NY middle school sex ed class gone wild

[jmdrake]

From the OP article:

According to the parent, who wished to remain anonymous, boys were told to determine whether girls are promiscuous by the way they dress or the number of boys they date.

“We don’t judge people like that in our family,” she said. “We don’t call women names because of what they wear or who they date.”

Okay. I want to know from all libertines except dannno. Do you really support that? If this was some right wing Christian school teaching girls "Don't dress slutty" or their boys to "Stay away from girls like this because they might be sluts" this place would be up in arms.

 

[jmdrake]

The article in the OP completely mis-represented the exercises, which I had a feeling of from the beginning, but I couldn't pin down what those exercises were exactly.

Thanks to some other posts in the thread which have clarified this topic for me, I have figured out that:

1) The lesbian kissing exercise did not include kissing, just asking, and was to show them how much more uncomfortable it is for gay people than straight people so they may learn to have some level of compassion for people who don't have the same sexual attractions that they do. Maybe their life is already hard enough and maybe they shouldn't try and make it harder by treating them like shit or shunning them.

The article explained it just the way you did. And it's still just as wrong. But I'm sure you'd disagree. You're down with the whole guy calling in about his dogs things. I guess next kids should engage in exercises where they tell their classmates they had sex with Fido in order to have more compassion.

2) The slut-spotting exercise was in fact to show that just because girls dress or act a certain way doesn't necessarily mean they want to have sex, or that they have a lot of sex. This is important for young men to know to help prevent incidents like Steubensville rape, no?

IIRC you were defending the idea that it might not have been rape at all anyway. So....not sure if you're even being serious.

The word slut is a derogatory term that shouldn't be used and girls who wish to should be able to choose to engage in sexual relationships without being treated like shit or shunned by their peers, especially to point out the double standard that exists with boys.

Got it. Girls should feel okay to dress slutty. Guys shouldn't rape them...unless their passed out drunk and maybe said yes earlier...or....screw it. Follow a simple rule. Don't use sex as a recreational drug. Then there's no potential rape charges, no unwanted pregnancies, no disease etc. And yes, I know you disagree and you have the right to raise your kids that way. (Little Dannnos? God help us!) If anything, this just reinforces that we should abolish public schools.

 

[Antischism]

The ignorance in this thread is astounding to me. Then again, I'm not religious and I'm in my 20's so my view on these issues is most likely different from most posters here. I'm with Dannno on this topic.

 

[Origanalist]

The ignorance in this thread is astounding to me. Then again, I'm not religious and I'm in my 20's so my view on these issues is most likely different from most posters here. I'm with Dannno on this topic.

Ignorance? Lol.

 

[Athan]

And they call me crazy because of all muh gunz n gear. Why no NY school presentation on being a gearqueer!?

 

[jmdrake]

The ignorance in this thread is astounding to me. Then again, I'm not religious and I'm in my 20's so my view on these issues is most likely different from most posters here. I'm with Dannno on this topic.

Still in your 20s? Good. There's still time for you to learn. The first thing you need to learn is that it's possible for people to have different opinions without either side being "ignorant". The fact is that nobody has definitely shown what forms human sexuality. The APA has admitted as such. So if anything it's "ignorant" to claim the issue is settled. For another, it's clear that the best think is not to have the government dictating the issue. Just a few weeks ago there was a mega-thread against a pro abstinence sex education program that supposedly included "slut shaming". Well this one includes "slut spotting" and somehow it's all good because it's coming from a liberal point of view? Ummm....okay. Just more BS from an out of control government. In a free market you should be able to choose the school that best reflects your values.

 

[Nirvikalpa]

Ummmm....WTF? The OP wasn't complaining about "terminology" (well with the exception of "slut" I suppose). Really, you want your son learning about "slut spotting"? I would think most feminists would be against this as well. That's probably why they threw a little "lesbian kissing" in there, to appease the feminazis. Don't trivialize the issue or attack parents for being justifiably incensed.

Excuse me, as resident feminazi, I am appalled (and totally not appeased). Take it back!

 

[dannno]

You're down with the whole guy calling in about his dogs things.

I thought it was funny as hell. As far as whether I'm 'down' with it, I think I wouldn't want to be friends with the guy, but I probably wouldn't call the cops on him and have him arrested, either.


jmdrake is referring to one of the funniest loveline episodes, ever:

http://www.lovelinetapes.com/shows/?id=94&h=YmU2YzkzNzY

 

[jmdrake]

I thought it was funny as hell. As far as whether I'm 'down' with it, I think I wouldn't want to be friends with the guy, but I probably wouldn't call the cops on him and have him arrested, either.


jmdrake is referring to one of the funniest loveline episodes, ever:

http://www.lovelinetapes.com/shows/?id=94&h=YmU2YzkzNzY

Okay. Let's go with what I think we agree on. I don't think the guy on that show should be arrested or beat up or spat on or in any other way mistreated. With me so far? Good. Now I don't think kids should have to go through some sort of exercise where they pretend to be a guy that likes sex with dogs just so that they can understand that such a person shouldn't be arrested, beat up, spat on or in any other way mistreated.

 

[jmdrake]

Excuse me, as resident feminazi, I am appalled (and totally not appeased). Take it back!

Yikes! Don't tie me up and beat me or throw me in that briar patch! Just to be clear, I don't think you have to be a right wingnut to think that there's something wrong with a "slut spotting" exercise.

 

[V3n]

You don't know what you're talking about.

The APA has said straight up that there is no conclusive evidence as to what determines sexuality. So it's unscientific (and dishonest at this point) for you to pretend it's a settled issue.

How old were you when you decided to be straight?

edit: then I got to the second page:

Still in your 20s? Good. There's still time for you to learn. The first thing you need to learn is that it's possible for people to have different opinions without either side being "ignorant". The fact is that nobody has definitely shown what forms human sexuality. The APA has admitted as such. So if anything it's "ignorant" to claim the issue is settled. For another, it's clear that the best think is not to have the government dictating the issue. Just a few weeks ago there was a mega-thread against a pro abstinence sex education program that supposedly included "slut shaming". Well this one includes "slut spotting" and somehow it's all good because it's coming from a liberal point of view? Ummm....okay. Just more BS from an out of control government. In a free market you should be able to choose the school that best reflects your values.

I'll agree with this.

 

[dannno]

IIRC you were defending the idea that it might not have been rape at all anyway. So....not sure if you're even being serious.

I actually thought they probably deserved some jail time because I think if a woman falls asleep and doesn't give express permission that you shouldn't have sexual contact with a person, especially one you're not dating or having that type of relationship with, while they are asleep, and they should have the right to use the law to seek justice. That doesn't mean they always should use the law to seek 'justice', if their intention was to have sex with these guys while inebriated then I don't see what the big deal was - until, that is, they took pictures and spread them around the social networks. Honestly, I think that is the only reason she brought charges against them. But she couldn't bring charges against them defaming her character so she did what she could and brought rape charges against them - and technically what they did was wrong.

However.

I don't personally think that these guys are dangerous or would have necessarily raped anybody else ever in the future - I think they were a victim of their own circumstance that they created where they hurt this girl's feelings so bad and she didn't know how to get back at them. I really don't think she gave a rats ass that the guy's finger ended up in her vagina, she's probably had a ton of guys fingers in her vagina while she's been inebriated, I think she was hurt by the fallout from the photos.

Got it. Girls should feel okay to dress slutty. Guys shouldn't rape them...unless their passed out drunk and maybe said yes earlier...or....screw it. Follow a simple rule. Don't use sex as a recreational drug. Then there's no potential rape charges, no unwanted pregnancies, no disease etc. And yes, I know you disagree and you have the right to raise your kids that way. (Little Dannnos? God help us!) If anything, this just reinforces that we should abolish public schools.

Sex is very complex and entails so many different types of energies and emotions that I don't think we will ever wrap our heads around it completely. But I do know that people will continue to 'use sex as a recreational drug' indefinitely, and we need to strive to figure out the best way to handle it so it is a positive energy force and not a negative one.

 

[jmdrake]

How old were you when you decided to be straight?

How old was I when I decided to be right handed? That doesn't mean being right handed is an immutable characteristic. How old was I when I decided to speak English? Really, that's the lamest argument on the planet.

 

[V3n]

How old was I when I decided to be right handed? That doesn't mean being right handed is an immutable characteristic. How old was I when I decided to speak English? Really, that's the lamest argument on the planet.

If you're right handed, and it gets injured, you can learn to be left handed. You can learn another language. Do you think you could honestly learn to love dick?

 

[jmdrake]

I actually thought they probably deserved some jail time because I think if a woman falls asleep and doesn't give express permission that you shouldn't have sexual contact with a person, especially one you're not dating or having that type of relationship with, while they are asleep, and they should have the right to use the law to seek justice. That doesn't mean they always should use the law to seek justice, if their intention was to have sex with these guys while inebriated then I don't see what the big deal was - until, that is, they took pictures and spread them around the social networks. Honestly, I think that is the only reason she brought charges against them. But she couldn't bring charges against them defaming her character so she did what she could and brought rape charges against them - and technically what they did was wrong.

However.

I don't personally think that these guys are dangerous or would have necessarily raped anybody else ever in the future - I think they were a victim of their own circumstance that they created where they hurt this girl's feelings so bad and she didn't know how to get back at them. I really don't think she gave a rats ass that the guy's finger ended up in her vagina, she's probably had a ton of guys fingers in her vagina while she's been inebriated, I think she was hurt by the fallout from the photos.

Okay. Thanks for clearing that up (I think). But it seems you've undermined your whole "slut spotting exercise could have prevented the Stuebbenville episode" point. Seems you decided that...maybe...she was a slut. So....the exercise could have helped because......?

Sex is very complex and entails so many different types of energies and emotions that I don't think we will ever wrap our heads around it completely. But I do know that people will continue to 'use sex as a recreational drug' indefinitely, and we need to strive to figure out the best way to handle it so it is a positive energy force and not a negative one.

Agreed. And since it is a complex topic it's best that the state not hand down a "cookie cutter" approach through our brainwashing factories that are called "public schools". And sure, some will use it as a recreational drug. Some won't. A lot of that will depend on parenting.

 

[jmdrake]

If you're right handed, and it gets injured, you can learn to be left handed. You can learn another language. Do you think you could honestly learn to love dick?

That happens in prison all the time. Edit: And this is a silly game you are playing. I would not want to be a cannibal either. I'm appalled at the idea. That doesn't mean that I'm incapable of eating human flesh.

 

[V3n]

That happens in prison all the time. Edit: And this is a silly game you are playing. I would not want to be a cannibal either. I'm appalled at the idea. That doesn't mean that I'm incapable of eating human flesh.

Meh, and I'm tired of playing too. I wrote what I wrote above before I had read the second page of posts. I'd like to agree with you on what I agree with, and agree to disagree on the other points.

 

[moostraks]

If you're right handed, and it gets injured, you can learn to be left handed. You can learn another language. Do you think you could honestly learn to love dick?

Have you ever raised a teenager? NO....being a teenager does not count as raising one. They are contrarians built with an urge to do the exact opposite of what their parents request of them. It serves to help sever the ties of childhood to adulthood and foster their independence. That does not mean they inherit some god given wisdom and everything contrary to parental advice is wise or safe to do.

So you put college age mentors in their telling them about how their parents can't stop them and make all the crap they watch on tv seem acceptable when they are flooded with hormones they don't have the slightest idea how to control. It is peer pressuring and the psychologists at the school know this. So after this little teaching experiment, did they have to raise up a little junior for which they were on call for from their sexual promiscuity? Or did they get a simulated experience of having an abortion??? Watch any videos on abortions performed?

This was a poor decision on the part of management and if they thought it was such a good idea why did they not inform the parents? Two options on that one imo, they felt it was their right to do what they please as the children are under their control or that the parents would complain and it was more important that this was taught (which goes back to reason 1). Thing is that a middle schooler who takes off with this information and suffers ill consequences is the parents responsibility. Of course social services is always there to lend a hand for the unruliness inspired by these types of indoctrination exercises...

 

[dannno]

Okay. Thanks for clearing that up (I think). But it seems you've undermined your whole "slut spotting exercise could have prevented the Stuebbenville episode" point. Seems you decided that...maybe...she was a slut. So....the exercise could have helped because......?

Well you make a good point in that this girl had a past history of being promiscuous so this lesson may not have helped since they already knew based on her past actions - except that they may have made the point that just because a girl has had a lot of sex doesn't mean she wants to have sex right now with ___________.... except that her actions did appear that she wanted such...however I guess I was just using Steubensville as a generic story of guys thinking it is ok to 'do what they want with sluts' and how this lesson would may help them respect women who choose to make the decision to be sexual a little more.

I mean, I think you'd disagree about 'respecting' this girl's decision to pass out drunk and have sex with multiple guys, but I mean respect as far as her peers respecting her person and not disparaging her personally.

 

[Nirvikalpa]

It was assumed she had a history of being promiscuous - from the media. Her actions did appear she wanted such... what?

Remind me to never drink at a libertarian function ever again.

---------

Grown men calling 12-16 year old girls "sluts" is never entertaining.
Grown women calling 12-16 year old girls "sluts" is never entertaining.

"Slut shaming" is wrong (for both sexes). Shaming a man and woman for wanting to remain a virgin until marriage is also wrong.

A woman dressing provocatively =/= her losing ownership of her body, and her explicitly giving you consent to hurt her/touch her/etc.
A 15 year old being curious about sex and his/her body does not make them a slut.

We're sexual beings and we are intimate with our reproductive organs starting in infancy (come on parents, you've never had your little boy play with himself? Freud's psychosexual stages have some merit...). If you ever worked in a daycare, or had your own children, you'd see just how curious kids are with their bodies...

Stifling it isn't helping either. I've seen parents treat their children like dogs. "No" isn't working. "That's disgusting!" isn't working, either.

When parents refuse to sit their children down and have the talk with them, they are opening the door for the state to do so. It's that simple. The biology of sex is amazing. What's more amazing is that in this culture where information is at your fingertips, I have been asked in person and PMd questions about sex by 19-28 year olds, and all tend to stem from a shameful standpoint - "I don't know if this is normal or not, but..." Why do adults still not understand the reproductive system and are still so ashamed of themselves?

Makes me so sad.