Your personal favorite Founding Father

[specsaregood]

Why? The US presidency (in conjunction with congress, of course) has been one of the most murderous regimes in history. Can you name a non-democratic/non-republican government that has murdered and terrorized as many people, foreign and domestic as the American regime has?

Give us a number to work with. Plenty of regimes have been brutal throughout history, most of them nondemocratic/non republican and non-american. And with inferior murderous technology.

 

[klamath]

Why? The US presidency (in conjunction with congress, of course) has been one of the most murderous regimes in history. Can you name a non-democratic/non-republican government that has murdered and terrorized as many people, foreign and domestic as the American regime has?

Yes plenty. China russia, england, france, japan, rome, mongolia......

 

[SisCyn]

Congress cannot establish the Church of the USA, meaning an official denomination which is supported and funded by the government and citizenry. That is all the Constitution says. Saying we are a nation that is in the tradition of and governs with Judeo-Christian principles is not establishing a national church. Christians are and have always undoubtedly been the majority. However, the Constitution also emphasizes freedom of religion meaning that we are not some ruling class that can strip any other citizens of their right to freely practice whichever religion they choose.

No, it says religion, not church.

That's why it is correct to say that the United States is not a Christian country. There is no established religion.

 

[klamath]

Thomas Woods seems to believe that the Barbary War was legal.

http://www.tomwoods.com/warpowers/

well I happen to disagree. You are sending american fire and american service members oversea you are at war. If this can be called legal then every other little undeclared war can be to.

 

[Cutlerzzz]

well I happen to disagree. You are sending american fire and american service members oversea you are at war. If this can be called legal then every other little undeclared war can be to.

Jefferson had congressional approval, and the entire war was in self defense.

 

[klamath]

Jefferson had congressional approval, and the entire war was in self defense.

wow I don't beleive I am have to agrue this. So did Bush. Did they declare war?

 

[Cutlerzzz]

Yes plenty. China russia, england, france, japan, rome, mongolia......

Don't forget Germany and Spain.

 

[noxnoctum]

Who voted for Hamilton ?

 

[klamath]

Don't forget Germany and Spain.

that is what the dots were for

 

[Bonnieblue]

No, it says religion, not church.

That's why it is correct to say that the United States is not a Christian country. There is no established religion.

Actually, your statement is not correct. The Constitution did not establish the United States; it established the general government which was to serve as the agent of the states which were the principals. Do not confuse a particular polity of a country with the social order of the country which was historically from its European roots Christian. In the 18th century, as a little further corrective, the word "religion," basically a new word in the context in which we use it today, meant "church" or "particular faith," i.e. Baptist, Catholic, etc. Our modern notion of "religion" as the amorphous ether lodging in the individual person was basically alien to the 18th century. If you read the ratification documents, which are the documents which count since it was the ratification conventions which gave the Constitution any authority it may have or have had, you will see that they understood the phrase to mean that Congress could not establish a church nor could Congress prohibit a state from doing so. In fact, at the time, there were a number of state churches. As a matter of rational exercise pertaining to "religion" as something different from "church," do you really think that anyone perceived a danger that a sub-committee of Congress would one day sit down and conjure up some "religion" ex nihilo and foist it on the American people? No, that is no logical.

You may not want Christianity to have any role in the American social order or in its polity today. That's fine. But let's not do a little creative re-writing of history. Such things are better left to folks like Joe Stalin.

 

[ConsideringRonPaul]

No, it says religion, not church.

That's why it is correct to say that the United States is not a Christian country. There is no established religion.

Establishing a religion would be establishing a church like many European countries had at that time and many still have today. The founders recognized that these types of forced beliefs were anti-liberty and had great foresight as Europe has become both relativistic and atheistic while America has remained strongly Christian despite no official state Church. And the US is a Christian nation in that it was founded on and is largely based off Judeo-Christian thought and the Constitution was written for a moral and religious people (as John Adams said). And an established religion would mean a particular denomination, in other words, a particular church. You cant just establish a general Christian religion for the nation; an established religion would have to pick a denomination. That is why America is a generally Christian Nation but one with liberty for all to choose their belief systems and no particular sect established. The fact that Congress always started with a prayer goes to show the founders didn't think they were establishing a religion by saying general prayers in a government setting.

 

[PierzStyx]

Why? The US presidency (in conjunction with congress, of course) has been one of the most murderous regimes in history. Can you name a non-democratic/non-republican government that has murdered and terrorized as many people, foreign and domestic as the American regime has?

Sure I can. But that list has already been made for you by another poster. The short answer though is ALL OF THEM.

As to why? Because when governed by the Constitution, the US is the freest most prosperous nation than can exist. The fact that the people have been idiots and abandoned the Constitution has no bearing upon that fact. Show me a free-er people on the Earth not under a Constitution modeled upon ours.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Yes plenty. China russia, england, france, japan, rome, mongolia......

All those examples went through several regimes in their histories. Russians did not commit mass murder on the scale that the American regime has till after the Tsarist period. Plus, although those regimes did get pretty big, they never had the power to terrorize anyone and anywhere the way the American regime does. It's democracies/republics that have committed the most egregious crimes against humanity. BTW, even in the Soviet Empire, it was still loosely "democratic". The Duma (the representative body) was established during Nicolas I's regime and was never fully destroyed (it exists to this day).

 

[specsaregood]

All those examples went through several regimes in their histories. Russians did not commit mass murder on the scale that the American regime has till after the Tsarist period. Plus, although those regimes did get pretty big, they never had the power to terrorize anyone and anywhere the way the American regime does. It's democracies/republics that have committed the most egregious crimes against humanity. BTW, even in the Soviet Empire, it was still loosely "democratic". The Duma (the representative body) was established during Nicolas I's regime and was never fully destroyed (it exists to this day).

The japanese were pretty darn brutal, re: nanking.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Sure I can. But that list has already been made for you by another poster. The short answer though is ALL OF THEM.

Not even close.

As to why? Because when governed by the Constitution, the US is the freest most prosperous nation than can exist. The fact that the people have been idiots and abandoned the Constitution has no bearing upon that fact. Show me a free-er people on the Earth not under a Constitution modeled upon ours.

This country has the highest percentage of its population in prison than ANY OTHER IN THE WORLD. You might think you're free, but you can't even buy your way out of government slavery (even slaves of olden days often had the ability to do this). Unless you're a crony, but that's a different matter. Gotta cut this short for tonight, but I'll get back to this ASAP.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

The japanese were pretty darn brutal, re: nanking.

The death toll there was ~300,000. More than 16 million died during WWII in Burma alone.

 

[Davy Crockett]

No, it says religion, not church.

That's why it is correct to say that the United States is not a Christian country. There is no established religion.

You are correct.

 

[SisCyn]

Actually, your statement is not correct. The Constitution did not establish the United States; it established the general government which was to serve as the agent of the states which were the principals. Do not confuse a particular polity of a country with the social order of the country which was historically from its European roots Christian. In the 18th century, as a little further corrective, the word "religion," basically a new word in the context in which we use it today, meant "church" or "particular faith," i.e. Baptist, Catholic, etc. Our modern notion of "religion" as the amorphous ether lodging in the individual person was basically alien to the 18th century. If you read the ratification documents, which are the documents which count since it was the ratification conventions which gave the Constitution any authority it may have or have had, you will see that they understood the phrase to mean that Congress could not establish a church nor could Congress prohibit a state from doing so. In fact, at the time, there were a number of state churches. As a matter of rational exercise pertaining to "religion" as something different from "church," do you really think that anyone perceived a danger that a sub-committee of Congress would one day sit down and conjure up some "religion" ex nihilo and foist it on the American people? No, that is no logical.

You may not want Christianity to have any role in the American social order or in its polity today. That's fine. But let's not do a little creative re-writing of history. Such things are better left to folks like Joe Stalin.

So where does Masonry fit into this fine kettle of soup?

 

[Cutlerzzz]

All those examples went through several regimes in their histories. Russians did not commit mass murder on the scale that the American regime has till after the Tsarist period. Plus, although those regimes did get pretty big, they never had the power to terrorize anyone and anywhere the way the American regime does. It's democracies/republics that have committed the most egregious crimes against humanity. BTW, even in the Soviet Empire, it was still loosely "democratic". The Duma (the representative body) was established during Nicolas I's regime and was never fully destroyed (it exists to this day).

I don't think that any of this is a fair comparison really, because no two governments have ever been in the same situation. The death toll in Pol Pot's Cambodia might have been much lower than what the American governments, but they killed off a third of their people in just a few years. That's the equivilent of the US government killing 100,000,000 people, or China killing 400,000,000.

The amount of power countries have is important as well. Little Belgium killed ten million people in the Congo by some accounts. Imagine what they might have done with an empire the size of Britains?

The US government will kill anyone to get more power/wealth if they believe they can get away with it, but the same can be said about most governments in history (especially when they grow as old as ours). But comparing gross death totals might not be the best way to do this.

 

[specsaregood]

The death toll there was ~300,000. More than 16 million died during WWII in Burma alone.

yeah and they raped 10's of thousands. it was a hands-on affair. sure we have better killing technology.