Torture?

[Libertas Aut Mortis]

Hello friends,

I have to admit, I'm pretty new to the Liberty Movement. I've done about 2 years of pretty extensive reading, thinking, writing, and listening to get where I am today.

There is one position, which was brought up in the debate, that I didn't necessarily understand from the Liberty perspective. I'm hoping you can help me out.

Torture. I fully understand the law of reciprocity, and I understand why we shouldn't torture the uniformed members of foreign states (or private citizens ect). I also understand the issue from a humanist/moral/ethical perspective.

But here is the question. Why shouldn't we use torture to interrogate those non-state combatants, who do not follow the law of reciprocity, who do not share our typical moral code? If we are to put Americans in harms way, why not allow those Americans any means necessary to defend themselves from current and future attack? If an terrorist is captured, why shouldn't they be subject to any means possible? Why shouldn't we keep these terrorists in a military prison outside of the United States?

I get it, non-interventionist policy would make this issue a non issue. But if a closed mouthed terrorist is standing in the way of saving an American life, I really don't care about that terrorists Life, Liberty, or the pursuit of Happiness.

Propaganda....maybe, but every time we shoot one of them it's a propaganda situation also. They will find something regardless.

I'm a recovering Neo-Con...and this is one of the last planks in which I typically agree with them on. If you could talk me out of it, I would be grateful.

I'm also pro-death penalty...if you can find away to connect those dots.

Thanks!

 

[phill4paul]

Friedrich Nietzsche is quoted as saying:

“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”

There are moral boundaries, many which have already been broken when one considers the "Just War" theory, which should not be broken lest we become the monster.

As far as the death penalty goes I lean towards Blackstone's dictum that it is "Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer." Hundreds of innocents have been freed after being condemned to die. Thousands more that were innocent have been murdered by the state.

 

[Suzanimal]

Hello friends,

I have to admit, I'm pretty new to the Liberty Movement. I've done about 2 years of pretty extensive reading, thinking, writing, and listening to get where I am today.

There is one position, which was brought up in the debate, that I didn't necessarily understand from the Liberty perspective. I'm hoping you can help me out.

Torture. I fully understand the law of reciprocity, and I understand why we shouldn't torture the uniformed members of foreign states (or private citizens ect). I also understand the issue from a humanist/moral/ethical perspective.

But here is the question. Why shouldn't we use torture to interrogate those non-state combatants, who do not follow the law of reciprocity, who do not share our typical moral code? If we are to put Americans in harms way, why not allow those Americans any means necessary to defend themselves from current and future attack? If an terrorist is captured, why shouldn't they be subject to any means possible? Why shouldn't we keep these terrorists in a military prison outside of the United States?

I get it, non-interventionist policy would make this issue a non issue. But if a closed mouthed terrorist is standing in the way of saving an American life, I really don't care about that terrorists Life, Liberty, or the pursuit of Happiness.

Propaganda....maybe, but every time we shoot one of them it's a propaganda situation also. They will find something regardless.

I'm a recovering Neo-Con...and this is one of the last planks in which I typically agree with them on. If you could talk me out of it, I would be grateful.

I'm also pro-death penalty...if you can find away to connect those dots.

Thanks!

Because it's wrong. Not only is torture is wrong, it's been proven ineffective, as well. And, btw, I know at least one "terrorist" at Gitmo was a case of mistaken identity. They've known they had the wrong guy for awhile, btw.

Al-Shamiri has been held as an enemy combatant without charge at Guantánamo since 2002. He is one of 107 prisoners at the controversial base, 48 of whom have been cleared for release. It is not certain when he will learn if he is to become number 49.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ity-guantanamo-bay-mustafa-al-aziz-al-shamiri

Senate Report Finds CIA Interrogation Tactics Were Ineffective

Among the techniques described were waterboarding so severe it produced convulsions, sleep deprivation so prolonged it induced hallucinations, the slamming of detainees into walls, the denial of medical care and unnecessary rectal feeding.

One prisoner, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged architect of the Sept. 11 attacks, was waterboarded 183 times in what was described as "a series of near-drownings."

"It is my personal conclusion that, under any common meaning of the term, CIA detainees were tortured," Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California, chairwoman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, said in an introduction to the report.

Read the Senate Intelligence Committee report (PDF)

On the Senate floor, she acknowledged concerns that releasing the report could provoke blowback overseas and endanger U.S. military and diplomatic installations. And she stressed that she was not condemning the CIA as a whole.

But she said: "History will judge us by our commitment to a just society governed by law and the willingness to face an ugly truth and say: Never again."

Gruesome details
The report examined the CIA's secret overseas detention of at least 119 people during the administration of President George W. Bush. It criticized the CIA for "inadequate and deeply flawed" management of the interrogation program, including improper screening and poor training of interrogators.

According to a summary provided to reporters, the most aggressive techniques were used "in combination and nonstop," including keeping detainees awake for as long as 180 hours, standing or in stress positions.

In just one example, the report quoted internal CIA documents describing the prolonged interrogation of one detainee, Abu Zubaydah, as so intense that several members of the CIA's own team were affected "to the point of tears and choking up."

Side by side, the report showed congressional testimony by Michael Hayden, the former CIA director, in which he denied that CIA personnel expressed any reservations about interrogation techniques.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ci...nterrogation-tactics-were-ineffective-n264621

Welcome to the forums.

 

[luctor-et-emergo]

“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”

THIS! Also applies to the death penalty.

Let me just add to that that a regime like North-Korea isn't cruel because they are evil and want to be cruel. They are cruel because that's the most efficient way to run a system like that. Never ever put efficiency over morality. Same with phone-records etc.

 

[Libertas Aut Mortis]

I agree with both of those sentiments, and they both easily gel with my philosophy...however; the question is now....how to you defeat a monster without becoming a monster? How is it possible to balance the worth of the life of an enemy and the worth of a fellow Americans life? War can surely be justly entered into...but is it possible for it to be justly carried out?

Death Penalty, if you follow that line of thought, why put anyone in prison? Isn't it better to allow every criminal free than risk one false imprisonment? Perhaps it would be better to be more selective in our guilty verdicts. A reform of the judicial system. Simplified code of laws. Few laws but vigorously enforced. The Rule of Law, not quaking in fear of the legitimacy of Justice.

 

[LukeR]

I think torture is wrong in every single circumstance. I'd never support a candidate who is in favor of torture.

 

[Danke]

I agree with both of those sentiments, and they both easily gel with my philosophy...however; the question is now....how to you defeat a monster without becoming a monster? How is it possible to balance the worth of the life of an enemy and the worth of a fellow Americans life? War can surely be justly entered into...but is it possible for it to be justly carried out?

Death Penalty, if you follow that line of thought, why put anyone in prison? Isn't it better to allow every criminal free than risk one false imprisonment? Perhaps it would be better to be more selective in our guilty verdicts. A reform of the judicial system. Simplified code of laws. Few laws but vigorously enforced. The Rule of Law, not quaking in fear of the legitimacy of Justice.

Unlike prison, death can not be undone.

 

[Libertas Aut Mortis]

Luctor, I hadn't thought of it like that before.

It would seem true that my original thoughts on this would put efficiency over morality.

Now, I typically would agree, as noted, when confronting other state actors. But terrorism truly is more of an elusive monster.

Perhaps it is simply ignorance, but I have extremely difficult time viewing these combatants as persons who can be dealt with on the battlefield with anything but ruthless efficiency. I would much rather us not be there, but if we must....what exactly is immoral about causing discomfort to your enemy to possibly save the lives of your friend?

We are perhaps the first wave of human beings in the history of the world who found the death penalty to be immoral. What do we base our opposition on? How is it not immoral to allow murderers ect to keep their lives?

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.....luck would have it, justice is blind. It is not the duty of government to be compassionate to criminals. It is their job to preserve the social contract.

 

[LukeR]

Unlike prison, death can not be undone.

Tell that to people who have spent 30+ years in prison wrongfully convicted.

 

[Libertas Aut Mortis]

Unlike prison, death can not be undone.

Deprivation of Liberty cannot be undone either. Once time is gone, it's gone. To unjustly imprison you for 5 years is to take 5 years of both life and liberty.

That, in principle, is just as terrible as unjust death penalty. No?


I understand your point, but are not some crimes worthy of death?

 

[Danke]

Tell that to people who have spent 30+ years in prison wrongfully convicted.

They were alive and sometime get nice awards.

 

[LukeR]

They were alive and sometime get nice awards.

A couple million to blow on hookers and coke can't make up for 30 years behind bars. Or can it...?

 

[staerker]

I understand your point, but are not some crimes worthy of death?

Some. But the real question is: do you trust a both corrupt and negligent government to have a say in the matter?

 

[TheNewYorker]

I will always be under the impression that killing women and children with drone strikes is far worse than dumping some water on someone while they are strapped to a board.

 

[Kotin]

I think torture is wrong in every single circumstance. I'd never support a candidate who is in favor of torture.

Just because Cruz defined water boarding as not being torture doesn't make it true. It is torture plain and simple..

So have fun with your cognitive dissonance

 

[Kotin]

I will always be under the impression that killing women and children with drone strikes is far worse than dumping some water on someone while they are strapped to a board.

Agreed and Cruz supports the drone program 100%

 

[TheNewYorker]

Just because Cruz defined water boarding as not being torture doesn't make it true. It is torture plain and simple..

So have fun with your cognitive dissonance

It is.

But I think it pales in comparison to real torture. My grandfather was subject to the NVA pulling out his fingernails and toenails with pliers. Burning him with hot poker on his genitals. Etc. I think that's a lot worse than water being poured on you.

I think drone strikes, and carpet bombing, which kill hundreds of innocent women and children, are also worse than waterboarding. But somehow those are "legal" and waterboarding isn't.

I would be happy if ALL of the above was illegal and discontinued.

 

[Libertas Aut Mortis]

It is.

But I think it pales in comparison to real torture. My grandfather was subject to the NVA pulling out his fingernails and toenails with pliers. Burning him with hot poker on his genitals. Etc. I think that's a lot worse than water being poured on you.

I think drone strikes, and carpet bombing, which kill hundreds of innocent women and children, are also worse than waterboarding. But somehow those are "legal" and waterboarding isn't.

I would be happy if ALL of the above was illegal and discontinued.

I can pretty much empathize with and agree with this comment.

 

[VIDEODROME]

But if a closed mouthed terrorist is standing in the way of saving an American life, I really don't care about that terrorists Life, Liberty, or the pursuit of Happiness.

I've heard this scenario pitched by different people, but this feels like a hypothetical occurrence that only really comes up in action movies. Let's suppose a Jack Bauer 24 type moment really does happen where a terrorist is nabbed that knows where a bomb is in a public place and how to disarm it.

At that moment, the person is just a terrorist suspect. An innocent person could be beaten, maimed, or even killed for information they don't have. Suppose the they are a terrorist, they could either remain silent or start telling lies until the clock runs out.

In general, I'm skeptical that good intel can be required this way and I'm not sure the torturers even believe it does. I think it's just a form of permitted sadism. The scary part is these people who learn to torture will someday have to come back into our society after we encouraged them to do who knows what to people. It's hard to know how that affects people psychologically. They might be more suicidal or they won't think twice about stabbing someone.

 

[LukeR]

Agreed and Cruz supports the drone program 100%

Rand supports using drones as well.

[h=1]Rand Paul defends Obama on drones[/h]

http://www.businessinsider.com/rand-paul-defends-obama-on-drones-2015-4