WHY Massachusetts voted for McCain

"encouragement from the party leaders for pre-existing leaders to accept us?"

Yeah right, I'm suppose to trust a party that pulls the mic on delegates corrupting our political processes and freedoms!

This same party which has lied 935 times?!

What "concessions" EXACTLY did you recieve?

What "positions/offices" EXACTLY will we hold? (more fluff or real power?)

Then again, thats Massachuchetts for ya "The Collective State". Instead of standing on principle they bent over and got fucked.
 
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"encouragement from the party leaders for pre-existing leaders to accept us?"

Yeah right, I'm suppose to trust a party that pulls the mic on delegates corrupting our political processes and freedoms!

This same party which has lied 935 times?!

What "concessions" EXACTLY did you recieve?

What "positions/offices" EXACTLY will we hold? (more fluff or real power?)

Then again, thats Massachuchetts for ya "The Collective State"

This is the same political bullshit that happily yells out USA USA USA to drown out an Iraq War Vet during the convention as though he was doing something wrong!
 
i hear you

This is complete BS, the delegates job is to represent the voters who they are representing, God damnit, this is so dumb, RP could have had his votes known, what a waste of the 5% RP prolly has of the party......

look mass delegates i live in colorado and i have a deal for you , you can buy vail ski resorts for $1 dollar deal?? SWEET:) sell outs, these people are suckers for even believing these lying gop people!!!

THE COLORADO GOP are LIARS, the NATIONAL GOP ARE LIARS and I WILL TELL'EM TO THEIR FACES!!!!!!
 
Or we were the suckers thinking these guys were actual Ron Paul delegates.....

infuriates me to think there were some of us that were
working on getting Revolution A Manifesto to the hands
of non-Ron Paul delegates in the hopes to make them see
the light, yet OUR OWN delegates SELL US OUT!

F-ing unbelievable!
 
"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin


They are part of the problem with these treasonous acts...easily swayed and should be swinging. I am so sorry Ron Paul. I had higher expectations for these folks. The strong shall prevail the weak shall parish.
 
This reminds me of our Real Politics training. Did the delegates miss it? When you cause trouble for politicians, they will try three things on you.

1) Threaten you.
2) Try to explain away what they're doing.
3) Buy you off.

Sounds to me like all of these things happened. You fell for #3... they will offer you a "seat at the table" or to "advise them" - at which point you stop representing the people, and start representing the politicians instead. You then compromise your beliefs, and the box moves to the 'left'.

You played right into their hands. I wish they had heard this before they decided to sell us out. It is the wrong way, and we'll only make any headway if we do not compromise!

People, don't give up or be discouraged. Keep fighting. Learn from their mistakes, and don't ever, ever do it yourselves. Watch for it. Every one of us who remains active will have to make this decision at some point, and it won't be easy. But we can prevail.
 
WRONG! It would have shown exactly how many people are against McCain.

MsDoodahs....since the movement exsisted far before this? Why has nothing like this ever been done?

Because the internet did not exist.

We had no idea where each other were, or how many others with similar beliefs were out there.

Now, we do.
 
If you want to turn the focus in more constructive positive directions then recognize that the real question/problem here is why the delegations in a good number of states had no choice, by law or rule, but to vote McCain or abstain. The problem is with winner take all binding primaries. The following states have such primaries:
Arizona - McCain won with 47%
California - McCain won with 42%
Connecticut - McCain won with 52%
Delaware - McCain won with 45%
DC - McCain won with 68%
Florida - McCain won with 36%
Georgia - Huckabee won with 34%
Maryland - McCain won with 55%
Michigan - Romney won with 39%
Mississippi - McCain won with 78%
Missouri - McCain won with 33%
New Jersey - McCain won with 55%
New York - McCain won with 52%
Ohio - McCain won with 60%
Oklahoma - McCain won with 37%
South Carolina - McCain won with 33%
Texas - McCain won with 52% (winner take all if over 50%, but its a combined process where cong. dist.'s choose del by their results also, and any dist. with winner <50% goes proportional instead of winner take all)
Utah - Romney 89%
Vermont - McCain 71%
Virginia - McCain 50%
Wisconsin - McCain 55%

Now that's a fairly lengthy list of states. It includes many large states; it goes to the heart of why the GOP is so top down- grass roots choices outside the box ends up with no representation by rule. Obviously job 1 in those states is to get those rules changed if you'd like at least proportional primary representation. Better still, the caucus system elects unbound delegates who can make up their own minds based upon what the picture looks like in September, as opposed to being bound in early February. In comparison, the Dem's have exactly zero winner-take-all primaries. All of the above states reported unanimous McCain totals with just one exception- despite being against the rules Utah allowed 2 Romney votes through.

Most of the noise in these threads has been about MA & NV. In MA they have a proportional primary where the delegates are bound on the first ballot to vote in according to the primary proportion formula. Now Romney won there, McCain 2nd. Most proportional states have a minimum threshold of something like 15% or the candidate is awarded no delegates. Paul took 2.6% of the votes in MA, and I presume by rule that's why the only choices open to delegates (other than abstain) was either Romney or McCain. No others garnered as much as 5% even. Clearly even with a proportional primary system there is no representation in many cases for candidates with low percentages in the primary. Now Nevada has a caucus system; you've all heard about the controversy that developed there at the state convention. But even setting that aside I can't think of one single reason why NV delegates could be denied by rule a vote for the candidate of their choice in St. Paul. That state should be open to all-out war with the party, and the NV party brass fully deserves to completely shot down for not following their own rules, at least as far as I can tell from a distance.

Here's where the 15 Paul votes actually came from:
Alaska 5
Oregon 4
Washington 4
West Virginia 2

Followed by a list of states where at least some if not all of the Paul delegates held firm and abstained; note that in some of these states such as my own there was absolutely no basis in the rules to deny these unbound delegates the vote of their choice and there will be hell to pay for that- as long as McCain doesn't win. If McCain wins then the brass'll be telling the majority that the end justified the means. McCain must not win or everything reverts back to square one in terms of getting rules changed and dumping the neocon RINO's presently running the show:
Idaho 6
Maine 1
Minnesota 6
Nebraska 2
North Carolina 4
Pennsylvania 1
And an honorable mention for the 2 delegates from Oklahoma who voted Paul but the chair incorrectly recorded it as unanimous for McCain.

Now that's a total of 37. Not 200+. Even if the Nevada convention had been allowed to run it's course and swept for Paul 31 more makes 68. Minnesota by rights should have had 9 but the three elected from the state convention waffled and voted McCain, no real surprise as they were too deeply rooted in with the party mainstream, not something we wanted but the party disqualified the majority of those who wanted their names in the running from even being on the delegate ballot, we knew that would happen and submitted some candidates we knew would get through their filters in hopes they might come through with a Paul vote. None did, including the woman who delivered the invocation at the rally. Our people had been working hard in her congressional campaign but will reconsider that from here forward.
 
If you want to turn the focus in more constructive positive directions then recognize that the real question/problem here is why the delegations in a good number of states had no choice, by law or rule, but to vote McCain or abstain. The problem is with winner take all binding primaries. The following states have such primaries:
Arizona - McCain won with 47%
California - McCain won with 42%
Connecticut - McCain won with 52%
Delaware - McCain won with 45%
DC - McCain won with 68%
Florida - McCain won with 36%
Georgia - Huckabee won with 34%
Maryland - McCain won with 55%
Michigan - Romney won with 39%
Mississippi - McCain won with 78%
Missouri - McCain won with 33%
New Jersey - McCain won with 55%
New York - McCain won with 52%
Ohio - McCain won with 60%
Oklahoma - McCain won with 37%
South Carolina - McCain won with 33%
Texas - McCain won with 52% (winner take all if over 50%, but its a combined process where cong. dist.'s choose del by their results also, and any dist. with winner <50% goes proportional instead of winner take all)
Utah - Romney 89%
Vermont - McCain 71%
Virginia - McCain 50%
Wisconsin - McCain 55%

Now that's a fairly lengthy list of states. It includes many large states; it goes to the heart of why the GOP is so top down- grass roots choices outside the box ends up with no representation by rule. Obviously job 1 in those states is to get those rules changed if you'd like at least proportional primary representation. Better still, the caucus system elects unbound delegates who can make up their own minds based upon what the picture looks like in September, as opposed to being bound in early February. In comparison, the Dem's have exactly zero winner-take-all primaries. All of the above states reported unanimous McCain totals with just one exception- despite being against the rules Utah allowed 2 Romney votes through.

Most of the noise in these threads has been about MA & NV. In MA they have a proportional primary where the delegates are bound on the first ballot to vote in according to the primary proportion formula. Now Romney won there, McCain 2nd. Most proportional states have a minimum threshold of something like 15% or the candidate is awarded no delegates. Paul took 2.6% of the votes in MA, and I presume by rule that's why the only choices open to delegates (other than abstain) was either Romney or McCain. No others garnered as much as 5% even. Clearly even with a proportional primary system there is no representation in many cases for candidates with low percentages in the primary. Now Nevada has a caucus system; you've all heard about the controversy that developed there at the state convention. But even setting that aside I can't think of one single reason why NV delegates could be denied by rule a vote for the candidate of their choice in St. Paul. That state should be open to all-out war with the party, and the NV party brass fully deserves to completely shot down for not following their own rules, at least as far as I can tell from a distance.

Here's where the 15 Paul votes actually came from:
Alaska 5
Oregon 4
Washington 4
West Virginia 2

Followed by a list of states where at least some if not all of the Paul delegates held firm and abstained; note that in some of these states such as my own there was absolutely no basis in the rules to deny these unbound delegates the vote of their choice and there will be hell to pay for that- as long as McCain doesn't win. If McCain wins then the brass'll be telling the majority that the end justified the means. McCain must not win or everything reverts back to square one in terms of getting rules changed and dumping the neocon RINO's presently running the show:
Idaho 6
Maine 1
Minnesota 6
Nebraska 2
North Carolina 4
Pennsylvania 1
And an honorable mention for the 2 delegates from Oklahoma who voted Paul but the chair incorrectly recorded it as unanimous for McCain.

Now that's a total of 37. Not 200+. Even if the Nevada convention had been allowed to run it's course and swept for Paul 31 more makes 68. Minnesota by rights should have had 9 but the three elected from the state convention waffled and voted McCain, no real surprise as they were too deeply rooted in with the party mainstream, not something we wanted but the party disqualified the majority of those who wanted their names in the running from even being on the delegate ballot, we knew that would happen and submitted some candidates we knew would get through their filters in hopes they might come through with a Paul vote. None did, including the woman who delivered the invocation at the rally. Our people had been working hard in her congressional campaign but will reconsider that from here forward.

Great update of information indeed. At least we know that when push comes to shove some will just sit quietly. We need to do our best to have those FOR SURE voting delegates and alternates there next time. Even if they need to play the game to get into the national convention, to MAKE SURE and stick to the plan and make their votes count for Ron Paul no matter who gets pissed off or looks down on them. It is a public decision, not a top down style of voting.
 
Closing argument against primaries of any sort selecting delegates:

States that voted at 10%+ for Paul and delegate selection method-
Alaska - 17.2% - caucus system
Idaho - 23.8% - combined selection from proportional primary & caucus system
Kansas - 11.2% - caucus system
Maine - 18.4% - caucus system
Minnesota - 15.7% - caucus system
Montana - 24.6% - advisory primary is essentially a beauty contest; caucus system chooses unbound delegates
Nebraska - 13.0% - advisory primary is essentially a beauty contest; caucus system chooses unbound delegates
Nevada - 13.7% - caucus system
New Mexico - 14.0% - proportional primary
North Dakota - 21.4% - caucus system
Oregon - 14.5% - proportional primary
Pennsylvania - 15.8% - loophole primary
South Dakota - 16.5% - proportional primary
Washington - 20.8% - a three-way mix of the w-t-a primary at the CD level, proportional primary at the state level, & a caucus system

-no winner take all primaries yielded that 10%; the best showing among those strictly w-t-a states was Vermont at just 6.6%; the strong majority of these came in under 5%
-just 3 proportional primaries did so; it does get the voter out of w-t-a mentality in the voting booth
-all of the rest of the states coming in at 10%+ used a caucus system for some if not all of the delegate selection process- basically limiting the voting to those willing to commit a couple hours to the process on a weeknight. Every state that polls at a caucus came in at 10%+ with just two exceptions: Iowa right there at 9.9% and Colorado not too far behind at 8.4
 
Yes we had over 200 people at the RNC supporting us but most of those were alternates. At most we would have had 35 delegates vote total, maybe a little bit more but not much to make a huge impact.

I too was pissed off at the way the convention was ran and the way our delegates were treated. But I'm not going to attack them because I wasn't there nor do I know what the situation is in their local GOP. If the state GOP treated me like an outcast, then no way in hell would I vote for McCain. But if they were willing to work with you and allow for major influence within the party in the future, who to say we wouldn't be enticed by such an offer if it was sincere. Right now the Mass GOP is in such rotten shape THEY NEED Ron Paul supporters to build it back up again.

This is what working within the GOP means. If don't like it, don't do it. Leave and find another party. But to all those who want be on the "inside" you may think you're going to be a player, but your opponents think they're co-opting you as well. It's a very tricky thing and you're going to have a lot of moments where you're going to have to decide between principle and power or the illusion of power. Be wary and cautions and ready to stand up for what you believe in even if it may cost you your "status" otherwise being on the "inside" won't be worth what you have to give up. You've been warned.
 
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None did, including the woman who delivered the invocation at the rally. Our people had been working hard in her congressional campaign but will reconsider that from here forward.

In defense of Barb Davis White, she did not vote at all (in fact she was not present to vote from what I have been told) because she was put on the GOP the slate and afterward was told that she MUST vote would for McCain being on the slate. She did not want to vote for him, so she stayed away and the alternate took her spot - voting for McCain.
 
In defense of Barb Davis White, she did not vote at all (in fact she was not present to vote from what I have been told) because she was put on the GOP the slate and afterward was told that she MUST vote would for McCain being on the slate. She did not want to vote for him, so she stayed away and the alternate took her spot - voting for McCain.

OK, glad to hear that.
 
*quietly* yay WV... a zero turned into a theoretical 3, and ended up being a tangible 2. I don't know what happened to the third person, but hey... in a state where RP was eliminated in the first round of voting at the convention, that is a nice little footnote to the hard work of the people who were there.
 
I'm sure a lot of us felt just a tiny bit of the same kind of pressure when we tried to become national delegates at our state conventions.

In Georgia, when we tried to force a suspension of the rules at the state GOP convention, we had to stand up among all the delegates. There were about 150 of us spread out in a crowd of a thousand people in attendance. So many people were angry at us. Others less so, but it was very hard to take a stand right there in the middle of people who wanted us to go along and not make a scene.

I can only imagine what I would've felt in the midst of all the events of last week in Minnesota, being in a very tiny minority and trying to stand up to all that pressure.

I hope those of you complaining about MA's Ron Paul constituents actively tried to become state delegates to the national convention last spring.
 
You guys caved and there is nothing you can do to spin it.

To normal folks, like me, you actually lost ALL respect when you went back on your word.

I don't care if Ron Paul lost a gazillion to one, that one vote would have be mine...
 
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