Your personal favorite Founding Father

[Cutlerzzz]

1.) R
2.) U
3.) 4
4.) Real?

Is there someone you think I should add?

 

[specsaregood]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo136.html
Alexander Hamilton put forward an amendment to make the president elected for life during the convention.
He believed that the government could do whatever it wanted to, unless it was specifically restricted by the constitution.
He believed that government should help business.
He is the father of big government. He is no friend to liberty.
I respect his life story, but to me that runs secondary to almost singlehandedly screwing up this country's future.
And Burr was a self serving asshole, I'm not defending him. He was a federalist as well.

Exactly like I said. From son of a whore to the intellectual founder of our current governments way of operating.

 

[Jtorsella]

Is there someone you think I should add?

No, he's just pointing out that all of those people are statists.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo136.html
Alexander Hamilton put forward an amendment to make the president elected for life during the convention.
He believed that the government could do whatever it wanted to, unless it was specifically restricted by the constitution.
He believed that government should help business.
He is the father of big government. He is no friend to liberty.
I respect his life story, but to me that runs secondary to almost singlehandedly screwing up this country's future.
And Burr was a self serving asshole, I'm not defending him. He was a federalist as well.

qft. btw, George Washington liked to be addressed by a royal title when he was president. ("His Majesty, The President", or something like that) He only stopped because people kept laughing at him.

 

[ConsideringRonPaul]

This poll is akin to asking

who is your current favorite politician

1. John Kerry
2. Barack Obama
3. John McCain
4. Mitty Romney
5. Rick Santorum
6. Barney Frank
7. Jim Demint
8. Nancy Pelosi

THEY ALL FUCKING SUCK.

I beg to differ. For if you believe the founders "suck" than I don't really understand why you are on these boards supporting Ron Paul/ liberty. Ron's entire political philosophy can be derived from the thought of different founders (no natl bank from Jefferson, no foreign entanglements from Washington, strong gun supporter like all the founders, etc etc.) The founding fathers were among the most brilliant men of all times and you owe your current freedom to them. I don't know what you dislike about them as a whole (I can understand individual disagreements however).

And for the record I would choose Demint out of that list.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Jefferson wins the poll. Pretty ironic. Almost evertything about Jefferson would be slammed on the RP forums if he was president today.
Held 700 people hostage and lived an extreme lavish elite lifestyle on the backs of those slaves.
Went to war without a declaration.
Was a chickenhawk to the point he even got called out on his poor leadership as governor of virginia because he ran to his second home.
And by todays standard he would also be charged with sexual harrassment and rape.

Modern presidents and candidates actually seem pretty tame. The is a very good reason RP did not pick TJ as his most admired president.

I agree.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I beg to differ. For if you believe the founders "suck" than I don't really understand why you are on these boards supporting Ron Paul/ liberty. Ron's entire political philosophy can be derived from the thought of different founders (no natl bank from Jefferson, no foreign entanglements from Washington, strong gun supporter like all the founders, etc etc.) The founding fathers were among the most brilliant men of all times and you owe your current freedom to them. I don't know what you dislike about them as a whole (I can understand individual disagreements however).

And for the record I would choose Demint out of that list.

It's called rational self-interest and educating the masses. Rothbard engaged in electoral politics for these reasons as well.

 

[SisCyn]

What a convincing argument: basically saying the founders might seem Christian but no, no, no: because that doesn't fit your agenda, your going to quote a few random guys and "prove" that the founders were indeed just out to dupe the masses through hypocritical Christian proclamations even though there is absolutely no evidence to validate this claim.

And Hitler and Mussolini.... really, who believes they were actually Christian. Hitler believed in astrology and other superstitions combined with extreme Darwinian racism.

Lincoln was at one time an atheist but had a conversion and became a very strong Christian.

Napoleon always thought himself a bit of a semi-God, as evidenced when he crowned himself Emperor and thought of himself as greater than the pope.

The other guys/ quotes are somewhat irrelevant and not exactly verifiable, nor particularly pertinent to the discussion at hand

And why would you quote me asking you not to just google and paste quotes and then go and google and paste quotes??

Why does any of this make any difference?

If the Constitution says that Congress will make no law establishing a religion, and then we turn around and call ourselves a Christian nation, didn't we just establish a religion?

I always feel that those who say that the United States is a Christian nation are really saying that Christians are the majority and therefore are the ruling class.

Isn't that why there was to be no establishment of religion? Are we supposed to be a "classless socieity?"

 

[Cutlerzzz]

Went to war without a declaration.

Link?

 

[PierzStyx]

I'll come out an say it -I'M A FEDERALIST AND PROUD OF IT. I believe the best form of government we could have is the type of federal government laid out in the Constitution of the United States of America. Does this mean I approve of everything every Federalist party member ever did? Heck no. Its similar to how a person can be a conservative but not like what the Republicans are doing. So putting that aside, the ideas of government and freedom enshrined in the Constitution are the source of America's greatness and I believe the formation of the states into a Federal union was the best governmental idea they ever had.

 

[Cutlerzzz]

No, he's just pointing out that all of those people are statists.

Hamilton, Marshall, Washington, and Adams?

 

[Jtorsella]

I'll come out an say it -I'M A FEDERALIST AND PROUD OF IT. I believe the best form of government we could have is the type of federal government laid out in the Constitution of the United States of America. Does this mean I approve of everything every Federalist party member ever did? Heck no. Its similar to how a person can be a conservative but not like what the Republicans are doing. So putting that aside, the ideas of government and freedom enshrined in the Constitution are the source of America's greatness and I believe the formation of the states into a Federal union was the best governmental idea they ever had.

So you are a pre 1790 federalist then. After that they shifted to being loose constructionists.

 

[PierzStyx]

Why does any of this make any difference?

If the Constitution says that Congress will make no law establishing a religion, and then we turn around and call ourselves a Christian nation, didn't we just establish a religion?

I always feel that those who say that the United States is a Christian nation are really saying that Christians are the majority and therefore are the ruling class.

Isn't that why there was to be no establishment of religion? Are we supposed to be a "classless socieity?"

Not at all. Marxism is a classless society. The Constitution acknowledges the different classes in society and does nothing to obliterate them. It simply makes individuals in them equal before the law. Its a way to ensure that one class doesn't dominate another but it does nothing to eliminate them.

 

[PierzStyx]

Link?

They're called the Barbary Wars. Go Wiki them.

 

[Jtorsella]

Hamilton, Marshall, Washington, and Adams?

Yes, With Hamilton and Marshall being the most egregious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Marshall
Go to the major supreme court cases, esp. McCulloch v. Maryland and Marbury v. Madison. Every major decision decimated states' rights.

 

[klamath]

Link?

First Barbary WarMain article: Barbary Wars
When Jefferson became president in 1801, the United States was at the time paying $80,000 to the Barbary states as a 'tribute' for protection against North African piracy. For decades, the pirates had been capturing American ships and crew members and demanding huge ransoms for their release. Before Independence, from 1775 until 1783, American merchant ships were protected from the Barbary pirates by the naval and diplomatic influence of Great Britain. When the American Revolution began, American ships were protected by the 1778 alliance with France, which required the French nation to protect "American vessels and effects against all violence, insults, attacks ...". On December 20, 1777, Morocco's Sultan Mohammed III declared that the American merchant ships would be under the protection of the sultanate and could thus enjoy safe passage into the Mediterranean and along the coast. The Moroccan-American Treaty of Friendship stands as the U.S.'s oldest non-broken friendship treaty.[75][76] The one with Morocco has been the longest-lasting treaty with a foreign power.

After the United States gained independence, it had to protect its own merchant vessels. It also had to pay $80,000 as tribute to the Barbary states, as did Britain and France at this time. When Tripoli made new demands on the new President for a prompt payment of $225,000 and an annual payment of $25,000, Jefferson refused and decided it would be easier to fight the pirates than to continue to pay bribes. On May 10, 1801, the pasha of Tripoli declared war on the United States and the First Barbary War began. As secretary of state and vice president, Jefferson had opposed funds for a Navy to be used for anything more than a coastal defense, however the continued pirate attacks on American shipping interests in the Atlantic and Mediterranean and the systematic kidnapping of American crew members could no longer be ignored. President Jefferson ordered a fleet of naval vessels to various points in the Mediterranean. He forced Tunis and Algiers into breaking their alliance with Tripoli which ultimately forced it out of the fight. Jefferson also ordered five separate naval bombardments of Tripoli, which restored peace in the Mediterranean for a while.[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson#Personal_life

 

[ConsideringRonPaul]

Why does any of this make any difference?

If the Constitution says that Congress will make no law establishing a religion, and then we turn around and call ourselves a Christian nation, didn't we just establish a religion?

I always feel that those who say that the United States is a Christian nation are really saying that Christians are the majority and therefore are the ruling class.

Isn't that why there was to be no establishment of religion? Are we supposed to be a "classless society?"

Congress cannot establish the Church of the USA, meaning an official denomination which is supported and funded by the government and citizenry. That is all the Constitution says. Saying we are a nation that is in the tradition of and governs with Judeo-Christian principles is not establishing a national church. Christians are and have always undoubtedly been the majority. However, the Constitution also emphasizes freedom of religion meaning that we are not some ruling class that can strip any other citizens of their right to freely practice whichever religion they choose.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I'll come out an say it -I'M A FEDERALIST AND PROUD OF IT. I believe the best form of government we could have is the type of federal government laid out in the Constitution of the United States of America. Does this mean I approve of everything every Federalist party member ever did? Heck no. Its similar to how a person can be a conservative but not like what the Republicans are doing. So putting that aside, the ideas of government and freedom enshrined in the Constitution are the source of America's greatness and I believe the formation of the states into a Federal union was the best governmental idea they ever had.

Why? The US presidency (in conjunction with congress, of course) has been one of the most murderous regimes in history. Can you name a non-democratic/non-republican government that has murdered and terrorized as many people, foreign and domestic as the American regime has?

 

[Cutlerzzz]

First Barbary WarMain article: Barbary Wars
When Jefferson became president in 1801, the United States was at the time paying $80,000 to the Barbary states as a 'tribute' for protection against North African piracy. For decades, the pirates had been capturing American ships and crew members and demanding huge ransoms for their release. Before Independence, from 1775 until 1783, American merchant ships were protected from the Barbary pirates by the naval and diplomatic influence of Great Britain. When the American Revolution began, American ships were protected by the 1778 alliance with France, which required the French nation to protect "American vessels and effects against all violence, insults, attacks ...". On December 20, 1777, Morocco's Sultan Mohammed III declared that the American merchant ships would be under the protection of the sultanate and could thus enjoy safe passage into the Mediterranean and along the coast. The Moroccan-American Treaty of Friendship stands as the U.S.'s oldest non-broken friendship treaty.[75][76] The one with Morocco has been the longest-lasting treaty with a foreign power.

After the United States gained independence, it had to protect its own merchant vessels. It also had to pay $80,000 as tribute to the Barbary states, as did Britain and France at this time. When Tripoli made new demands on the new President for a prompt payment of $225,000 and an annual payment of $25,000, Jefferson refused and decided it would be easier to fight the pirates than to continue to pay bribes. On May 10, 1801, the pasha of Tripoli declared war on the United States and the First Barbary War began. As secretary of state and vice president, Jefferson had opposed funds for a Navy to be used for anything more than a coastal defense, however the continued pirate attacks on American shipping interests in the Atlantic and Mediterranean and the systematic kidnapping of American crew members could no longer be ignored. President Jefferson ordered a fleet of naval vessels to various points in the Mediterranean. He forced Tunis and Algiers into breaking their alliance with Tripoli which ultimately forced it out of the fight. Jefferson also ordered five separate naval bombardments of Tripoli, which restored peace in the Mediterranean for a while.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson#Personal_life

Thomas Woods seems to believe that the Barbary War was legal.

http://www.tomwoods.com/warpowers/

 

[Cutlerzzz]

Yes, With Hamilton and Marshall being the most egregious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Marshall
Go to the major supreme court cases, esp. McCulloch v. Maryland and Marbury v. Madison. Every major decision decimated states' rights.

Nah. Hamilton and Marshall were true Constitutionalists, and great Americans.