Trump to terminate birthright citizenship

Good discussion about the 14th amendment (birthright citizenship) by a constitutional scholar.

4-5 minutes starting at 7:37



And I will return again to my first key question, which is what was the original intent. Assuming this guy is accurately portraying the history, and he says that his source is the original debates, the words “under the jurisdiction” was meant to mean that a person was only subject to the jurisdiction of the US, and not subject to laws or citizenship of another nation.

Interesting, as that might also have ramifications for dual citizenship.

Carry on...
 
And I will return again to my first key question, which is what was the original intent. Assuming this guy is accurately portraying the history, and he says that his source is the original debates, the words “under the jurisdiction” was meant to mean that a person was only subject to the jurisdiction of the US, and not subject to laws or citizenship of another nation.

Interesting, as that might also have ramifications for dual citizenship.

Carry on...
Indeed.
 
We have more than one. Why on Earth we are discussing diplomatic immunity in a thread about birthright citizenship escapes me.
Because diplomats are the classic example of someone who is not subject to our jurisdiction and whose children don't get citizenship.
 
Some background...

The Civil War ended on May 9, 1865. Just more than three years later, on July 9, 1868, the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was passed. This amendment and the 13th and 15th amendments were a part of the Reconstruction Era of the United States, which focused on civil rights and rebuilding the war-torn nation. The 14th Amendment states that every person born or naturalized in America is a citizen of the country as well as their state of residence.

Some southern states began actively passing laws that restricted the rights of former slaves after the Civil War, and Congress responded with the 14th Amendment, designed to place limits on states' power as well as protect civil rights. To be readmitted to the Union after the Civil War, southern states had to ratify the 14th Amendment. Initially, Native Americans were not granted citizenship by this amendment because they were under the jurisdiction of tribal laws. It was not until 1924 that Congress passed the Indian Citizenship Act, which granted Native Americans citizenship rights as well.
...
https://employment.law.tulane.edu/articles/history-of-law-the-fourteenth-amendment

And how should the first sentence’s restriction to persons “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States be understood? When adopted, that clause, which was drafted against the backdrop of the Civil Rights Act, was clearly understood to withhold birthright citizenship from the American-born children of foreign diplomats present in this country, because under international law diplomats and their families were largely immune from the legal control and the courts of their host country. The limiting clause also was understood not to grant birthright citizenship to various members of Indian tribes whose political relations with the United States limited its authority over the tribes’ members. The scope of the limiting clause is a matter of political controversy today.
...
https://constitutioncenter.org/inte...use-by-akhil-amar-and-john-harrison/clause/56
 
Jus soli is a goofy concept, and one that no one actually believes in. If they did, they would argue that a child born to American parents in Saudi Arabia was Saudi, not American.
 
Puerto Ricans had Spanish Citizenship at the time it was awarded to the U.S and yet congress had to pass a law decades after to make people born on the island U.S. citizens. Why do illegal aliens get special treatment?
 
Jus soli is a goofy concept, and one that no one actually believes in. If they did, they would argue that a child born to American parents in Saudi Arabia was Saudi, not American.

That would be up to Saudi Arabia to decide if that child would be considered one of their citizens. A person can be the citizen of more than one country. If the child's parents were American Citizens, then the child would be. If Saudi Arabia decided to say the child was one of their citizens, the kid would have both citizenships.

In terms of actual practice, the father would have to be Saudi for the kid to be considered a Saudi citizen. https://www.multiplecitizenship.com/wscl/ws_SAUDI_ARABIA.html
 
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That would be up to Saudi Arabia to decide if that child would be considered one of their citizens. A person can be the citizen of more than one country. If the child's parents were American Citizens, then the child would be. If Saudi Arabia decided to say the child was one of their citizens, the kid would have both citizenships.

In terms of actual practice, the father would have to be Saudi for the kid to be considered a Saudi citizen.

Yes, of course it would be up to Saudi Arabia to decide which people are citizens. It doesn't change the fact that if you think citizenship should be awarded based on where you popped out of the womb, you have to think it should apply to everyone. But no one actually believes this, it's always a one-way street in these people's minds. They think (or claim to think) of a Mexican born in the US as American, but they also think of an American born in Japan as American. It's not so much a matter of law as of logic.
 
How does that change the reality that swordshyll is arguing against his own stated opinion?

Yeah, the post gave you all those irrelevant feelz. Who cares? You in no way disproved--nor addressed, nor, apparently, even understood--what he said.. So why would anyone care about your unrelated and irrelevant feelz?

Aww, I'm flattered. I wonder what throngs of people are reading the Tulsa riot thread, and picking sides, right this minute.
It only stings if it's true.
 
What is legal is what Trump signs by EO, then gets the new full powered Rubber stamp GOP congress, and then off to the supreme court to shoot the shit with Thomas, Kavenaugh, Gorsuch.

The rest of the arguing on here is conjecture.
 
It is always problematic to attempt to interpret words and meaning from the past using current definitions and usage. It gets even harder when the people who originally wrote the words intensely debated the meaning such that they came up with a meaning and intent that was very specific to their current situation.

In other words, they created a unique definition specific to their discussion and intent. Modern interpretation is meaningless out of context.

The Key Phrase: ‘Subject to the Jurisdiction Thereof’

Howard and Trumbull see the phrase “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” as key in determining the limits of citizenship. In a response to Anton in the Washington Post, Elizabeth Wydra dismisses the importance of this phrase as a fixation of those who “deny the plain meaning of the citizenship clause.”

However, the meaning of this phrase was the central topic of debate precisely because it qualified who was to be considered a citizen in the citizenship clause. It is this phrase that made it clear that Indians were not included because even though they were born on American soil, they were not under the full and complete jurisdiction of the United States.

For Sen. Trumbull, “It is only those persons who come completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws, that we think of making citizens.” Senator Johnson agreed, stating that he knows “of no better way to give rise to citizenship than the fact of birth within the territory of the United States, born of parents who at the time were subject to the authority of the United States.”

Jurisdiction, says Sen. Howard, “ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, coextensive in all respects with the constitutional power of the United States […], that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now.” In other words, the citizenship clause does not cover those who are not under the United States’ full and complete jurisdiction.

Williams clarifies this point at the end of the debate. “In one sense,” he says, “all persons born within the geographical limits of the United States are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States [they are still expected to obey the laws of the land and be punished for breaking them], but they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in every sense [they are still subject to the jurisdiction of a foreign government to which they owe allegiance].”

Two-thirds of the senators present for the vote agreed that no further clarification was needed to make sure the amendment excluded Indians. Only those under the full and complete jurisdiction of the United States are included in the clause. The fact that this amendment did not authorize birthright citizenship as it exists today is demonstrated further by the fact that Native Americans did not gain U.S. citizenship en masse when this amendment passed, in 1868, but 56 years later, with an act of Congress.

Regardless of whether we should have birthright citizenship today or not, it is clear that the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment did not intend individuals not subject to the full and complete jurisdiction of the United States to be included as citizens. It is hard to believe that they would have accepted our modern conception of “birthright citizenship,” in which any person, regardless of whether they are in the country legally, and regardless of their parents’ citizenship, can claim U.S. citizenship.

It is clear that individuals within the territory of the United States, under a tourist or student visa, or who have crossed the border illegally, are not under the full and complete jurisdiction of the United States, but are still under the jurisdiction, at least in part, of a foreign nation.
...
http://thefederalist.com/2018/07/23/no-fourteenth-amendment-not-authorize-birthright-citizenship/
 
It is always problematic to attempt to interpret words and meaning from the past using current definitions and usage. It gets even harder when the people who originally wrote the words intensely debated the meaning such that they came up with a meaning and intent that was very specific to their current situation.

In other words, they created a unique definition specific to their discussion and intent. Modern interpretation is meaningless out of context.

The fact that this amendment did not authorize birthright citizenship as it exists today is demonstrated further by the fact that Native Americans did not gain U.S. citizenship en masse when this amendment passed, in 1868, but 56 years later, with an act of Congress.


Just like Puerto Ricans!
 
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