• Welcome to our new home!

    Please share any thoughts or issues here.


Birthright Citizenship Isn’t Real

Brian4Liberty

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
62,389
Birthright Citizenship Isn’t Real

Birthright Citizenship Isn’t Real
Ryan McMaken - 01/21/2025

Donald Trump yesterday issued a new executive order declaring that so-called “birthright citizenship” does not apply to the children of foreign nationals residing illegally within the United States. The order reads, in part:

"(a) It is the policy of the United States that no department or agency of the United States government shall issue documents recognizing United States citizenship, or accept documents issued by State, local, or other governments or authorities purporting to recognize United States citizenship, to persons: (1) when that person’s mother was unlawfully present in the United States and the person’s father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth, or (2) when that person’s mother’s presence in the United States was lawful but temporary, and the person’s father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth."​

There is a common misconception in the United States that the Fourteenth Amendment to the US Constitution mandates that the US government grant citizenship to anyone and everyone born within the borders of the United States. This misconception is largely due to the fact that, for several decades, US courts and technocrats have conspired to redefine the original meaning of the amendment, and thus apply it to every child of every tourist and foreign national who happens to be born on this side of the US border.

Some have even attempted to define access to birthright citizenship as some sort of natural right. This is a common tactic among some libertarians who have twisted the idea of property rights to extend the idea of a “right” to the governmental administrative act known as “naturalization.”

Even when looking at the issue strictly in terms of procedural legal rights, however, it is clear that the current definition of birthright citizenship is in conflict with the law as originally intended and interpreted.

To understand the central point of contention, let’s note the text of the Fourteenth Amendment itself, which states that citizenship shall be extended to: “[a]ll persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof…” Note that there are two qualifying phrases here. The persons in question must be both born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.

It is this second qualification that remains a matter of debate.

What does it mean to be subject to the jurisdiction of the United States? This issue is explained by legal scholar Hans Spakovsky who notes that advocates of granting birthright citizenship to anyone born in the United States

"erroneously believe that anyone present in the United States has “subjected” himself “to the jurisdiction” of the United States, which would extend citizenship to the children of tourists, diplomats, and illegal aliens alike.

But that is not what that qualifying phrase means. Its original meaning refers to the political allegiance of an individual and the jurisdiction that a foreign government has over that individual.

The fact that a tourist or illegal alien is subject to our laws and our courts if they violate our laws does not place them within the political “jurisdiction” of the United States as that phrase was defined by the framers of the 14th Amendment.

This amendment’s language was derived from the 1866 Civil Rights Act, which provided that “[a]ll persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power” would be considered citizens.

Sen. Lyman Trumbull, a key figure in the adoption of the 14th Amendment, said that “subject to the jurisdiction” of the U.S. included not owing allegiance to any other country."​

The courts themselves have historically recognized this distinction, noting that the whole purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was to grant citizenship to former slaves who obviously were not connected to any other country or sovereign. In the Slaughter-House Cases, 83 U.S. 36 (1872), the court ruled:

"That [the Fourteenth Amendment’s] main purpose was to establish the citizenship of the negro can admit of no doubt. The phrase ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States."​

That second sentence is key: ”The phrase ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation ... citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.” This was further confirmed by the Court in 1884 (in Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U.S. 94) when the Court stated that the idea of birthright citizenship did not apply to Native American tribes which were nonetheless within the borders of the United States:

“[The Fourteenth Amendment] contemplates two sources of citizenship, and two sources only: birth and naturalization. The persons declared to be citizens are ‘all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.’ The evident meaning of these last words is, not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction, and owing them direct and immediate allegiance. And the words relate to the time of birth in the one case, as they do to the time of naturalization in the other. Persons not thus subject to the jurisdiction of the United States at the time of birth cannot become so afterwards, except by being naturalized, either individually, as by proceedings under the naturalization acts; or collectively, as by the force of a treaty by which foreign territory is acquired. Indians born within the territorial limits of the United States, members of, and owing immediate allegiance to, one of the Indian tribes (an alien though dependent power,) although in a geographical sense born in the United States, are no more ‘born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,’ within the meaning of the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment, than the children of subjects of any foreign government born within the domain of that government, or the children born within the United States, of ambassadors or other public ministers of foreign nations.”​

In short, the court recognized that the tribal lands were within the legal jurisdiction of the United States, but this did not mean that everyone born within those borders was automatically granted citizenship. Those tribal members believed to be subjects of “foreign” tribal governments were therefore not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States in a way that conferred automatic citizenship.

Congress further reinforced the court’s interpretation by adopting new legislation granting citizenship to all tribal members in 1924. Had the Fourteenth Amendment really granted automatic citizenship to everyone born within the borders of the United States, no such legislation would have been necessary.

In the year 2024, however, advocates of the new and novel interpretation of “birthright citizenship” insist that the child of foreign nationals automatically becomes a citizen of the United States based entirely on the location of birth.

This is a rather odd way of doing things. In historical practice nearly everywhere, citizenship depends largely on the citizenship of parents, or on the parents’ place of birth, and not on the place where parents happen to temporarily reside when the child is born. Thus, historically and globally, the child of foreign nationals is himself a foreign national. This is true, for instance, of children born to American nationals overseas.

Only in the United States does there appear to be widespread confusion about this.

Of course, some libertarian or “classical liberal” readers might argue that such legal precedents are meaningless, and that everyone “deserves” the legal “right” of citizenship. How citizenship is any sort of natural right or property right, however, remains a mystery. Has the child somehow “homesteaded” his citizenship? Obviously not. Has the child entered into a contract with a legitimate property owner to acquire the “property” of citizenship? To ask these questions is to see the absurdity of them.

On the other hand, it is important to note that a lack of citizenship in any particular place does not negate anyone’s property rights. Real property rights—what Rothbard called “universal rights”—exist regardless of one’s citizenship, where he lives, or where he happens to have been born.
...
https://mises.org/power-market/birthright-citizenship-isnt-real
 
I agree, democrats are unable to differentiate a person in our country illegally vs a person invited in through our legal immigration system. Babies born to parents not following our immigration law should not be citizens, and it is clear the amendment should be read in this manner.
 
"

The situation regarding immigration policies under the Biden administration, particularly those involving the use of applications or parole programs for entry, is complex and subject to various legal frameworks. Here's a breakdown:


Legal Entry vs. Asylum Claims:
Legal Entry via Apps or Parole: Programs like the use of the CBP One app for scheduling asylum appointments or humanitarian parole for specific nationalities (like for Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, and Venezuelans) aim to provide legal pathways for migrants to enter the U.S. under certain conditions. These are not just "come one, come all" policies but structured programs with eligibility criteria:
CBP One App: This app allows migrants to schedule appointments for asylum processing at ports of entry, aiming to manage migration more orderly. Those who enter through this method are in the legal process of seeking asylum.
Humanitarian Parole: This is temporary permission to enter the U.S. for urgent humanitarian reasons or significant public benefit. Parolees are legally allowed to stay for a specified period but are subject to conditions of their parole.
Legal Protections:
Asylum Seekers: Once someone expresses a fear of persecution or applies for asylum, they are generally entitled to a legal process that includes an interview to determine if they have a "credible fear" of persecution. If they do, they can remain in the U.S. to pursue their asylum claim, which involves immigration court proceedings.
Parole: Individuals on parole are not inadmissible in the same straightforward way as those who cross the border illegally. Their legal status depends on the terms of their parole, which can be revoked if conditions are not met, but this involves a process.


Can They Be "Thrown Out"?
Immediate Removal: For those who entered via legal pathways like the CBP One app or parole programs:
Asylum Process: Asylum seekers cannot simply be "thrown out" without due process. They must go through the immigration court system, where a judge decides their case. If they lose their asylum claim, they can be ordered removed, but this is a legal process, not an immediate action.
Parole: Parole can be revoked if the individual violates the terms of their parole. However, this still requires a legal process, not an immediate expulsion.
Expedited Removal: This is a process for quickly removing individuals who are inadmissible under certain conditions but does not apply to those who have entered legally or are in the asylum process unless they clearly do not have a credible fear or have committed certain crimes.
Policy and Legal Challenges: Policies allowing for entry through apps or parole have been met with legal challenges, particularly from states arguing overreach of authority. However, these policies are still within the framework of U.S. immigration law, which includes mechanisms for parole and asylum processing, even if they're controversial or subject to change with administration shifts.


Conclusion:
No to Immediate Expulsion: Those who entered legally through these methods cannot be "thrown out" summarily. They are within the legal immigration system, where due process applies.
Legal Process Required: Any removal would require going through the appropriate legal channels, whether that's revoking parole or adjudicating an asylum claim.
Political and Legal Context: Changes in administration or policy can affect how these cases are handled, but the fundamental legal protections for those in the system remain.


In essence, while the public discourse might simplify or polarize these issues, the legal reality involves complex procedures and rights, ensuring individuals are not just "thrown out" without due process."
 
tenor.gif
 
Birthright Citizenship Isn’t Real
Ryan McMaken - 01/21/2025

[... article ...]


YouTube version:

The Problem with "Birthright Citizenship" | Ryan McMaken
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVFWvL1greA
{Mises Media | 27 January 2025}

In the 1870s and 1880s, and through the 1920s, it's clear that many legislators and judges did not agree that birthright citizenship applied to everyone born in the borders of the US. The modern interpretation is highly debatable.

Additional Reading:

"Why the World Is Giving Up on Birthright Citizenship" by Ryan McMaken: https://mises.org/mises-wire/why-world-giving-birthright-citizenship

“Why Birthright Citizenship Is Rare In Europe” by Ryan McMaken: https://mises.org/mises-wire/why-birthright-citizenship-rare-europe

“Don’t Confuse Immigration with Naturalization“ by Ryan McMaken: https://mises.org/mises-wire/dont-confuse-immigration-naturalization

“The Problem with the Arbitrary Line between Legal and Illegal Immigration“ by Ryan McMaken: https://mises.org/power-market/problem-arbitrary-line-between-legal-and-illegal-immigration

Be sure to follow the Loot and Lobby podcast at https://Mises.org/LL


 
The gastrointestinal distress I am having with what is going on with the roundup is that this is the brand of thing that gets to going sideways rather quickly and with greater ease than one might think.

In principle I have no problem with expelling illegal aliens. They violated immigration statutes and should be expelled, especially in the cases we have seen since Biden took office. Anyone believing that a gigantic fat slob with a cell phone walked 1000+ miles across the Mexican desert to come to the United States for the sake of becoming an American, is an idiot, is peddling under and unpublished agenda, or both. I vote for door #3.

I am endlessly wary of any "let mee zee yor paypuz..." activity in a putatively free land. Visions of soviet and chicom henchmen come immediately to mind. However, we now stand between a rock and hard place, thanks to the handlers who had their hands up Biden's exit vent. I hold precious little doubt that what we have experienced is the work of outside third-parties whose interests by no means coincide with those of the mean American. One need only hearken back to Alinsky so see a very clear pattern of malice intended to bring further ruin to Americans in what I can confidently infer to be part of the effort to eliminate America as such.

The question remains: is the roundup and immediate expulsion of illegal aliens under the currently prevailing conditions an absence of due process. It seems to to naive eyes, but I remain skeptical in large part because thus far Trump has been exceedingly cautious in coloring inside the lines of statutory requirements. Whether he has done so because he is a true patriot or that he wishes to avoid the Democrats and other malefactors he knows to be laying in wait, is irrelevant. He is by no means a stupid man and I believe he learned many very vital lessons from Trump 1.0, and must therefore give at least a nod to the possibility and likelihood that this move has been very keenly thought out.

That all said, my apprehension remains that this is a good thing that stands perilously close to the ragged edges of going way wrong in just a few heartbeats, and the longer it goes on, the greater the risk of it going wrong due to normalization resulting from the development of the callouses that some from long-term acclimation. This is a very real danger given the fact that removing, say, ten million people from America is not going to be achieved any time soon. If even a quarter of that is accomplished cleanly in the coming four years, I will be somewhat surprised and ready to heap my congratulations on those doing the work.

On the more optimistic side, Trump & Co. is doing right by prioritizing the work and going after the felons first.

I've been seeing lots of social media commentary on how ICE (which I would rename back to INS just to put a finger in the eyes of scoundrels) is taking citizens into custody and how they are therefore "fascists" and so on. What they appear to ignore, certainly by not making reference, is any address of the question as to why those people have been arrested, and this assuming that such custody stories are even true. Anyone who knows me at all knows that I despise police almost as much as I do child molesters. Therefore, when I say that anyone interfering with the duties of ICE agents in the discharge of their valid obligations to statutory requirement, they end up in bracelets with just cause. Not every statute is wrong, difficult as that may seem to some.

I say we keep our eyes peeled on the goings-on and hope these guys remain clean. But if they run amok, what then?
 
It's amazing how far you can go through pure cherry picking.

Oh boy, one senator in a one hundred year period didn't agree with birthright citizenship. Guess it's not real!
 
I am endlessly wary of any "let mee zee yor paypuz..." activity in a putatively free land. Visions of soviet and chicom henchmen come immediately to mind.

It's even better than "papers, please."

Currently, states issue birth certificates.

Ask the nativists how exactly that's going to work under their contorted version of the constitution.
 
In reality I don't think it's really even necessary to "ask for papers". We call these people "undocumented" but that's not quite accurate, for most illegals here there is probably a huge paper trail that shows when and where they came in, immigration interviews, known addresses and employers, etc.

It's not like they're just driving a bus around cities looking for brown people to pick up. (although that would be a good idea.)
 
...
I am endlessly wary of any "let mee zee yor paypuz..." activity in a putatively free land.
...

In reality I don't think it's really even necessary to "ask for papers". We call these people "undocumented" but that's not quite accurate, for most illegals here there is probably a huge paper trail that shows when and where they came in, immigration interviews, known addresses and employers, etc.

It's not like they're just driving a bus around cities looking for brown people to pick up. (although that would be a good idea.)

Anecdotal stories this week in California have said that some citrus orchards undergoing harvest have been "raided" by ICE. A valid California Drivers License is sufficient as far as papers, and people with that are immediately sent on their way.

But many of these workers, and the people that hire them, have some forms of visas that make it more complex, and more paperwork may be required. Some of these people have been here for 40 years, but have never applied for citizenship, preferring to remain "guest workers", which allows them to avoid some taxes. This preference to not become citizens leads to more difficult paperwork questions.

My biggest problem with this is the lack of reasonable priority being implemented right now. Violent criminals, ISIS terrorists, CCP operatives, Tren de Aragua gang members, spies, and various non-working grifters are not out in the agricultural fields right now picking and pruning. It is just low hanging fruit for ICE.

I also suspect there may be some vindictive compliance with this effort going on, with motivations from both the right and the left.

On the left, you could have some subversive ICE people doing this to create outrage, and give the MSM media and screeching hysterical leftists something to cite and cry about.

On the right, you could have some gung-ho, zero tolerance ICE people who are more than happy to punish blue states like California, Arizona and New Mexico. And then there is the motivation to just up their deportation numbers the easy way.


All that being said, the effort will continue, and the blame lays squarely on those who have supported the last 4 years of mass, uncontrolled, unvetted immigration.
 
Anecdotal stories this week in California have said that some citrus orchards undergoing harvest have been "raided" by ICE. A valid California Drivers License is sufficient as far as papers, and people with that are immediately sent on their way.

It sounds like the LE agents are going up to unidentified people and treating them with the presumption that they are guilty of violating immigration laws unless they can provide paperwork proving they aren't. Leaving aside the point that a CA drivers license doesn't actually prove that, hopefully we all agree that this is not due process. For anyone of these people the LE agents go up to, it should suffice simply to refuse to answer any questions or provide their names or any papers, and let the LE agents come up with proof of their guilt if they have that, or at least probable cause, with the understanding that refusing to answer questions is not in itself probable cause.
 
It's amazing how far you can go through pure cherry picking.

Oh boy, one senator in a one hundred year period didn't agree with birthright citizenship. Guess it's not real!

Ron Paul opposes birthright citizenship.

It was one of the reasons I supported in 2008.
 
Ron Paul opposes birthright citizenship.

It was one of the reasons I supported in 2008.

I wish he or anyone had made it more well known that the current birthright citizenship policies were unconstitutional.

This recent stuff was the first I've heard about it.
 
For anyone of these people the LE agents go up to, it should suffice simply to refuse to answer any questions or provide their names or any papers, and let the LE agents come up with proof of their guilt if they have that, or at least probable cause, with the understanding that refusing to answer questions is not in itself probable cause.

The current legal standard for investigatory detention and identification is "reasonable articulable suspicion" (RAS), not "probable cause" (PC).

RAS is a much lower bar than PC, and is pretty easy (too easy ?) to meet. PC is the standard for making an arrest (subsequent to the investigatory detention, if any).

Cops will often cite mere "suspiciousness" as RAS ("We got a call ..." or "You're doing something unusual [albeit not evidently criminal] ...") - and courts will often accept this as a valid basis for detention and identification.
 
Last edited:
The current legal standard for investigatory detention and identification is "reasonable articulable suspicion" (RAS), not "probable cause" (PC).

RAS is a much lower bar than PC, and is pretty easy (too easy ?) to meet. PC is the standard for making an arrest (subsequent to the investigatory detention, if any).

Cops will often cite mere "suspiciousness" as RAS ("We got a call ..." or "You're doing something unusual [albeit not evidently criminal] ...") - and courts will often accept this as a valid basis for detention and identification.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Occam's Banana again."
 
The World Is Getting Rid of Birthright Citizenship | Ryan McMaken
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxtctzKoABs
{Mises Media | 29 January 2025}

Europe has no countries that offer “birthright citizenship” anymore. The US and Canada are rare exceptions. Most countries that still have it are countries with net out-migration like Mexico.

Additional Reading:

“Birthright Citizenship Isn’t Real” by Ryan McMaken: https://mises.org/power-market/birthright-citizenship-isnt-real [see this post - OB]

“Why Birthright Citizenship Is Rare In Europe” by Ryan McMaken: https://mises.org/mises-wire/why-birthright-citizenship-rare-europe

“Don’t Confuse Immigration with Naturalization“ by Ryan McMaken: https://mises.org/mises-wire/dont-confuse-immigration-naturalization

“The Problem with the Arbitrary Line between Legal and Illegal Immigration“ by Ryan McMaken: https://mises.org/power-market/problem-arbitrary-line-between-legal-and-illegal-immigration

“There Is No Such Thing as Settled Law“ by Ryan McMaken: https://mises.org/mises-wire/there-no-such-thing-settled-law

Be sure to follow the Loot and Lobby podcast at https://Mises.org/LL

 
On the left, you could have some subversive ICE people doing this to create outrage, and give the MSM media and screeching hysterical leftists something to cite and cry about.

This should be relatively easy to establish. Anyone violating the rights of Americans should be investigated as per the relevant invents, and if found to have done so, they should face felony charges and the facts of the matter should be made very public. Transparency is your friend.

On the right, you could have some gung-ho, zero tolerance ICE people who are more than happy to punish blue states like California, Arizona and New Mexico. And then there is the motivation to just up their deportation numbers the easy way.

I have no problem with punishing those states where they have transgressed. By the same token as above, any "government" agent violating the rights of Americans need to lose their job, all attached benefits, and stand trial. I don't care what political affiliation they may claim, or deny.


All that being said, the effort will continue, and the blame lays squarely on those who have supported the last 4 years of mass, uncontrolled, unvetted immigration.

Those people need to go, I agree.
 
Back
Top