Analysis of Arizona Immigration Bill

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

No, they said "Something has to be done RIGHT NOW!"

Also, they didn't allow anybody to read the bill before they voted on it. This situation has been developing for 20 years - the "do nothing" approach has had negative implications for the citizens of Arizona.

The bill went through the legislature, and was subject to the standard debate.

When a government's plan isn't working, it is the responsibility of the people to change it. 70% of the people in Arizona support this, whereas about 10% of the people of the USA supported the bailout.

I have seen a recurring criticism of open borders. I don't have a problem with Arizona getting off the chain being totalitarian and facist. Personally I think if 70% of the people support it they ought to empty their prisons and deport all undocumented aliens to D.C. or federal territory, nullify federal legislation, and raise a militia (paid or volunteer) to patrol the constitutional borders of Arizona.

I think the people in Arizona can do whatever the hell they want to do because that is the way the world works... anarchy. And it is pretty evident the system of anarchy is working just fine in Arizona. But if the people want secure borders and expect the people in other states to pay for it that isn't gonna fly.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I have seen a recurring criticism of open borders. I don't have a problem with Arizona getting off the chain being totalitarian and facist. Personally I think if 70% of the people support it they ought to empty their prisons and deport all undocumented aliens to D.C. or federal territory, nullify federal legislation, and raise a militia (paid or volunteer) to patrol the constitutional borders of Arizona.

I think the people in Arizona can do whatever the hell they want to do because that is the way the world works... anarchy. And it is pretty evident the system of anarchy is working just fine in Arizona. But if the people want secure borders and expect the people in other states to pay for it that isn't gonna fly.

Way to redefine anarchy to fit your agenda. Hoo-rah for propaganda and disinformation.

 

[tropicangela]

I have seen a recurring criticism of open borders. I don't have a problem with Arizona getting off the chain being totalitarian and facist. Personally I think if 70% of the people support it they ought to empty their prisons and deport all undocumented aliens to D.C. or federal territory, nullify federal legislation, and raise a militia (paid or volunteer) to patrol the constitutional borders of Arizona.

I think the people in Arizona can do whatever the hell they want to do because that is the way the world works... anarchy. And it is pretty evident the system of anarchy is working just fine in Arizona. But if the people want secure borders and expect the people in other states to pay for it that isn't gonna fly.

On the point of illegals in the prisons here, why do they hold them and not deport them?

 

[MelissaWV]

On the point of illegals in the prisons here, why do they hold them and not deport them?

Supposedly because they sneak right back across the border.

Absolutely none of this will be worth beans, other than to disrupt the lives of law-abiding citizens and only slightly inconvenience illegals, unless the border is actually secure.

 

[phill4paul]

After reading many posts and watching some you tubes I'll have to come down on the side that oppose this law.

There are many reasons that America is in the state that it is in with regards to jobs,wages, crimes and welfare.

The solution to these problems does not equate with questioning an American citizens birth right. Ever. For any reason. Nor does it equate with profiling a specific group for interrogation as to their citizenship.

The focus should be on government and what it has done to create these problems not an ethnic group nor immigrants legal or illegal.

Individuals or groups of individuals did not create the problems that the government would have us find scapegoats for.

International trade agreements, prohibition laws without weight of Constitutional amendments and out of control vote pandering have created this problem.

Don't lose sight of the brass ring.

 

[bruce leeroy]

On the point of illegals in the prisons here, why do they hold them and not deport them?

here is a novel idea, instead of imprisoning kiddy diddlers and such, lets just drop theire asses off at the border, if that happened the federales in coachulia and chihuahua provinces might get proactive on border security

 

[dannno]

On the point of illegals in the prisons here, why do they hold them and not deport them?

Ya, what Melissa said.. and actually, I'm pretty sure they get deported after their sentence, not 100% sure.

We need to secure our border before considering deporting criminals.

 

[Kade]

What fewer people have noticed is the phrase "lawful contact," which defines what must be going on before police even think about checking immigration status. "That means the officer is already engaged in some detention of an individual because he's violated some other law," says Kris Kobach, a University of Missouri Kansas City Law School professor who helped draft the measure. "The most likely context where this law would come into play is a traffic stop."


ssforronpaul

The concept of Lawful Contact has all but been ignored by an ever increasing number of law enforcement agencies. Hell, I'm sure it was lawful contact when the Maryland police beat the living shit out of that student, and then "misplaced" the video tapes of that segment only.

The relevant section of the law, as you summarized, is:

For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person.

Lawful contact is really anything they damn well feel like... be it spilling coffee on the wrong side of the street, or giving the finger to a building wall.

I could go into the ethics of this law from the immigration point of view, or I could just simply point out that the abuse of this law has already occurred.

How easy will it be to continue down this path, and turn the tables? The immigration status of the person is Federal jurisdiction, this is in essence a State Law riding Federal laws.

Let's change the words just slightly, and observe how fast you suddenly become offended...



For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person has not paid Federal Income Tax, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the Social Security Number of the Person.



GG.

 

[dannno]

The concept of Lawful Contact has all but been ignored by an ever increasing number of law enforcement agencies. Hell, I'm sure it was lawful contact when the Maryland police beat the living shit out of that student, and then "misplaced" the video tapes of that segment only.

The relevant section of the law, as you summarized, is:

For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person.

Lawful contact is really anything they damn well feel like... be it spilling coffee on the wrong side of the street, or giving the finger to a building wall.

I could go into the ethics of this law from the immigration point of view, or I could just simply point out that the abuse of this law has already occurred.

How easy will it be to continue down this path, and turn the tables? The immigration status of the person is Federal jurisdiction, this is in essence a State Law riding Federal laws.

Let's change the words just slightly, and observe how fast you suddenly become offended...



For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person has not paid Federal Income Tax, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the Social Security Number of the Person.



GG.

Yes, it really is important to keep in mind the awful situation our police state is already in when we consider broadening their powers. (Also, Kade, that comment on lawful contact has already been debunked using text from the bill.. they don't need lawful contact, just suspicion..)

 

[constituent]

On the point of illegals in the prisons here, why do they hold them and not deport them?

Are you kidding me? That's good contract labor. Teach them English, and you have an excellent bilingual customer service and tech support crew.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Way to redefine anarchy to fit your agenda. Hoo-rah for propaganda and disinformation.

I don't think people doing whatever they want to do despite constitutional prohibitions and safeguards in constitutions of Republics is stretching the definition of anarchy in any way:

Meridian-Webster Definition
1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order b : absence of order :

I would not consider a characterization of mob rule out of line either.

 

[angelatc]

See, I'm on the total opposite side of that "secure the borders!" thing. I am not thrilled with the idea of being walled in, or being surrounded by troops that will ultimately be used to keep me from leaving.

 

[John Taylor]

Supposedly because they sneak right back across the border.

Absolutely none of this will be worth beans, other than to disrupt the lives of law-abiding citizens and only slightly inconvenience illegals, unless the border is actually secure.

Hence the passage of this law... to hold the feds feet to the fire.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

See, I'm on the total opposite side of that "secure the borders!" thing. I am not thrilled with the idea of being walled in, or being surrounded by troops that will ultimately be used to keep me from leaving.

Me too but I do not live in Arizona.

 

[John Taylor]

Me too but I do not live in Arizona.

I have, and I've seen the 12 time border jumpers on the local tv or in the court-room for killing a 16 year old girl in the La Quinta hotel on I17 and Thunderbird (or Greenway). You have no idea how many illegals there are here, hundreds of thousands. The police and firefighters are expending vast amounts of resources dealing with them, and providing them care, and the taxpayers get saddled with the debt... oh, and the migrants, their kids get citizenship then vote to raise our taxes and increase the size and scope of government.

 

[MelissaWV]

Hence the passage of this law... to hold the feds feet to the fire.

... I missed the part where any real additional physical measures are being put into place to stop people from re-entering. Will they be jailed, deported, or both? Jailing costs money, deporting (as seen in the past) doesn't work with the WORST criminals that come across (you have mentioned coyotes and the like; they make multiple trips). All of this really is wishful thinking without assurances that those deported won't come right back, but as angela said earlier that really doesn't mean we shouldn't do SOMETHING (I just don't believe this "something" passes the smell test).

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I have, and I've seen the 12 time border jumpers on the local tv or in the court-room for killing a 16 year old girl in the La Quinta hotel on I17 and Thunderbird (or Greenway). You have no idea how many illegals there are here, hundreds of thousands. The police and firefighters are expending vast amounts of resources dealing with them, and providing them care, and the taxpayers get saddled with the debt... oh, and the migrants, their kids get citizenship then vote to raise our taxes and increase the size and scope of government.

You have no idea what I may or may not have an idea of.

Nullify welfare in Arizona. The government of Arizona could start accepting gold and silver coin for payment of debts in Arizona to enable competing currencies.

 

[ssforronpaul]

Supposedly because they sneak right back across the border.

Absolutely none of this will be worth beans, other than to disrupt the lives of law-abiding citizens and only slightly inconvenience illegals, unless the border is actually secure.

This bill will affect the people in Arizona as there illegal numbers at least as a percentage of all illegals in America will fall, if this law is enforced. The illegals will move to the other states where there is no enforcement. The illegals will go to one of the other states with a preference shown for neighboring states.

An example: It's just like zoning in localities. If you make your laws tighter for a certain housing type (ex: condos), it is easier for the builder to build in a neighboring locality than fight the law in your locality. Thus in your locality you don't see this type of housing, but in the neighboring communities that are more lax or lack zoning completely you see that housing type all over the place.

ssforronpaul

 

[MelissaWV]

This bill will affect the people in Arizona as there illegal numbers at least as a percentage of all illegals in America will fall, if this law enforced. The illegals will move to the other states where there is no enforcement. The illegals will go to one of the other states with a preference shown for neighboring states.

An example: It's just like zoning in localities. If you make your laws tighter for a certain housing type (ex: condos), it is easier for the builder to build in a neighboring locality than fight the law in your locality. Thus in your locality you don't see this type of housing, but in the neighboring communities that are more lax or lack zoning completely you see that housing type all over the place.

ssforronpaul

*shrugs* Coyotes will start offering (if they don't already) packages with fake IDs. If their families are in Arizona (illegally) they will want to go there. I wouldn't go to California Ew.

 

[angelatc]

I am saying the most productive person should get the job, don't see what is wrong with that. So yes, what I am saying is, better workers should get jobs over worse workers, in simple terms. And at the very least it should be up to the discretion of the employer. If a guy wants to go out of business by offering high wages and producing less, he ought to be in the business of running a charity and not running a business cause he will go out of business. I don't think government policy should be focused on inhibiting economic growth, which is what you seem to be advocating by restricting the labor supply. Look, you are going to appeal to my senses by advocating this black power nonsense like some corrupt socialist civil rights pimp. They can work harder, it isn't impossible.

I am saying get rid of welfare and end the burdensome tax and regulatory system which inhibits growth. Will this employ every person? Hell no. I never said full employment should be the goal or is even possible, this is where charities and voluntary contributions come in if individuals or groups so wish to help those in need.

No, you specifically said your friend's Dad fired the black people and replaced them with Latinos because the Latinos were more efficient. Sounds pretty racist to me. Not to mention that it absolutely proves my original point - the illegal immigrants are indeed taking jobs away from black Americans.

Again, what would you do with those people who are too unproductive in that state we're advocating for? You might want to come up with a better plan than "Oh well, nobody said we'd all have jobs." That only flies if we all have a chance at getting jobs, which you think that some people don't really even deserve.

Remember, I've already seen what happens in a country where there's a labor shortage. Wages rise, houses get affordable, welfare rolls fall, employers provide training to improve the skill sets of the workers, and inefficient businesses close.

I've also seen what happens in a country where there's a labor surplus. Wages fall, housing prices rise, welfare rolls rise, and inefficient businesses are rewarded by not having to compete for resources.

Of course, neither is sustainable, and if we didn't have a welfare state, these situations would ebb and tide in the market's self correcting way. But we don't.

If you think that you're going to get people to vote to abolish their only source of income when the economy is in the tank, you're not being realistic. And you're delusional if you can look at Arizona and continue to cheer for unfettered immigration.