Teenager killed by neighborhood watch captain

Where is the evidence Zimmerman was being harmed? Are you serious? There is only one eyewitness, and the center of his account is that Trayvon had pinned Zimmerman down and was punching him. The eyewitness yelled for Trayvon to stop beating him, and Trayvon didn't stop. So the witness called 911.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4



Zimmerman was the one screaming for help in the background of the 911 call. Within a day of the incident, police had played the 911 tape for Trayvon's father, and Trayvon's father confirmed the screaming was NOT his son's voice. All this is in the reports.

But politically-useful narrative overrules fact, so all the news discussions involve plenty of things EXCEPT the ONE eyewitness we have.
Your above statement about Trayvon's father is contradicted by the CNN story you linked to:

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/...ily-cell-phone-benjamin-crump/4?_s=PM:JUSTICE

I think you do a good job of really cross examining the narrative and trying to figure out the details of the fight... but remember that Trayvon felt that he was being followed so even if he did start the physical altercation, he was acting in self defense. Zimmerman was also instructed not to follow Trayvon, but he ignored the instructions.

Please have mercy on Trayvon and his family, and try to see that Trayvon is dead because George Zimmerman followed Trayvon against instruction and provoked Trayvon to escalate the situation and try to defend himself.
 
Do you see how hard you're straining to make this case not be what the physical evidence and eyewitness say it is?

Among other reasons they could have resigned: political threats from allies who don't want to be allied with their tarnished name any more, threats from angry protestors, a sense of 'this circus ain't what I signed up for,' or actual misconduct they don't want found out, or they are worried about civil liability or other personal lawsuit problems, scary feds from federal commissions and 3-letter agencies approaching them with demands and threats and such.

It really could be anything.



The main (or rather, only) witness that exists and that I've been quoting gave his statement and it was published in the press the day after the shooting, long before this turned into a national story or anything more than a local matter.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

That's the story: "Published 27 Feb 2012."

The story is updated, so there is no real telling what was in the original article, but anyways, this article from the LA Times said Zimmerman reported the boy running and he was CHASING him, which I can see self-defense for the 17 year old and Zimmerman was told NOT to chase the boy!


 
I followed that whole story pretty closely and out on the East Coast there was hardly any news of it at all.
What do you make of the national outcry regarding the Trayvon Martin case? Personally I think people all across America are getting more vocal... not just Ron Paul supporters! I think that part of it is good. The national press coverage, Im more mixed on.

In general, I think its also healthy that a racial justice case can get so much coverage. However, many who bring it up may be motivated more by their anti-gun views and belief in big central government than a serious concern for black life.
 
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Your above statement about Trayvon's father is contradicted by the CNN story you linked to:

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/j...?_s=PM:JUSTICE

I think you do a good job of really cross examining the narrative and trying to figure out the details of the fight... but remember that Trayvon felt that he was being followed so even if he did start the physical altercation, he was acting in self defense. Zimmerman was also instructed not to follow Trayvon, but he ignored the instructions.

Please have mercy on Trayvon and his family, and try to see that Trayvon is dead because George Zimmerman followed Trayvon against instruction and provoked Trayvon to escalate the situation and try to defend himself.

I think Zimmerman is a moron who made a number of stupid decisions. Even if he's not a moron in general, which he appears to be, he still made a number of stupid decisions.

If he felt the guy was a threat or a menace, why confront him? Confronting him, by its nature, implies that you're not terribly scared of him. Rationally, you would continue to observe, maintain an exit strategy, and wait for cops.

I think you do a good job of really cross examining the narrative and trying to figure out the details of the fight... but remember that Trayvon felt that he was being followed so even if he did start the physical altercation, he was acting in self defense. Zimmerman was also instructed not to follow Trayvon, but he ignored the instructions.

Thank you for being even-handed and reasonable.

I disagree with the middle sentence. If Trayvon felt wary of Zimmerman, as I'm sure he did, then I certainly understand him not being kind or cooperative with Zimmerman. And that's probably the right thing for him to do.

But the problem is that one of them tipped the balance to make it physical. One of them began the escalation from confronting to fighting. We will never know who that was. There is no way to know. If we could know that Zimmerman began the physical aspect either through a thrown punch or simple 'fighting words,' then he should fry. If not, or if we can never know, then he should remain free. We can never know. Therefore, he should stay free. All we do know is that we do have an eyewitness who painted a picture, in a statement on the day of the killing, that Zimmerman was in a very rough spot and getting beaten.

I'm particularly perturbed at the white-washing done on Trayvon. Everybody knows Zimmerman's sketchiness. It's widely reported, from his previous arrest(s), to his love of calling 911, to his wannabe-cop stuff. Yet, Trayvon is presented as this baby-faced teeny-bopper who only wanted skittles and tea. Few know that he was only in that neighborhood because he had been suspended from school. We still don't know what for. He wasn't 12, like the media pictures show - he was a 17 year old, 6-foot football player.

And the CNN report doesn't conflict with what I said. Trayvon's father did say that the voice was not his son's. But that was right after the incident, and in the immediate report. Now, of course, he says it was his son, because he has realized how disadvantageous to his case that statement was. Trayvon's father changed his story from the first police report to what he's saying now.

The story is updated, so there is no real telling what was in the original article, but anyways, this article from the LA Times said Zimmerman reported the boy running and he was CHASING him, which I can see self-defense for the 17 year old and Zimmerman was told NOT to chase the boy!

Have you listened to the entire 911 call from beginning to end? Get back to me when you have. Zimmerman stopped chasing the man (man, not boy). Zimmerman's story is that after Zimmerman ceased his trailing Trayvon, then Trayvon came back at him. That probably sounds like a load of crock to you. But that's probably because you haven't listened to the whole call from beginning to end.
 
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I think Zimmerman is a moron who made a number of stupid decisions. Even if he's not a moron in general, which he appears to be, he still made a number of stupid decisions.

If he felt the guy was a threat or a menace, why confront him? Confronting him, by its nature, implies that you're not terribly scared of him. Rationally, you would continue to observe, maintain an exit strategy, and wait for cops.



Thank you for being even-handed and reasonable.

I disagree with the middle sentence. If Trayvon felt wary of Zimmerman, as I'm sure he did, then I certainly understand him not being kind or cooperative with Zimmerman. And that's probably the right thing for him to do.

But the problem is that one of them tipped the balance to make it physical. One of them began the escalation from confronting to fighting. We will never know who that was. There is no way to know. If we could know that Zimmerman began the physical aspect either through a thrown punch or simple 'fighting words,' then he should fry. If not, or if we can never know, then he should remain free. We can never know. Therefore, he should stay free. All we do know is that we do have an eyewitness who painted a picture, in a statement on the day of the killing, that Zimmerman was in a very rough spot and getting beaten.

I'm particularly perturbed at the white-washing done on Trayvon. Everybody knows Zimmerman's sketchiness. It's widely reported, from his previous arrest(s), to his love of calling 911, to his wannabe-cop stuff. Yet, Trayvon is presented as this baby-faced teeny-bopper who only wanted skittles and tea. Few know that he was only in that neighborhood because he had been suspended from school. We still don't know what for. He wasn't 12, like the media pictures show - he was a 17 year old, 6-foot football player.

And the CNN report doesn't conflict with what I said. Trayvon's father did say that the voice was not his son's. But that was right after the incident, and in the immediate report. Now, of course, he says it was his son, because he has realized how disadvantageous to his case that statement was. Trayvon's father changed his story from the first police report to what he's saying now.



Have you listened to the entire 911 call from beginning to end? Get back to me when you have. Zimmerman stopped chasing the man (man, not boy). Zimmerman's story is that after Zimmerman ceased his trailing Trayvon, then Trayvon came back at him. That probably sounds like a load of crock to you. But that's probably because you haven't listened to the whole call from beginning to end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCO1Av5KarI&feature=related

The guy yelling sounded like Trayvon, I doubt Zimmerman has voice like that as a 28 year old. I don't know what you heard, but Trayvon was screaming, and I doubt zimmerman would scream if he was holding a gun all along.
 
The guy yelling sounded like Trayvon, I doubt Zimmerman has voice like that as a 28 year old. I don't know what you heard, but Trayvon was screaming, and I doubt zimmerman would scream if he was holding a gun all along.

Note that even if you are right, the case against Zimmerman is not proven, nor even budged much that direction.

Secondly, we have a witness who gave a statement immediately following the incident, and he has told us what he saw and what he heard while he was seeing it.

So, naturally, we would disregard the actual witness in favor of our figuring about the nature of a recorded scream.
 
Note that even if you are right, the case against Zimmerman is not proven, nor even budged much that direction.

Secondly, we have a witness who gave a statement immediately following the incident, and he has told us what he saw and what he heard while he was seeing it.

So, naturally, we would disregard the actual witness in favor of our figuring about the nature of a recorded scream.

Even if the self defense thing is not proven, Zimmerman should still be arrested and charged 2nd degree murder or manslaughter, not just let free to take another victim! There should be justice done for everyone!
 
Even if the self defense thing is not proven, Zimmerman should still be arrested and charged 2nd degree murder or manslaughter, not just let free to take another victim! There should be justice done for everyone!

Wait, what?

You want to throw away an eyewitness because you think you can divine the identity of a person behind a recorded scream, between two people you haven't met. I'm not sure if I should keep engaging this line of thought.
 
Wait, what?

You want to throw away an eyewitness because you think you can divine the identity of a person behind a recorded scream, between two people you haven't met. I'm not sure if I should keep engaging this line of thought.

I said charged, not "sentenced", under your logic of how people should go free means that anyone can murder someone else and make it look like self-defense which is ridiculous if they are not charged and tried under their peers of jury.
 
Wait, what?

You want to throw away an eyewitness because you think you can divine the identity of a person behind a recorded scream, between two people you haven't met. I'm not sure if I should keep engaging this line of thought.

I also don't like the "we may never know" mentality when the police did not investigate one bit. This shows me that you do not really care.
 
I also don't like the "we may never know" mentality when the police did not investigate one bit. This shows me that you do not really care

What should they have done to investigate more?
 
What should they have done to investigate more?

The police should have brought inspectors and the local attorney should have looked into the case further and that does not matter now, since the state and the feds are sending investigators into this so "mysterious" case.
 
I don't see how it's self defense when the teen wasn't armed.

All of the evidence indicates that the 'kid' (ignore the 5 -6 year out of date MSM pics-the youg male was over 6 foot and 170 pounds- a football player) started the altercation had the watch guy down & was beating him viciously. The shoot was righteous.



Nothing to see here beyond the latest attempt by the MSM and the political left to disarm the Citizens. T. Martin is not the martyred saint the left is making him out to be.
 
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He's a sick disgusting pig because he commented on a teenager that got shot in cold blood? What exactly is he supposed to say?

Did you not read my post, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Obama made a very solemn comment that this young man looked like the "son he never had", or something to that effect. It is pretty clear that this comment was meant to express a personal connection to this sad, terrible situation. All well fine and good... if it weren't for the fact that Barack Obama is personally responsible for the MURDER of untold numbers of little brown boys and girls in numerous countries around the world.

What exactly is he supposed to say? Are you fucking kidding me?

HE IS SUPPOSED TO GET DOWN ON HIS GOD DAMNED KNEES AND BEG FOR FORGIVENESS.

...not try to make some political hay out of tragedy which - surprisingly - he had no personal hand in.
 
I apologize for the vulgar language in my last post. It is not my typical practice... some things drive me to a rage, and I think in this instance, I'll leave the language in place, to illustrate my contempt.
 
All of the evidence indicates that the 'kid' (ignore the 5 -6 year out of date MSM pics-the youg male was over 6 foot and 170 pounds- a football player) started the altercation had the watch guy down & was beating him viciously. The shoot was righteous.



Nothing to see here beyond the latest attempt by the MSM and the political left to disarm the Citizens. T. Martin is not the martyred saint the left is making him out to be.

It started with the Neighborhood Watch guy getting brutally beaten? So much so that he had a bloody nose and "some blood on the back of his scalp" and that is it? And why was he in a position to get beaten up? And... here's the kicker... if you were walking around at night through a neighborhood, and some dude was slowly following you in his car, then got out and confronted you, what precisely would you do? Why is the story that Zimmerman suddenly decided to wait for the police, but place himself in close proximity to what he seemed to think was a drug-crazed person up to no good, turning his back onto such a danger?

Do you understand how unlikely that sounds?

The police did not interview all of the witnesses (yes, someone who was speaking on the phone to the teen right before they were killed is a witness), did not run a toxicology report, and used the "Stand Your Ground" law to decide then and there that it was self-defense, precluding a jury trial.

You're okay with that? The police get to decide the merits of the case right there, and if they put their heads together and say it is self-defense, that whole "fair and speedy" trial is unnecessary?

I'm sure glad you're not around here. I go walking at night in a hoodie, and am not much smaller than this behemoth among men. Sometimes I even have one of those property line construction stakes with me.
 
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All of the evidence indicates that the 'kid' (ignore the 5 -6 year out of date MSM pics-the youg male was over 6 foot and 170 pounds- a football player) started the altercation had the watch guy down & was beating him viciously. The shoot was righteous.

That would never have happened if the Buttinski had not followed the kid down the street and then got out of his vehicle (after being told NOT to by the 911 dispatch)
And confronted him. The watch Captain started the fight.

I am a firm believer in self defense (this was not self defense) and I believe in neighborhood watches.
But this guy was wrong, from start to finish.
 
Once again, what I think is getting lost here is the "Stand your Ground" law.

It allows Florida residents to use deadly force rather than retreat if they feel threatened, even if they are not at home.

That part is great. Previously, you were supposed to retreat if at all possible. You could get in trouble with the law for not doing so, even if in the olden days you would have been called a hero.

Stand Your Ground is a shield against prosecution only when the person who uses deadly force "reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony." If the cops doubted that Zimmerman was reasonable in believing that Martin was threatening him with death or great harm—or if they doubted his story altogether—then of course they could have arrested him.
Hmm. Gray area. Obviously Zimmerman felt he was in danger there at the end, so this is valid, but why was he in that situation at all?

there are at least four reasons to doubt what Zimmerman has to say. First, there is the tape of his own 911 call, on which he is agitated by Martin merely because the 17-year-old was walking through the gated community where Zimmerman lives, and then grumbles, "These assholes. They always get away." Second, this wasn’t Zimmerman’s first phone call like this. He has placed other 911 calls, 46 over 10 years, in which he reported black people for hanging out and children for playing in the street. Third, and most important, is the account of Martin’s girlfriend, who says he was talking to her on his cellphone in the moments before he died. She says Martin told her, "I think this dude is following me," thought he’d lost Zimmerman, and then said, "He is right behind me again. I'm not going to run, I'm going to walk fast." The girlfriend claims she next heard another voice say, “What are you doing around here?” to which Martin answered, “Why are you following me?" She then heard Martin get pushed and sounds as if his phone was hitting the ground.

Last, there’s just the sheer unlikelihood of a teenager afraid he was being followed, and trying to walk away fast, suddenly turning and pouncing on a much bigger man. (Zimmerman weighed 100 pounds more than Martin.)
So much for that "this kid was HUGE!" notion.

For all the cries of "he was acting in self-defense" in this thread, it's interesting that it's not being argued with equal volume that the teen, being followed at night and approached by someone demanding to know his business, was not acting in self-defense.
Zimmerman's attorney said his client was injured on the night of the killing.

"I believe that his nose was broken; he sustained injury to his nose and on the back of his head he sustained a cut that was serious enough, it probably should have had stitches," he said.

Sonner said the injuries "were from Trayvon Martin, I assume."

For being such a one-sided scuffle, with the brutish 170-pound football player tackling him, this guy got a broken nose and a cut that might have merited stitches, but didn't get them. The teen, however, is dead, and the best people can do is "I assume those injuries were caused by the teen and prompted Zimmerman to fire."

It's astounding how many defenders this guy, and this ridiculous aspect of the law, have.
 
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