I don't believe in Jesus Christ

[Terry1]

Whenever I hear or see someone say "I don't believe in Jesus", it always leads me to believe there's something about themselves or what and how they've chosen to live that they don't want to change and they know that believing in God and Jesus entails just that.

I don't engage in debate with people who say these things because they want someone to convince them that what they're doing is right, when in their mind and heart they know it's wrong, but ignore it. They'd rather try to rationalize on a secular level as to why they're a "moral" creature than to believe spiritually as to why they're not.

It's a futile thing IMO to engage these people until God Himself does it in His own way and time with them--if God will ever even bother with them knowing beforehand whether they will come to Him or not.

Pascal's Wager is not without it's merit.

 

[RJB]

Try going to a Catholic School when you are five years old having the same name as the Son of Satan.

That one stung me. My dad worked for the Army and I went to 6 or 7 different schools, and dealt with something similar. Kids and teachers can very be cruel. After a stint in the Marines, I went to college with an unexplainable knot in my belly. It dawned on me I was expecting anyone to start a fight with me in the halls, but then I realized I was an adult and those days were gone. Until I got on the internet

Our stereotypes tend to be based on the loudest most obnoxious of a group. I have to remind myself not all atheist are like Shifference, most are nice people like yourself. Most Calvinists aren't like Sola comes across either. I also have a feeling if we were to meet face to face over a beer like Oyarde suggests, Sola and Shifference are probably pleasant people. Sometimes I need a break from the internet for a few months, It brings out the worst in me as well.

I will say when I was an atheist, I realized despite my aversion to Christianity, there were only a handful of Christians I found to be annoying. Since becoming a Christian, I still find that handful to be annoying. I find every group has annoying people, including New agey people. (I live in a very "progressive" area.)

I guess what I'm trying to say, is don't let frailties of humans shape your opinion of God. I was an atheist/agnostic for fifteen years. I understand most of your arguments. For me it came down to proof. There is power in prayer if you listen for God. His love is tangible like nothing else I've experienced. His love made me a believer.

Not trying to lecture you but your posts hit home due to some similiarities. And again I'd be glad to share one of my homebrews with any of you.

 

[Brett85]

Jesus Christ doesn't believe in atheists.

 

[cajuncocoa]

Jesus Christ doesn't believe in atheists.

I don't believe that's true, TC.

I think Jesus believes in everyone, and He holds out hope that all will come to believe in Him.

 

[Cabal]

Jesus Christ doesn't believe in atheists.

Then again, atheists aren't threatening Jesus with eternal damnation and suffering if he doesn't.

Wait, this sounds familiar. What else uses threats of violence to coerce obedience? I think it starts with an S.

 

[Brett85]

Then again, atheists aren't threatening Jesus with eternal damnation and suffering if he doesn't.

Wait, this sounds familiar. What else uses threats of violence to coerce obedience? I think it starts with an S.

Well, I would say that that doctrine comes more from church tradition than from the Bible, but I don't want to turn this into a thread about annihilationism. So if you want to discuss that we could discuss it through private messages.

 

[Terry1]

Then again, atheists aren't threatening Jesus with eternal damnation and suffering if he doesn't.

Wait, this sounds familiar. What else uses threats of violence to coerce obedience? I think it starts with an S.

What decent parent wouldn't threaten their child with punishment for playing with fire?

What other promises eternal life in paradise for those He loves if they're true, loving and obedient children.

What other still performs miracles of healing, and abundance and delivers faithfully. An atheist wouldn't know now would they. Too bad for you.

 

[VIDEODROME]

WTF thread bump

 

[Cabal]

What decent parent wouldn't threaten their child with punishment for playing with fire?

What other promises eternal life in paradise for those He loves if they're true, loving and obedient children.

What other still performs miracles of healing, and abundance and delivers faithfully. An atheist wouldn't know now would they. Too bad for you.

If one requires threats of abuse to persuade a child not to burn themselves with fire, I'd have to raise objection to the claim of "decent parent". Children are highly underestimated by adults. The ability to reason is adopted quite early in a human life--age 3 or 4 tends to be typical I believe. In any case, what are you going to do? Beat the child if they end up burning themselves? Frontal lobe development is the result of risk taking. In other words, children learn from experience. I'm not suggesting a child should be allowed to press their face into a hot stove, obviously, but neither do I think fearmongering is a admirable or healthy parental strategy.

But if you apply this sort of protective logic consistently, then it follows you should probably be advocating a larger, more 'protective' (read: oppressive) State, lest us witless fools go around getting hurt, and making mistakes.

Moreover, the analogy you're using here is ultimately rather inapplicable, as you're comparing the objective fact that high temperatures of fire can cause severe injury to human flesh with religious beliefs.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I don't believe that's true, TC.

I think Jesus believes in everyone, and He holds out hope that all will come to believe in Him.

Romans 1 teaches that atheists don't actually exist. Everyone knows deep down that there is a being greater than themselves that created them.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Romans 1 teaches that atheists don't actually exist. Everyone knows deep down that there is a being greater than themselves that created them.

Actually, not only do they know that a God exists, but they know that THE God exists. Every person knows that Christianity is true. God has revealed just enough of Himself to them that they are now without excuse, and He gave His law to man to further bring out their sinfulness.

 

[Terry1]

If one requires threats of abuse to persuade a child not to burn themselves with fire, I'd have to raise objection to the claim of "decent parent". Children are highly underestimated by adults. The ability to reason is adopted quite early in a human life--age 3 or 4 tends to be typical I believe. In any case, what are you going to do? Beat the child if they end up burning themselves? Frontal lobe development is the result of risk taking. In other words, children learn from experience. I'm not suggesting a child should be allowed to press their face into a hot stove, obviously, but neither do I think fearmongering is a admirable or healthy parental strategy.

But if you apply this sort of protective logic consistently, then it follows you should probably be advocating a larger, more 'protective' (read: oppressive) State, lest us witless fools go around getting hurt, and making mistakes.

Moreover, the analogy you're using here is ultimately rather inapplicable, as you're comparing the objective fact that high temperatures of fire can cause severe injury to human flesh with religious beliefs.

You can't see because you're blind right now by your own choice as to just how stupid, ignorant and dumb mankind is and that is because of what sin did to mankind, making them totally ignorant of the real dangers that exist in this world. So then as we become adults, we become more aware of what the physical dangers are in this world and people try to teach their children what to beware of by their own knowledge and experience.

Mankind, whether children or adult only understand something is wrong because they're taught and they learn. Some are smarter than others and simply obey while most have to be deprived of something they want in order to understand what they did was wrong. That deprivation can include a multitude of things regarding what children or adults value most in life. For children, it can be their toys and privileges, for adults it can pretty much be the same. If you never discipline your children, you're only hurting them more in the long run. Depriving them of things in order to show them that what they're doing was wrong is not "abuse", but rather love for them.

God works in that same way, only He does it His way knowing what will lead mankind to repentance or changing their minds about the way they're living and what they're doing that's harmful to their very souls and eternal destiny. Atheists can not understand how this works because they admittedly refuse to believe in God for their own reason which always vary according to what they value most in their lives.

 

[Cabal]

You can't see because you're blind right now by your own choice as to just how stupid, ignorant and dumb mankind is

Of course, now you have fallen into a paradoxical quagmire... You view mankind as some kind of collective [un]intelligence, and then go on to claim mankind is blind, stupid, ignorant, and dumb whilst both being a member of mankind, and whilst advocating a religious belief of mankind in the same breath. Thus, it would seem that if mankind is as blind, ignorant, stupid, and dumb as you claim, adhering to a widely held belief of this same mankind may, perhaps be just as blind, ignorant, stupid, and dumb.

 

[Terry1]

Of course, now you have fallen into a paradoxical quagmire... You view mankind as some kind of collective [un]intelligence, and then go on to claim mankind is blind, stupid, ignorant, and dumb whilst both being a member of mankind, and whilst advocating a religious belief of mankind in the same breath. Thus, it would seem that if mankind is as blind, ignorant, stupid, and dumb as you claim, adhering to a widely held belief of this same mankind may, perhaps be just as blind, ignorant, stupid, and dumb.

without the spiritual wisdom of God---yes---even rocks are smarter than mankind. Many people are positive proof and evidence of that fact.

 

[Sola_Fide]

You can't see because you're blind right now by your own choice as to just how stupid, ignorant and dumb mankind is and that is because of what sin did to mankind, making them totally ignorant of the real dangers that exist in this world. So then as we become adults, we become more aware of what the physical dangers are in this world and people try to teach their children what to beware of by their own knowledge and experience.

Mankind, whether children or adult only understand something is wrong because they're taught and they learn. Some are smarter than others and simply obey while most have to be deprived of something they want in order to understand what they did was wrong. That deprivation can include a multitude of things regarding what children or adults value most in life. For children, it can be their toys and privileges, for adults it can pretty much be the same. If you never discipline your children, you're only hurting them more in the long run. Depriving them of things in order to show them that what they're doing was wrong is not "abuse", but rather love for them.

God works in that same way, only He does it His way knowing what will lead mankind to repentance or changing their minds about the way they're living and what they're doing that's harmful to their very souls and eternal destiny. Atheists can not understand how this works because they admittedly refuse to believe in God for their own reason which always vary according to what they value most in their lives.

Terry1,

What makes one man choose God and another person not choose Him?

 

[Cabal]

without the spiritual wisdom of God---yes---even rocks are smarter than mankind. Many people are positive proof and evidence of that fact.

Given that mankind are the so-called children of God, and among His greatest, most cherished creations, it is interesting how one who considers themselves devout, such as yourself, would look down upon mankind with such disdain, especially given that you are included in this mankind you speak down of.

But I suppose you believe yourself apart from these so-called blind, stupid, dumb, ignorant masses, yes? Because in your great wisdom, you've come to adhere to some belief system that makes you somehow superior to the rest. These delusions of grandeur are seen throughout human history, of course, and often lead to some of the worst atrocities the world has ever seen. Not surprisingly, it is those who believe themselves superior to the rest that turn out to be among the most vile and villainous, and as such, capable of more wretchedness than any other.

 

[Miss Annie]

When I went to church and got saved, I did NOT go because I was looking to get saved.... or looking for God or Jesus. I went because I wanted to drive my father in law crazy enough to move out of my house!! My ex husband had left several months prior and his father had been living in our house for five years. He was starting to get the idea that since his son had flown the coop that I needed a "man around the house". Which I most certainly did NOT! LOL. My father in law was anti Christian. I don't say he was an athiest because my step father is an athiest and Christian symbols do not bother him. They mean no more to him than the golden arches of McDonalds. But my father in law was definitely anti Christian. Anything Christian just chapped his arse. So I was going to go to church and come home singing hymns and praying at dinner. I knew it would make him mad enough to move out!
Not exactly what one would call honorable intentions..... LOL.

When I went to that church, I was a beer drinking, dope smoking, f bomb dropping, sexually "free" woman who was just coming out of a semi "open" marriage! Oh what a hot mess! And I certainly did not want to give all that up, because I thought I would never be able to live up to God's standards anyway..... even if I did give up the most obvious things.
My only exposure to the gospel were the children's stories from Sunday School when my great grandparents used to take me.
I went to that church and heard a sermon like I had never heard before. The pastor said that we do not have to clean ourselves up before we come to God. He said, in fact, it is impossible for us to do that. He said that we bring ourselves to God, and God cleans us up in HIS POWER and in HIS TIME.

I think that so much of the gospel is missed though, by focusing on our "behaviors". It is really about a relationship. God wants us to interact with him. He wants us to be real with him. He knows whats in our hearts and minds anyway.

 

[Terry1]

Terry1,

What makes one man choose God and another person not choose Him?

You just said it yourself---it's their choice once they've heard the "good news". We sow the seeds, then it's up them if they will or they won't. God tells us there's enough His evidence of creation all around us to provoke mankind to belief, it's up to them.

 

[Sola_Fide]

You just said it yourself---it their choice once they've heard the "good news". We sow the seeds, then it's up them if they will or they won't. God tell us there's enough His evidence of creation all around us to provoke mankind to belief, it's up to them.

No, I didn't say that. Romans 1 says God reveals Himself enough so that everyone is WITHOUT EXCUSE, meaning they are all condemned.

But according to you, what makes a man choose and another reject? Are they smarter? More spiritually sensitive? What is it in a man that causes him to respond?

 

[Sola_Fide]

We sow the seeds, then it's up them

By the way, your seed analogy is wrong. Here is the correct version:

1 Corinthians 3:6 NIV

I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow.