The oficially **official** Trump vs. Biden "debate" thread

[ClaytonB]

That rare situation where you can use a meme without any words...

 

[acptulsa]

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

So, first you admit that the elect will be the elect because they won't be fooled. Then you say...

The point is that no one will escape the coming deception.

Fine. No one escapes. But the elect survive, right? So even though the deception is upon them, they aren't fooled. Give God the credit, say it was the elect, say the elect learned what God tried to teach us all, whomever gets the credit, the elect don't get suckered.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.

Why do you need everything to have that comic book flash? Supernatural means. Where does Paul say that? Paul was at the moment he wrote that trying to save souls through simple education. Aren't the elect clever enough to avoid falling for this ultimate deception? Are the elect all foolish enough to try to help the poor by demanding government steal money from people (who might otherwise donate it) and give it to a government that wastes 90% of it?

Boring old education can be pretty supernatural, if it falls on ground with enough wisdom and faith to make it grow.

Too many assumptions in your train of logic to suit me. Sorry.

For those of us who believe in Jesus, the purpose is to bring us closer to God, to cleanse us from sin, and to make us ready for eternity.

Exactly.

For everyone else, the purpose is destruction.

I don't think destruction is God's purpose. I think God loves us. I think God is Love. I think those who don't measure up don't necessarily draw God's ire. I read Matthew 6 and I feel like God's attitude could be, you had your fun, but you never grew up, and the next activity I have planned is just for the grown ups. So, I'm the Potter, and you're excused. Glad you enjoyed your reward. Good bye.

Vengeance is another thing I think plays too big a role in too much dogma.

God could force us to do anything, but He doesn't. I reject any dogma which seems to me to ignore that. The religious struggle so hard with the question, why did God create the devil? Why does the smith stick the metal in the forge? To shape and temper it, right? Inescapable deceptions and supernatural forces make for fun comic books. But dogma that distracts one from the task of cleansing oneself and preparing for a society where everyone is respectable and trustworthy is a very, very bad dogma. It's a time to roll up the newspaper-level bad dogma.

 

[Matt4Liberty]

You can vote, or not, however you want, keeping in mind that when you do so you are giving your express consent.

I personally do not consent, and I refuse to be contributory, so therefore no vote from me.


Donald Trump On The Record

That's always such a foolish argument. When whatever agency that's going to become the modern day equivalent of the KGB, ŠtB, STASI, etc... kicks your door in at 2AM, you will not be able to tell them you didn't provide "implied consent".

In post war Czechoslovakia, Edvard Beneš was a terrible president. That doesn't change the fact that if more people stood behind him, Klement Gottwald wouldn't have been able to complete his communist coup.

Wow, so this was coordinated.

But why the formality of setting him up to do poorly in a debate?

Why not have the DNC hold a traditional primary? Or was that the point, to avoid one?

Whoever they have chosen probably couldn't survive the primary campaign enough to win the general. Without the scrutiny of the primary, that individual will have an easier go, especially with only a few months left before the election.

Yesterday, the SCOTUS ruled, with Trump appointed judges, to overturn the "Chevron Doctrine".

That would not have happened with judges appointed by a leftist president, Clinton or Biden or whomever.

It was the Chevron doctrine that allowed government agencies like OSHA to mandate lockdowns, mask wearing and forced jabs.

40 years of tyranny by regulation was struck a giant blow.

That is real, not overheated conspiracy theories.

It is one of the five reasons I will vote for Trump this fall.

Same. People need some pragmatism. Learn from the leftists with the small steps. Trump did some good and plenty bad. Doesn't mean we weren't better off than with cankles.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

https://x.com/USAB4L/status/1807105159484555327

 

[acptulsa]

Whoever they have chosen probably couldn't survive the primary campaign enough to win the general. Without the scrutiny of the primary, that individual will have an easier go, especially with only a few months left before the election.

Or they have chosen Trump, and Biden is making Trump's job easier than falling off a log.

Same. People need some pragmatism. Learn from the leftists with the small steps. Trump did some good and plenty bad. Doesn't mean we weren't better off than with cankles.

Yup. That's the brand of pragmatism that led us into this dumpster fire. I'd recognize it anywhere.

 

[jkr]

orange man devours stack of skin more news at 11

 

[acptulsa]

orange man devours stack of skin more news at 11

 

[unknown]

https://x.com/TIME/status/1806788544410615905

 

[ClaytonB]

None of what you wrote here is connected to anything I have written in this thread:

God bless Paul, the old fart. He never doubted that God created the devil to serve His purposes, unlike some of the people who have parsed and picked his oft-translated little missives apart for centuries. Some people act like that devil and God are co-equals. No wonder some Christians get a bad name. Heresy as dogma. Admittedly it makes the Bible more like a comic book to have an adversary that dangerous, but it's still heresy as dogma.

...

So God sends in the antichrist to help determine who received not the love of truth, then He's ready to gather the sheep in. Right? Or are you saying that the elect will be selected, and have their own separate rapture, and be gathered in, and then the antichrist will arise from nowhere and will hang around filling everyone left behind full of pretty lies?

Seriously, just go read your Bible. You put on a face to the world that you really know it well and you're a hard-boiled type who doesn't accept "inferences". So be it, don't accept my inferences, but at least know what your Bible says. You don't even know what it says, let alone what can be directly and correctly inferred from what it says.

Because that's not how Jesus described the rapture at all. The Lake of Fire got mentioned with minimal delay, that day on the hill. And the antichrist wasn't mentioned at all.

He explicitly mentions false messiahs, that is, antichrists. The Antichrist (capital-A) will be one of them. Jesus mentions several of Daniel's prophecies, and one of the most important topics of Daniel's prophecy is ... the Antichrist, which he calls the Beast. There is no great mystery here unless you want to intentionally bludgeon the clear meaning of the text and pretend that you can't know that the Beast and the Antichrist are appellations of the very same individual, just as the Serpent, Dragon and Satan are all appellations of the very same figure.

I certainly hope what Paul was trying to convey in crude Aramaic (or whatever it was) was at least that well aligned with what Jesus Himself said with His Own Lips.

Yeah, not "crude Aramaic", rather, highly educated Greek. Prior to his conversion, Paul was the equivalent of a post-doc research fellow in law... except the law he was a PhD in was Torah. Which is why there is nothing crude about his writing style.

 

[acptulsa]

Yeah, not "crude Aramaic", rather, highly educated Greek. Prior to his conversion, Paul was the equivalent of a post-doc research fellow in law... except the law he was a PhD in was Torah. Which is why there is nothing crude about his writing style.

Yeah, I've studied ancient Greek. It's a pretty crude tool. English it ain't. There's nothing supernatural about it.

You know you're just nitpicking.

 

[ClaytonB]

So, first you admit that the elect will be the elect because they won't be fooled. Then you say...

Fine. No one escapes. But the elect survive, right? So even though the deception is upon them, they aren't fooled. Give God the credit, say it was the elect, say the elect learned what God tried to teach us all, whomever gets the credit, the elect don't get suckered.

Why do you need everything to have that comic book flash? Supernatural means. Where does Paul say that?

Because what is coming is strictly supernatural. Beyond human ability. Beyond human understanding. The heavens (both holy and wicked) poured out upon the earth. Hell vomiting itself out upon the earth. All of this is coming, and much more. The cataclysmic and strictly supernatural language of Scripture on these points could not possibly be clearer. If you want to take a Thomas Jefferson exacto knife and dice up your Bible, you can make it seem to say something different, but you're going to need to cut out about 90% of it. That the end of the Age will be supernatural is directly stated in the text:

Isa:2:10 Go into the rocks, hide in the ground from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty!
Isa:2:11 The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled and the pride of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.
Isa:2:12 The LORD Almighty has a day in store for all the proud and lofty, for all that is exalted (and they will be humbled),
Isa:2:13 for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty, and all the oaks of Bashan,
Isa:2:14 for all the towering mountains and all the high hills,
Isa:2:15 for every lofty tower and every fortified wall,
Isa:2:16 for every trading ship and every stately vessel.
Isa:2:17 The arrogance of man will be brought low and the pride of men humbled; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day,
Isa:2:18 and the idols will totally disappear.
Isa:2:19 Men will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth.
Isa:2:20 In that day men will throw away to the rodents and bats their idols of silver and idols of gold, which they made to worship.
Isa:2:21 They will flee to caverns in the rocks and to the overhanging crags from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth.
Isa:2:22 Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?

Notice that Isaiah already told us that this event will be the splendor of God's majesty. Thus, the Day that the Lord has in store, the Day when human pride will be humbled, is a Day when God will display the splendor of his majesty, something that is strictly beyond human knowledge and capability (Is. 55:8,9), which is what modern people mean in English when they say "supernatural". Let's keep pulling on this particular thread:

Isa:40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

When did something like this happen before? How about Mount Sinai:

Exo:16:10 And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exo:20:18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance
Exo:20:19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."

So, Isaiah is telling us that this is going to happen again, except, this time, it will be the whole world who sees it. "And every eye will see him" (Rev. 1:7)

This event is going to be even more disruptive and more terrifying than Mount Sinai was:

Rev:6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
Rev:6:13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
Rev:6:14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Rev:6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
Rev:6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev:6:17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Now you know that John is actually quoting Isaiah in this passage!

Jesus says of it:

Mat:24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.
Mat:24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

And:

Mat:24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
Mat:24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
Mat:24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

But yeah, who knows, maybe angels being sent with a loud trumpet call isn't supernatural, and will just appear to us like any other Tuesday...

What else does Scripture say about this portending event of the darkening of the Sun and the Moon transforming into blood?

Joe:2:28 "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.
Joe:2:29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
Joe:2:30 I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
Joe:2:31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

And what else?:

Hag:2:6 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land.
Hag:2:7 I will shake all nations, and the desired of all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory,' says the LORD Almighty.

Hebrews clarifies:

Heb:12:26 At that time [Mount Sinai] his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."
Heb:12:27 The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken--that is, created things--so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb:12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,

God destroyed the world by water. Jesus says of the coming Day:

Mat:24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.

Note that "from the beginning of the world" includes the Flood of Noah. So, the coming cataclysm will be more distressing than the global Flood was! Also known as "any given Tuesday", right?

2Pe:3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
2Pe:3:4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."
2Pe:3:5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
2Pe:3:6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
2Pe:3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Is the picture starting to come clear? The coming Day of the Lord is like no other day, like nothing that anyone has ever experienced:

Isa:48:5 Therefore I told you these things long ago; before they happened I announced them to you so that you could not say, 'My idols did them; my wooden image and metal god ordained them.'
Isa:48:6 You have heard these things; look at them all. Will you not admit them? "From now on I will tell you of new things, of hidden things unknown to you.
Isa:48:7 They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew of them.'

If the word "supernatural" does not describe that, then we are not using the same dictionary. Call it "comic book flash" if that helps you sleep at night, but what is coming is something that no one has ever seen, ever heard or ever imagined. That is the Day of the Lord, and the Scripture is crystal-clear in its many descriptions of it.

Aren't the elect clever enough to avoid falling for this ultimate deception?

No! See 1 Cor. 1:26-29, already cited. We are but sheep. ALL WILL FALL, but for the sheep. No one, absolutely no one, will escape. Cleverness itself is just clay in the hands of the potter to sharpen, harden and strengthen the coming delusion! No one, but no one will escape! Only by the salvation of Almighty God will anyone escape. That's what the text says, no matter how far you bury your ostrich-head in the sand.

I don't think destruction is God's purpose.

Except the text explicitly states it is his purpose, 2 Peter 3 (whole chapter, esp. verse 7.)

Vengeance is another thing I think plays too big a role in too much dogma.

Once again, the text directly states that God is coming back for vengeance:

2Th:1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th:1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th:1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th:1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The Gospel is a revenge tale, make no mistake!

 

[acptulsa]

Um, I said there was nothing supernatural about it? I, who mentioned that the Lake of Fire would suddenly open up?

What I'm saying to you is, we are expected to effect our own worthiness for salvation. The salvation itself will be supernatural. But though we are expected to do things in order to get through the strait door, nothing that God expects of us is supernatural, obviously, because He knows He didn't create any creatures capable of that.

And what we are expected to do is reject known evils and try to help others. So when you say, 'Trump is no kind of "solution" to any of the problems in America,' it makes me think a thing I could do which might cause God to smile upon me is vote for RFKJr. God needs no help from me in pulling off these events, so I'll just fight the devil as best I can. I don't care to aid the devil here and there out of some half-baked conviction that this helps God with His purpose. That's entirely too like the liberal "by any means necessary" trope, which they like to use as an excuse to pave the road to hell for people (with their allegedly good intentions).

The Gospel is a revenge tale, make no mistake!

So it is. But is that because God is vengeful, or because He's trying to teach us how not to be vengeful creatures?

Maybe even a little of both..? Don't know, but I do know He spent a lot of time trying to convince us to turn the other cheek. Makes me think He emphasized it because He wants to curb it, not because He wants to get it.

 

[ClaytonB]

... a thing I could do which might cause God to smile upon me is vote for RFKJr.

It's your ballot, and your conscience. Cast it how you see fit.

He spent a lot of time trying to convince us to turn the other cheek. Makes me think He emphasized it because He wants to curb it, not because He wants to get it.

The Bible explains the issue quite clearly. Human vengeance is carnal and worthless. But vengeance against wickedness is the very thing that this world needs, it's the absence of vengeance against wickedness that permits Satan to keep the circus going. And it will keep going until the Day. Then, it will all come to a very fiery end, in one day. And yes, it will be vengeance, God's vengeance against his enemies.

Nahum 1:2 The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and maintains his wrath against his enemies.

 

[acptulsa]

The Bible explains the issue quite clearly. Human vengeance is carnal and worthless. But vengeance against wickedness is the very thing that this world needs...

Exactly my point. If we have faith that He will get vengeance for us, then we can turn away from that concern and learn how to love instead.

Is that some kind of indication of how He feels about it personally? Because I get more of a potter smashing defective pots vibe, in what few Bible verses even pretend to address that exact, very particular subject. "They have their reward." Done.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe He will go to the trouble to resurrect millions of people just to dump them in the lava because He wants the vengeance, not just to let us see Him keep His word and to put the fear of God in us once and for all. I don't know. Don't care. Above my pay grade.

It's your ballot, and your conscience. Cast it how you see fit.

Neither of the crooked clowns in that debate are worthy of it.

 

[acptulsa]

 

[Matt4Liberty]

Or they have chosen Trump, and Biden is making Trump's job easier than falling off a log.



Yup. That's the brand of pragmatism that led us into this dumpster fire. I'd recognize it anywhere.

Yes, the leftists are pragmatic when it comes to getting their agenda through. Small steps and before you know it, they completed a cultural revolution without going through it Mao's way. You on the other hand just expect to wait and not give them "implied consent" like that's something they worry about.

 

[acptulsa]

I don't give a damn about implied consent. I care about breaking the uniparty. I said even in this thread that I was voting for RFKJr, even though he's hardly perfect.

Try reading the thread. I'm immune to that consent crap. I don't have to avoid voting to withdraw my consent from the Demopublicans. You're supposed to be boring me with the tired old "throwing your vote away" bullshit.

 

[Occam's Banana]

It is one of the five reasons I will vote for Trump this fall.

Out of curiosity, what are the "Five Planks of Anti Federalist"?

 

[Anti Federalist]

Out of curiosity, what are the "Five Planks of Anti Federalist"?

LOL.

1 - Judicial appointments, including to SCOTUS.

2 - A track record of willingness to push back on the regulation state.

3 - End war in Ukraine.

4 - Support for, or at least no open hostility to homeschooling, would hope for veto or resistance to new federal efforts to highly restrict homeschooling.

5 - No open hostility to the Second Amendment, in fact, very positive support, in spite of bump stocks and red flags and past comments.

ETA

6 - Pushback on the transqueeer insanity.

Those reasons are enough to throw a vote his way, I think.

Does that make up for stop and frisks, his support of "Warp Speed" and many other nightmares?

No, of course not.

Just another case of who will hurt me the least.

 

[Occam's Banana]

CLIP from SYSTEM UPDATE #291:

Media Lies About Biden's Impairment Exposed After Debate
https://rumble.com/v54hw46-media-lies-about-bidens-impairment-exposed-after-debate.html
{Glenn Greenwald | 29 June 2024}

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