Why government should always have more power than private business.

Ok, no offense, but this just awful. Seriously, it makes me even wonder if the guy read Polanyi's book.

He says:

"The reason is that the free market is (1) what men have turned to when they have been allowed freedom of choice, and (2) what men should turn to if they are to enjoy the full stature of men, if they are to satisfy their wants, and mould nature to their purposes. For it is the market that brings us the standard of living of civilization."

This is simply, utterly, and completely false. There is nothing more natural about a market economy than a gift economy, for example. In fact, there are literally limitless ways we could organize an economy, and this is easily found in the countless tribes and cultures studied by anthropologists. Again, historically, markets had to be pushed onto people, and this is a historical fact, whether it fits into your narrative or not. I would like to see the evidence supporting his first claim. The second claim doesn't even make sense here, as it is only the author's opinion.

Someone here doesn't have the remotest understanding of economics or the motivations of human interactions. I may provide some bit of enlightenment should that person become open to the idea that they are wrong in their ideas.

A truly free market economy is based on the basic human rights of property and to freely associate and to contract with each other. It is governed by the Non-Aggression Principle. What this means is that a person owns something and that no one else under any circumstances has any right to what that person owns. What that person does with their property is of no one's else's concern. If that person wishes to trade his property for the property of another person, no one other than those two have any right to any part of that association and contract.
The above is the natural state of the most basic building block of economy. There were many native American tribes that practiced a truly free market economy until the white man came and taught them government.

"I therefore must conclude that this is Polanyi’s sole basic complaint against the free society and the free market: they do not permit him, or any of his friends, or anyone else, to use force to coerce someone else into doing what Polanyi or anyone else wants. "

Here, the author reveals to us that he sees in Polanyi some kind of hidden motive? Or something? That Polanyi wants to destroy the "free market" so that he can control people? That's not a legitimate critique of Polanyi's ideas. I wonder if he even read the book. And we could easily turn this around: private business use the ideology of the "free market" to coerce and control the community: "The government can't tell us not to dump toxic chemicals in the water, that's against the free market! The government can't tell us not to abuse our workers, that's against the free market!" And so on and so on...
First, lets start with that quote in full context:
I mentioned that the free society would permit Polanyi or any who agree with him to abandon the market and find whatever other forms suit them. But one thing and one thing alone the free society would not permit Polanyi to do: to use coercion over the rest of us. It will let him join a commune, but it will not let him force you or me into his commune. This is the sole difference, and I therefore must conclude that this is Polanyi’s sole basic complaint against the free society and the free market: they do not permit him, or any of his friends, or anyone else, to use force to coerce someone else into doing what Polanyi or anyone else wants. It does not permit force and violence, it does not permit dictation, it does not permit theft, it does not permit exploitation. I must conclude that the type of world, which Polanyi would force us back into, is precisely the world of coercion, dictation, and exploitation. And all this in the name of "humanity"? Truly, Polanyi, like his fellow-thinkers, is the "humanitarian with the guillotine." (See Isabel Paterson’s profound work of political theory, The God of the Machine, Putnam’s, 1943).
Now that we have the full context of the quote, lets see about your response. Private Business requires the VOLUNTARY interaction with the people who desire the things the business is willing to trade them to function. Socialism requires the MANDITORY compliance with arbitrary rules and the forfeiture of the most basic of human rights, the right to property, for it to function. Socialism/Communism is based entirely on the use of force to violate the property rights of everyone by stealing their property, coercing everyone into compliance, and exploiting them by claiming ownership over the fruits of everyone's labors.

In the third paragraph, the author is arguing that "society" does not exist, that we are only individuals, which shows the author is misusing the concepts of Universal and Particular. Sure, we could say that "fruit" does not exist, that there are only apples and oranges, but these two situations are not the same. "Society" is just a term used to refer to the totality of social relations amongst any group of people who share a culture. Society does exist, societies do exist. Can you honestly say that you are part of no society?
(In Yoda's voice)Make an idiot of yourself, you did.
The only intelligible way of defining society is as: the array of voluntary interpersonal relations. And preeminent amongst such voluntary interrelations is the free market! In short, the market, and the interrelations arising from the market, is society, or at least the bulk and the heart of it. In fact, contrary to Polanyi and other’s statements that sociability and fellowship comes before the market; the truth is virtually the reverse; for it is only because the market and its division of labor permits mutual gain among men, that they can afford to be sociable and friendly, and that amicable relations can ensue. For, in the jungle, in the tribal and caste societies, there is not mutual benefit but warfare for scarce resources!

The author then says, "For, in the jungle, in the tribal and caste societies, there is not mutual benefit but warfare for scarce resources!" which is just blatantly and laughably false.
Ah, yes. I do remember learning about all of the tribal wars fought over highly obscene Your Mama Jokes.

Finally, in the last paragraph, he says that we have political freedoms because of the market. "Polanyi thinks he can preserve the effect (freedom of speech, or industrial civilization), while destroying the cause (the free market, private property rights, etc.)" This, honestly, is just a really stupid assertion and I wonder how he justifies such a claim.
In a socialistic society, people can't freely do things or it doesn't work. People who work hard realize that they get just as much as people who don't so the motivation to achieve greatness is gone. Eventually you end up with an economy like the Soviets which imploded in on it's own vast stupidity. If people are free to do as they wish, it's not exactly socialism is it.

Look, that was just awful. You can do better! Come on...
I have already lost faith in your ability to do better.
 
Currently the tail wags the dog. Corporations pull the strings of governments. We have corporate fascism. One of the reasons why we have the odd financial crash.
 
Currently the tail wags the dog. Corporations pull the strings of governments. We have corporate fascism. One of the reasons why we have the odd financial crash.

Yeah, what we need to do is hand over all the resources we need to survive to the government like they did in Taiwan...
 
Currently the tail wags the dog. Corporations pull the strings of governments. We have corporate fascism. One of the reasons why we have the odd financial crash.
Yeah, I know! The poor, powerless government just can't defend itself! Poor government! The most powerful organization the world has even seen and it's still a helpless victim!

(The expression the tail wags the dog should help you get a clue. TAILS CAN'T AND DON'T WAG DOGS. IT'S THE MOTHERFUCKING DOG. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.)
 
Last edited:
Governments have to get themselves out of the clutches of Corporations and get control again.

We have corporate fascism.

Some banks know they are too big to go under in that they know governments will bail them out when it hits the fan. Governments need more control of the financial sector.
 
A truly free market economy is based on the basic human rights of property and to freely associate and to contract with each other.

The free-market is based on the three factors of production:

LAND - all land and its resources
CAPITAL - all man made things, inc money
LABOR - human mental and physical effort

When the above runs free and unrigged, the free-market works brilliantly.

Corporations were developed to counter the free-market and corner it.

Reagan & Thatcher rigged the LABOR aspect of the market in driving its costs down. They off-shored manufacturing to the Far East. People were earning so little because of their obsessions, there was not enough money in people's wages to keep the economy moving enough, so they relaxed credit so they could buy the goods....then the consequences were dire .....and and later came the Credit Crunch.

Obama is rigging LABOR in the market right now, backed by the Republicans. Look at this:



Geonomics encourages the free-market.
 
Last edited:
Governments have to get themselves out of the clutches of Corporations and get control again.

We have corporate fascism.

Some banks know they are too big to go under in that they know governments will bail them out when it hits the fan. Governments need more control of the financial sector.

Or remove control and watch the fraudulent banks implode with out the nanny state propping them up and creating enormous moral hazard.
 
Let's say that I inherit a ton of money. I decide to invest it in a restaurant somewhere, and maybe I've never been there, doesn't even matter. So I give the money to someone who wants to start a restaurant. Well, a restaurant doesn't run itself, right? We need workers. So we hire some desperate people to do boring, monotonous, stressful work (cooking, cleaning, serving, dealing with annoying customers all day, etc.) And so long as they keep working, and so long as customers keep coming, I, the investor, keep making money, whether I am doing any work or not. Part of the value produced by the worker's labor is siphoned off so that I keep making money. I can then invest money all over the place, reaping profits from my investments, and if I don't want to, I never have to work again! Isn't capitalism wonderful? (And I want more money! Cut the workers' wages! And if I hear one peep about a union you're ALL FIRED!)

If you are not putting tremendous amounts of work into choosing your investments and partners then you will go broke in no time at all.

Investing in firms and hiring good staff is actually extremely time consuming and requires dedication. Giving your money to Goldman Sachs and expecting 8% is how you end up beyond bankrupt. That is what happened to everyone in 2008. They didn't do the work, they just expected free money and they were robbed blind.

Being wealthy doesn't just happen in a free market. Look at the Dow Jones Industrial Index, there are maybe four companies on it that have been there for more than fifty years. Big companies go bang and die really fast and quite often when the people at the top slack off for even a moment. Unless the government is paying to hide their mistakes.
 
Geonomics encourages the free-market.

"Land rent makes the Kuomintang (KMT), the corrupt ruling party that has been in power since Chiang Kai-shek took refuge on Formosa over fifty years ago, the richest political party in the world. Not only does the KMT own about a quarter of the island's economy legally, they also collect an enormous amount of graft. " - Jeffery J. Smith
President, Geonomy Society
 
The free-market is based on the three factors of production:

LAND - all land and its resources
CAPITAL - all man made things, inc money
LABOR - human mental and physical effort

When the above runs free and unrigged, the free-market works brilliantly.

See, this is where you are wrong. Land, capital and labor does not an economy make. The economy is quite simply basic human interaction.

Corporations were developed to counter the free-market and corner it.

Wrong again. Corporations were developed to hedge risk.

Reagan & Thatcher rigged the LABOR aspect of the market in driving its costs down. They off-shored manufacturing to the Far East. People were earning so little because of their obsessions, there was not enough money in people's wages to keep the economy moving enough, so they relaxed credit so they could buy the goods....then the consequences were dire .....and and later came the Credit Crunch.

Still wrong. I won't speak for Thatcher, but I will say this about Reagan. He had little to do with manufacturing moving to Asia. The congress had a minimum wage that kept employers from and employees from trading below an arbitrary amount(minimum wage) which made it more profitable for those companies to ship their manufacturing to Asia where the very low worker pay made up for the shipping cost. Naturally with fewer employed there is less consumption. So the FED(government) lowered interest rates(inflation) which lead to increased temporary consumption, with so much liquidity in the financial markets there was volatility, which in turn lead to the FED increasing credit rates which in turn causes a panic.
 
See, this is where you are wrong. Land, capital and labor does not an economy make. The economy is quite simply basic human interaction.

Pay attention please. The factors of production are the core of a free-market - when unrigged. Governments must ensure these three points are not meddled with and they do not themselves meddle with them.

Corporations were developed to hedge risk - in short bucking the free-market.

I will say this about Reagan. He had little to do with manufacturing moving to Asia.

Totally wrong. Marx mainly wrote on the Failures of Capitalism. Overall he was pretty well right in his observations and analysis. He was short on solutions. David Harvey will give you an outline of how we are in the situation we are in. He say he doesn't have an answer. I do - Geonomics. Look on:

 
Last edited:
Hey OP,

When you find yourself turning to the government for solutions, that should be a red flag that you haven't explored all of your options. There is nothing, NOTHING the government can do for you that won't put someone else in your shoes with the same lack of a solution.

What I would suggest, put yourself in a situation where the only person you can depend on is YOU. There is massive oppression in the world today, and it's building. You are wasting your time if you think other people are going to act the way you want them to so that your life will be better. In fact, this type of thinking is what I would call SELF-oppression.

Your concerns are valid OP, your solutions, IMO are steeped in self-pity, self-oppression, and yes even self-hate. The government you seek, in fact the ONLY government that will answer your call and provide you with exactly what you need, is SELF-GOVERNMENT. OP, LEARN to govern yourself and YOU WILL have all the power YOU ever need to overcome ALL the oppression, and ALL the injustices and lack of privilege that you may be suffering.

SELF-GOVERNMENT is the ONLY government with power and righteousness to provide you EVERYTHING you want and need!
 
SELF-GOVERNMENT is the ONLY government with power and righteousness to provide you EVERYTHING you want and need!

That is very admirable. But whatever your views we have government whether you like it or not or think so or not. They do influence our lives. It is up to us to get them to do the best for us. It is no good pretending they do not exist.
 
Marx mainly wrote on the Failures of Capitalism. Overall he was pretty well right in his observations and analysis. He was short on solutions. David Harvey will give you an outline of how we are in the situation we are in. He say he doesn't have an answer. I do - Geonomics. Look on:



What a load of crap... Marx was a complete idiot. I wish you had a chance to spend half of your life in a "Marxist country" like me to see how beautiful his ideas are.
 
That is very admirable. But whatever your views we have government whether you like it or not or think so or not. They do influence our lives. It is up to us to get them to do the best for us. It is no good pretending they do not exist.

Might I ask exactly how many years have you sent money into "The-Government" in the form of income and property tax?

Reason I ask is the views you express sound more like a young idealist than those of an over-taxed property owner..
 
Last edited:
What a load of crap... Marx was a complete idiot. I wish you had a chance to spend half of your life in a "Marxist country" like me to see how beautiful his ideas are.

Not another brainwashed one. Marx was not an idiot at all. As I wrote, most of his writing were of the Failures of Capitalism. He got most of that pretty well right. His solutions were interpreted wrongly in many Commie countries. He got a hell of a lot wrong in his solutions. But his analysis of the Failures of Capitalism were pretty sound. That is why Marx never goes away. Some of his works are required reading in some economic courses.

The Video is not about Marxism at all - if you noticed. It was how we got into the situation we are in now. Prof Harvey is at NY uni. He did a briliant job in this video.
 
Last edited:
Given the subjective nature of value, the gift economy is shown to be a free market economy. Unfortunately, anthropologists generally don't know economics and so don't recognize that what is being traded in gift economies is reputation and social obligations not worthless gifts.

There are not "limitless" ways to organize an economy, in fact there are only two: Voluntary exchange (free market) or forceful coercion (political). See Oppenheimer for more.

Polanyi's motives are not hidden in the least. He clearly wants to use force to control others. The situation is not symmetrical, since people are not free to choose once the political method is entered.

"Society" is just a term used to refer to the totality of social relations amongst any group of people who share a culture.
Yes, and assuming we are talking voluntary relations, how is this distinct from the Free Market?
 
Might I ask exactly how many years have you sent money into "The-Government" in the form of income and property tax?

Reason I ask is the views you express sound more like a young idealist than those an over-taxed property owner..

You sound like you are in La-La land not the real world. Government is there. Get used to it. Use the democratic system to manipulate it.

Anarchy is not going to happen.
 
Back
Top