Your personal favorite Founding Father

Who is your personal favorite founder?

  • George Washington

    Votes: 15 9.6%
  • Thomas Jefferson

    Votes: 59 37.8%
  • Benjamin Franklin

    Votes: 15 9.6%
  • Thomas Paine

    Votes: 16 10.3%
  • Patrick Henry

    Votes: 18 11.5%
  • John Adams

    Votes: 5 3.2%
  • James Madison

    Votes: 11 7.1%
  • Samuel Adams

    Votes: 5 3.2%
  • Alexander Hamilton

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • Other (Comment)

    Votes: 10 6.4%

  • Total voters
    156
So where does Masonry fit into this fine kettle of soup?

You will like this.

The following chart is based on Baylor University sociologist Rodney Stark's study of American Christianity titled What Americans Really Believe. Stark’s new book is anchored in research he’s done on religion in the U.S. for more than 40 years, and relies on recent surveys conducted in 2005, 2006 and 2007 by the Gallup Organization for Baylor University.

a-churched-america.gif


Most Christians today are unaware that church attendance in America really did not pick up until after the Civil War and that Christianity was in a decline prior to that. From the early 19th century to the mid 19th century there was a growing interest in Free Thought in America.

Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899) is too little known today. Yet he was the foremost orator and political speechmaker of late 19th century America -- perhaps the best-known American of the post-Civil War era. On tour after tour, he crisscrossed the country and spoke before packed houses on topics ranging from Shakespeare to Reconstruction, from science to religion. Known as the Great Agnostic, Ingersoll was the best-known and most widely respected ambassador the American freethought movement would ever have.

In an age when oratory was the dominant form of public entertainment, Ingersoll was the unchallenged dean of American orators. He was seen and heard by more Americans than would see or hear any other human being until the advent of radio and motion pictures.

Ingersoll bitterly opposed the Religious Right of his day -- yet though he was an outspoken agnostic, he was also the foremost political speechmaker of the Republican Party. During Ingersoll's public life no GOP candidate for whom he declined to campaign attained the White House.

P88493afa4bcd154.jpg


http://www.freethought-trail.org/profile.php?By=Person&Page=5
 
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You will like this.

The following chart is based on Baylor University sociologist Rodney Stark's study of American Christianity titled What Americans Really Believe. Stark’s new book is anchored in research he’s done on religion in the U.S. for more than 40 years, and relies on recent surveys conducted in 2005, 2006 and 2007 by the Gallup Organization for Baylor University.

a-churched-america.gif


Most Christians today are unaware that church attendance in America really did not pick up until after the Civil War and that Christianity was in a decline prior to that. From the early 19th century to the mid 19th century there was a growing interest in Free Thought in America.

Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899) is too little known today. Yet he was the foremost orator and political speechmaker of late 19th century America -- perhaps the best-known American of the post-Civil War era. On tour after tour, he crisscrossed the country and spoke before packed houses on topics ranging from Shakespeare to Reconstruction, from science to religion. Known as the Great Agnostic, Ingersoll was the best-known and most widely respected ambassador the American freethought movement would ever have.

In an age when oratory was the dominant form of public entertainment, Ingersoll was the unchallenged dean of American orators. He was seen and heard by more Americans than would see or hear any other human being until the advent of radio and motion pictures.

Ingersoll bitterly opposed the Religious Right of his day -- yet though he was an outspoken agnostic, he was also the foremost political speechmaker of the Republican Party. During Ingersoll's public life no GOP candidate for whom he declined to campaign attained the White House.

P88493afa4bcd154.jpg


http://www.freethought-trail.org/profile.php?By=Person&Page=5


There were more famous and better politicians than Ingersoll. U.S. Grant for example. Thaddeus Stephens is another. There are plenty. Your bolded comments are not dependent on one another. Just because he campaigned for someone and they got elected doesn't mean he was the cause. It was impossible for a Republican to NOT be elected during the years after the Civil War.

And your chart is fascinating but flawed. When you read the history of people who came to America they were astounded by how many people went not just to church, but held religious meetings in their own homes. But religious attendance in church;s did ebb as usually happens after wars where the local population suffer. But this lead to the First and Second Great Awakenings and the retrenchment of religion in everyday American life. Church, not just private religious worship, exploded and that was long before 1850.
 
Not even close.

This country has the highest percentage of its population in prison than ANY OTHER IN THE WORLD. You might think you're free, but you can't even buy your way out of government slavery (even slaves of olden days often had the ability to do this). Unless you're a crony, but that's a different matter. Gotta cut this short for tonight, but I'll get back to this ASAP.

The US also has one of the largest POPULATIONS in the world. Of course it'll have higher numbers of incarcerated people. That'd be the case even if we didn't feel the need to send everyone to prison for every little thing.

And if you think slaves of "olden" days could buy themselves free your historically wrong. The only nation I know of that had anything near that was ancient Israel, where all slaves were freed every 50 yrs or so as Jehovah commanded. In all other cases slavery was a lifetime thing. very rarely could a slave ever become free in any way. Why do you think so many were willing to fight and die in the gladiator pits of Rome? it was one of the only ways they could even have the dream of liberty.


A
 
All those examples went through several regimes in their histories. Russians did not commit mass murder on the scale that the American regime has till after the Tsarist period. Plus, although those regimes did get pretty big, they never had the power to terrorize anyone and anywhere the way the American regime does. It's democracies/republics that have committed the most egregious crimes against humanity. BTW, even in the Soviet Empire, it was still loosely "democratic". The Duma (the representative body) was established during Nicolas I's regime and was never fully destroyed (it exists to this day).

Man your history is horrible. And to your original point regimes are irrelevant. Who ruled doesn't matter. Your statement was that no other country was as bloody as the US. History proves you wrong. You're also wrong about the size and scope of the power of modern states. The Cold War was all about the fact that the USSR had the same power to reach and kill anyone anywhere that the US had and people were afraid the USSR would use it. And they did. Maoist China as well. And just because the Duma existed does not make Russia democratic. Not even in quotation marks. You are seriously stretching history here.
 
The death toll there was ~300,000. More than 16 million died during WWII in Burma alone.

300,000 in ONE CITY ALONE. The Japanese ended up killing over 20,000,000 civilians during the war, civilians that were neither tied to the war or "caught in the crossfire" for the most part too. Some numbers places the number higher at over 50,000,000. That is more in one war than the US has done in ten years of global adventurism (which is not to say we should ignore our evils but to point out your lose grasp on history.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Japanese_war_crimes
 
It was impossible for a Republican to NOT be elected during the years after the Civil War.

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/ You may want to take that comment back. Everyone of those presidential elections were highly contested.

And your chart is fascinating but flawed.

That chart is from respected scholar who spent over 40 years studying church attendance in America and is referenced by several Christian organizations.

There were more famous and better politicians than Ingersoll. U.S. Grant for example. Thaddeus Stephens is another.

The Grant Administration was racked with political corruption scandals and do not even get me started on Thaddeus Stephens. Any honest historian will tell you that because of Stephens policies, the Klan was born to protect the southern White folks from the Carpetbaggers and Scalawags. Come down to the South and try to tell folks what a great man Stephens was, and you are likely to get your ass kicked.

Let me ask you something. Did they teach you anything in school? Did you spend much time on reading comprehension?

What I posted was: "During Ingersoll's public life no GOP candidate for whom he declined to campaign attained the White House."

That is not the same as saying that he was the cause of their election. However, the statement does imply that Ingersoll had enough influence within the Republican party to help select the party's candidate and that candidate needed his support to win the general election.

One last comment. The arrogance of Christians, rewriting history to fit their over-inflated sense of importance to America's history is going to cause a blow-back one of these days, and it is not too far off in the distance. Go ahead and Google the latest studies on religion in America. The key terms to search for is "nones", or "non-religious". Just in the last six years, the "nones" in America has doubled from 10% to 20% and is the fastest growing segment in surveys on religion. Some surveys even report 47% of the youth today are non-religious.

We do live in interesting times my friend. Whether you want to accept it or not, we may be seeing the Second Great Awakening of Free Thought in America.
 
Nah. Hamilton and Marshall were true Constitutionalists, and great Americans.
You cannot be serious. Hamilton is literally the father of big government. He wanted the president to be appointed for life, for god's sake. He wanted the states to have no rights, and he is the first proponent of the living constitution. Marshall is even worse, because as chief justice he forced federalist policies on Dem-Rep administrations. Together, they screwed our nation big time.
 
All those examples went through several regimes in their histories. Russians did not commit mass murder on the scale that the American regime has till after the Tsarist period. Plus, although those regimes did get pretty big, they never had the power to terrorize anyone and anywhere the way the American regime does. It's democracies/republics that have committed the most egregious crimes against humanity. BTW, even in the Soviet Empire, it was still loosely "democratic". The Duma (the representative body) was established during Nicolas I's regime and was never fully destroyed (it exists to this day).
Sorry but you are really starting to check out of reality. This is where you hate america first believers always fail. You are so intent on finding every fault with america you put blinders on to all other countries to try and make your case. It isn't possible because human nature doesn't just change across the US border and people become all good and wonderful.
But just for laughs
England was around the world hundreds of years before before the existent of America invading countries.
Spain was around the world hundreds of years before the US raping and killing in south America and far beyond.
France was around the world hundreds of years before the us.
The dutch were around the world.
Russia killed 30 to 40 million and had an entire western continent as a penal system and streatched around the world.
China killed 60 million of their own.
The mongals killed from one end of a continent to the other.
germany killed and fought from one end of the world to the other.
The japanese Killed thousands of people in the emperial conquests.
Most of these were done while they were not democrasies.
They may have had the support of their populations but that only goes to show human nature is the same the world around.
Trying to rewrite history in you mind to make it fit you preconcieved notions of political systems will do nothing to solve world problems.
 
Originally Posted by SisCyn
So where does Masonry fit into this fine kettle of soup?
You will like this.

The following chart is based on Baylor University sociologist Rodney Stark's study of American Christianity titled What Americans Really Believe. Stark’s new book is anchored in research he’s done on religion in the U.S. for more than 40 years, and relies on recent surveys conducted in 2005, 2006 and 2007 by the Gallup Organization for Baylor University.



Most Christians today are unaware that church attendance in America really did not pick up until after the Civil War and that Christianity was in a decline prior to that. From the early 19th century to the mid 19th century there was a growing interest in Free Thought in America.

Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899) is too little known today. Yet he was the foremost orator and political speechmaker of late 19th century America -- perhaps the best-known American of the post-Civil War era. On tour after tour, he crisscrossed the country and spoke before packed houses on topics ranging from Shakespeare to Reconstruction, from science to religion. Known as the Great Agnostic, Ingersoll was the best-known and most widely respected ambassador the American freethought movement would ever have.

In an age when oratory was the dominant form of public entertainment, Ingersoll was the unchallenged dean of American orators. He was seen and heard by more Americans than would see or hear any other human being until the advent of radio and motion pictures.

Ingersoll bitterly opposed the Religious Right of his day -- yet though he was an outspoken agnostic, he was also the foremost political speechmaker of the Republican Party. During Ingersoll's public life no GOP candidate for whom he declined to campaign attained the White House.



http://www.freethought-trail.org/pro...=Person&Page=5

A few things. Some of the founders were indeed Freemasons, but on this list, the only that have been accused of it are Franklin and Washington. Franklin, as I have already pointed out, self identified as a deist. Also, being a member of the freemasons does not, and still doesn't today, cause one to give up his Christian faith. It is more like a very exclusive group with some quirky rules, but it makes sense a few members of the colonial elite would join it. Further, there was very little participation in freemasonry by the masses in early America as it was contained mostly within elite circles. Here are a few things from the website: http://www.aboutfreemasons.com/Freemasons

What is the role of Christianity in Freemasonry?
Every Lodge has a sacred book open during meetings and this book is generally the Bible. Members swear their oaths on this book and must even declare their belief in a “Supreme Being” to become Masons. All of this leads some people to conclude that Christianity and Freemasonry are interconnected. In reality, though, the sacred book at every Lodge can be any sacred text chosen by the Lodge and members can choose to believe in any Supreme Being they wish – whether that being is the Christian God, a Muslim deity or Hindu god. In fact, Masons are very clear in indicating that they accept men of all religious faiths and backgrounds. Some Masonic orders – specifically the Knights Templar – are explicitly connected to Christianity.

Can a Christian be a Freemason?
Freemasons and Christianity have a long and sometimes complicated history. Early Freemasons were Christian men and in fact Christianity was incorporated into Freemasonry in some ways. Freemasons need to proclaim a faith in a Supreme Being and most Lodges use the Bible as a scared text. Early Practicing Masons helped to build cathedrals and churches and some of the churches around the world in fact have Masonic symbols upon them.

Is Freemasonry a religion?
Freemasonry is a fraternity or a social society. It is not a religious organization or political organization and in fact has no political or religious affiliations. Muslims, Jewish persons, and Christians can all become Masons and Freemasonry will not interfere with their religious beliefs at all.

As for that chart Crocket posted, all it says is that people are more frequently registering with one local church and choosing that as their sole home. It has nothing to do with how frequently people attend religious services, nor how religious the people were. For example, polls have shown many more people went to church (percentage wise) weekly in the 1950s and also more people believed in God than today, yet, if I were to believe your post, Americans would be more religious today.

Since your so fond of copying and pasting, I'll do a little myself:

II. Religion in Eighteenth-Century America

Against a prevailing view that eighteenth-century Americans had not perpetuated the first settlers' passionate commitment to their faith, scholars now identify a high level of religious energy in colonies after 1700. According to one expert, religion was in the "ascension rather than the declension"; another sees a "rising vitality in religious life" from 1700 onward; a third finds religion in many parts of the colonies in a state of "feverish growth." Figures on church attendance and church formation support these opinions. Between 1700 and 1740, an estimated 75 to 80 percent of the population attended churches, which were being built at a headlong pace.

Toward mid-century the country experienced its first major religious revival. The Great Awakening swept the English-speaking world, as religious energy vibrated between England, Wales, Scotland and the American colonies in the 1730s and 1740s. In America, the Awakening signaled the advent of an encompassing evangelicalism--the belief that the essence of religious experience was the "new birth," inspired by the preaching of the Word. It invigorated even as it divided churches. The supporters of the Awakening and its evangelical thrust--Presbyterians, Baptists and Methodists--became the largest American Protestant denominations by the first decades of the nineteenth century. Opponents of the Awakening or those split by it--Anglicans, Quakers, and Congregationalists--were left behind.

As for Ingersoll, he was not mentioned once in my United States History textbook last year so I highly doubt that "He was seen and heard by more Americans than would see or hear any other human being until the advent of radio and motion pictures."
 
Sorry but you are really starting to check out of reality. This is where you hate america first believers always fail. You are so intent on finding every fault with america you put blinders on to all other countries to try and make your case. It isn't possible because human nature doesn't just change across the US border and people become all good and wonderful.
But just for laughs
England was around the world hundreds of years before before the existent of America invading countries.
Spain was around the world hundreds of years before the US raping and killing in south America and far beyond.
France was around the world hundreds of years before the us.
The dutch were around the world.
Russia killed 30 to 40 million and had an entire western continent as a penal system and streatched around the world.
China killed 60 million of their own.
The mongals killed from one end of a continent to the other.
germany killed and fought from one end of the world to the other.
The japanese Killed thousands of people in the emperial conquests.
Most of these were done while they were not democrasies.
They may have had the support of their populations but that only goes to show human nature is the same the world around.
Trying to rewrite history in you mind to make it fit you preconcieved notions of political systems will do nothing to solve world problems.
I'm not a "hate America firster". I would argue that at this point, it's more likely to achieve freedom here in the long term than anywhere else. That's why I'm not moving anytime soon. I'm a hate-American government/State-firster. The people are fine overall. (conflating people and government is a MAJOR flaw in constitutionalist thought) Besides, the examples above don't really disprove what I said. Those regimes still didn't kill on the scale that democracies have. At any rate, if you (and the majority of others) accepted micro-secession, we could choose our own respective governments, and these arguments would be reduced to merely academic ones. I don't mean to give the impression that I am calling you "anti-freedom" because you don't share my worldview, btw. We are aiming toward freedom-you just stop before I do. This is why I'm willing to work with you.

Notice you said that human nature doesn't change anywhere. I entirely agree with this. This is why I don't trust democracies. Not only do they have many of the flaws of other systems, they lack the incentive to avoid total war that monarchies have (because the monarch generally doesn't want to risk his property too much). Plus, the monarch can relatively easily be overthrown-while the democratic apparatus exists almost indefinitely. Look at the American Empire. We retain many of the trappings of old-fashioned democratic-republicanism, but apply police statism domestically and imperialism abroad.

ETA: notice that the Frace/England/Russia examples you chose didn't occur till after elected bodies were adopted. They got into petty wars and such, but there was no total war until ideals of democracy came about. Also note that kings typically went to war along with the people, and as I noted before, they bore the risk of engaging in war-making total war far less likely.
 
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What is the role of Christianity in Freemasonry?
Every Lodge has a sacred book open during meetings and this book is generally the Bible. Members swear their oaths on this book and must even declare their belief in a “Supreme Being” to become Masons. All of this leads some people to conclude that Christianity and Freemasonry are interconnected. In reality, though, the sacred book at every Lodge can be any sacred text chosen by the Lodge and members can choose to believe in any Supreme Being they wish – whether that being is the Christian God, a Muslim deity or Hindu god. In fact, Masons are very clear in indicating that they accept men of all religious faiths and backgrounds. Some Masonic orders – specifically the Knights Templar – are explicitly connected to Christianity.

Is Freemasonry a religion?
Freemasonry is a fraternity or a social society. It is not a religious organization or political organization and in fact has no political or religious affiliations. Muslims, Jewish persons, and Christians can all become Masons and Freemasonry will not interfere with their religious beliefs at all.

These facts that you are pointing out here above backs up the contention that the United States was never intended to be formed as a Christian nation. It was Freemasonry, not Christianity, that was the dominant force behind the Constitution.

"...There were ultimately five dominant and guiding spirits behind the Constitution - Washington, Franklin, Randolph, Jefferson and John Adams. Of these, the first three were active Freemasons, but men who took their Freemasonry extremely seriously - men who subscribed fervently to its ideals, whose entire orientation had been shaped and conditioned by it. And Adam's position, though he himself is not known to have been a Freemason was virtually identical to theirs. When he became president, moreover, he appointed a prominent Freemason, John Marshall, as first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court." (1)

"Some of the greatest names of the American Revolution were Masons: Ethan Alien, Edmund Burke, John Claypoole, William Daws, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, John Paul Jones, Robert Livingston, Paul Revere, Colonel Benjamin Tupper, and George Washington. Of the 56 signers of The Declaration of Independence, eight were known Masons and seven others exhibited strong evidence of Masonic membership. Of the forty signers of the Constitution, nine were known Masons, 13 exhibited evidence of Masonic membership, and six more later became Masons.
"There were many other Masonic influences in early American history: (1) Lafayette, the French liaison to the Colonies, without whose aid the war could not have been won, was a Freemason; (2) the majority of the commanders of the Continental Army were Freemasons and members of "Army Lodges"; (3) most of George Washington's generals were Freemasons; the Boston Tea Party was planned at the Green Dragon Tavern, also known as the "Freemasons' Arms" and "the Headquarters of the Revolution"; (4) George Washington was sworn in as the first President of the United States by Robert Livingston, Grand Master of New York's Masonic lodge, and the Bible on which he took his oath was from his own Masonic lodge; and (5) the Cornerstone of the Capital Building was laid by the Grand Lodge of Maryland." (2)

From American Masonic History - What Are America's True Roots?


There is another kind of "conspiracy theory" that has been floating around for over 150 years. That is that the government of the United States was based upon Sir Francis Bacon's utopian vision that was found in his novel New Atlantis:

Some scholars believe that Bacon's vision for a Utopian New World in North America was laid out in his novel New Atlantis, which depicts a mythical island, Bensalem, located somewhere between Peru and Japan. He envisioned a land where there would be greater rights for women, the abolition of slavery, elimination of debtors' prisons, separation of church and state, and freedom of religious and political expression.[44][45][46][47] Francis Bacon played a leading role in creating the British colonies, especially in Virginia, the Carolinas, and Newfoundland in northeastern Canada.

His government report on “The Virginia Colony” was submitted in 1609. In 1610 Bacon and his associates received a charter from the king to form the Tresurer and the Companye of Adventurers and planter of the Cittye of london and Bristoll for the Collonye or plantacon in Newfoundland[48] and sent John Guy to found a colony there. In 1910 Newfoundland issued a postage stamp to commemorate Bacon's role in establishing the province. The stamp describes Bacon as, "the guiding spirit in Colonization Schemes in 1610."[15] Thomas Jefferson, the third President of the United States wrote: "Bacon, Locke and Newton. I consider them as the three greatest men that have ever lived, without any exception, and as having laid the foundation of those superstructures which have been raised in the Physical and Moral sciences".[49]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_bacon#Influence

I believe that it is possible that the Rosicrucian and Freemasonry movements were secret organizations that were formed in order to subvert the dominance of the Roman Catholic Church that forbade scientific inquiry and free thought.

The founders were well aware of how science and progress had been driven underground for hundreds of years by a ruling religion. Hence the way that the constituion is worded, conspicuously leaving out the name of Jesus and Christianity, made it clear that there was to be no official or established religion that would be the defacto government of the United States.
 
I'm not a "hate America firster". I would argue that at this point, it's more likely to achieve freedom here in the long term than anywhere else. That's why I'm not moving anytime soon. I'm a hate-American government/State-firster. The people are fine overall. (conflating people and government is a MAJOR flaw in constitutionalist thought) Besides, the examples above don't really disprove what I said. Those regimes still didn't kill on the scale that democracies have. At any rate, if you (and the majority of others) accepted micro-secession, we could choose our own respective governments, and these arguments would be reduced to merely academic ones. I don't mean to give the impression that I am calling you "anti-freedom" because you don't share my worldview, btw. We are aiming toward freedom-you just stop before I do. This is why I'm willing to work with you.


Notice you said that human nature doesn't change anywhere. I entirely agree with this. This is why I don't trust democracies. Not only do they have many of the flaws of other systems, they lack the incentive to avoid total war that monarchies have (because the monarch generally doesn't want to risk his property too much). Plus, the monarch can relatively easily be overthrown-while the democratic apparatus exists almost indefinitely. Look at the American Empire. We retain many of the trappings of old-fashioned democratic-republicanism, but apply police statism domestically and imperialism abroad.

ETA: notice that the Frace/England/Russia examples you chose didn't occur till after elected bodies were adopted. They got into petty wars and such, but there was no total war until ideals of democracy came about. Also note that kings typically went to war along with the people, and as I noted before, they bore the risk of engaging in war-making total war far less likely.
Sorry but they were not democrasies. And yes monarchs did without question engage in foreign war and police brutality. Hitler was a monarch. Ghengis khan was a monarch Stalin was a monarch, Mao was a monarch. I do not ague with you that democrasies are just as brutal but you are flat out wrong in saying they are more brutal. You are confusing the advancement of war making technology with democrasy. Total war would absolutely have been carried out if the war making technology and technical logistitcal support would have been available in centuries past except even more brutal. Even at that warfare was carried to all reaches of the earth even when just the act of crossing an ocean was barely possible without high loss rates to nature.
As far as micro secession I have lived it way before you were born. I still do as much as possible. I live where my nearest neighbor is 7 air miles away. When my family moved here 45 years ago we bothered nobody. We rarely went to town grew much of our own food supplied our own energy, homeschooled, and respected the environment.
But you know what we didn't respect the enviroment like other people thought it should be. Even mankind being in a wilderness was called with a sneer "inholders". Soon the federal agencies were notified and you know what the little dream of microsecession became a joke. Court orders and federal marshalls were the rule of the day. The choices were to give up and run, stand your ground and kill and soon be aniilated or work with the constitution system we have and work the court and legal route.
Using that system I am still here. I hate courts and I hate fighting government but there is always some conflicting group of people that do not like how other people are living their lives and the only way to efectively deal with it is our constitution system. It is by no mean perfect and it never will be because human nature makes it that way.
 
I like Benjamin Franklin. He's like the American version of Karl Marx. His philosophies are astonishing!
 
Thomas Jefferson would have to be my favorite. He was an intellectual and knew the dangers of letting government get to big. My second choice would be George Washington because of his selflessness. He could have been king if he wanted to. My third choice would be Samuel Adams as he like to stir things up and was promoting a revolution long before anyone else was..just like Ron Paul.

My least favorite is Alexander Hamilton. He was the big government establishment guy. IIRC he wanted the US to be a monarchy. Jefferson and Hamilton were complete opposites. It was fitting that Aaron Burr, Jefferson's vice president shot and killed Hamilton. As we can see now, Hamilton's support for a central bank and Jefferson's opposition, tells us who was the better of the two.
 
These facts that you are pointing out here above backs up the contention that the United States was never intended to be formed as a Christian nation. It was Freemasonry, not Christianity, that was the dominant force behind the Constitution.

Why because Freemasons almost always used the Bible as their book of choice. Or the fact that very few of the prominent members of society actually were Masons. Or the fact that, as you highlighted, Freemasonry doesn't actually interfere with religious beliefs at all. Or the fact that the masses were overwhelmingly Christian and not just nominally but in practice. Only a fool would claim this was intended to be a freemasons society.

There is another kind of "conspiracy theory" that has been floating around for over 150 years. That is that the government of the United States was based upon Sir Francis Bacon's utopian vision that was found in his novel New Atlantis:

And its just that, a conspiracy theory. Not a stitch of evidence. And what was the point of pointing out that a handful of the signers of the Declaration and Constitution were freemasons, they weren't close to a majority and the majority of the Freemasons still remained devoutly Christian.

I believe that it is possible that the Rosicrucian and Freemasonry movements were secret organizations that were formed in order to subvert the dominance of the Roman Catholic Church that forbade scientific inquiry and free thought.

The founders were well aware of how science and progress had been driven underground for hundreds of years by a ruling religion. Hence the way that the constituion is worded, conspicuously leaving out the name of Jesus and Christianity, made it clear that there was to be no official or established religion that would be the defacto government of the United States.

Oh do you believe that? Interesting, thanks for telling me. Is there any truth to the claim, of course not. Just another conspiracy theory by you. As for science and scientific inquiry, the Scientific Revolution came about because of Christians, and Christianity is the only logical basis for science itself. Without a Godly worldview, there would have been no basis for Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment thinkers to believe that the universe was governed by constant laws. Check out the book by Rodney Starks called For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery. From Copernicus to Galileo to Newton, the majority of scientists during Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment had Christian world views. And besides, during the middle ages, it was the church that preserved science and learning of old. See Aquinas and other monks who saved ancient learnings.

During the time of the founders, states were seen as the main drivers for religious thought. The founders, when establishing the national government, knew this. Massacusetts had an established state church for the first few decades of its existence and nobody freaked out. Furthermore, children learned out of the Bible and prayed in public schools because state governments could do that. Because America was and still is a Christian Nation on a state level. As for the national level though, you can look to John Adams and his National Day of Fasting and Prayer during 1798 to show the founders had no problems appealing to Christ. This was because religious determination was ultimately meant to be left up to the states and local governments. The reason God is not mentioned in the Constitution is because there was no reason to mention Him; the Constitution was about the function of government. The Declaration mentioned Him four times previously, and that is the intellectual framework under which the founders were working. And the Declaration is not deistic as evidenced by its plea for divine providence (God coming into the world and helping the glorious American cause as opposed to a clockmaker who made the world but is now no longer interested in it).

Please read this article before commenting any more, it does a great job of dealing with the "No direct reference to Christ" mention that ignorant rubes such as yourself think "proves" the US is not a Christian nation: http://www.wnd.com/2003/08/20465/
 
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Please read this article before commenting any more, it does a great job of dealing with the "No direct reference to Christ" mention that ignorant rubes such as yourself think "proves" the US is not a Christian nation: http://www.wnd.com/2003/08/20465/

There are an awfully lot of assumptions and explanations in that article. Reminds me so much of Biblical apologists who attempt to explain what was in the mind of a writer, and it is anything but what they wrote.

So what are the benefits, advantages, and ultimate goal of being correct in the position that the United States is a Christian nation?
 
And its just that, a conspiracy theory. Not a stitch of evidence. And what was the point of pointing out that a handful of the signers of the Declaration and Constitution were freemasons, they weren't close to a majority and the majority of the Freemasons still remained devoutly Christian.

Oh do you believe that? Interesting, thanks for telling me. Is there any truth to the claim, of course not. Just another conspiracy theory by you. As for science and scientific inquiry, the Scientific Revolution came about because of Christians, and Christianity is the only logical basis for science itself. Without a Godly worldview, there would have been no basis for Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment thinkers to believe that the universe was governed by constant laws. Check out the book by Rodney Starks called For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery. From Copernicus to Galileo to Newton, the majority of scientists during Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment had Christian world views. And besides, during the middle ages, it was the church that preserved science and learning of old. See Aquinas and other monks who saved ancient learnings.


Good documentary on Freemasonry, should you wish to expand your knowledge on them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7YZ1A_1FX8
 
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