Teenager killed by neighborhood watch captain

[cstarace]

I'll ignore the race-baiting.

Do you know who threw the first punch? Do you know if either ever tried to walk away at any point? Who engaged in the first "fighting words" (note: rudeness and demanding to know why Trayvon is there is not necessarily 'fighting words')?

You don't know the answers to any of those.

Zimmerman did weigh maybe 100 lbs more than Trayvon. So you have a 5'9, morbidly obese waddler against a 6'1 or so high school football player who is 17. Older, fatter, shorter guy with a BMI of nearly 40 against a high school athlete. That's not a fair fight, and it's no wonder that Trayvon came out on top (literally, as in, on top of him and still swinging).

You probably shouldn't ignore the race-baiting, since Zimmerman called Trayvon a "fucking coon" on the 911 call. To ignore this fact would be incredibly irrational.

Here's what we know for sure:

• Zimmerman is a racist.
• Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator and chased after Trayvon even after he was instructed not to.
• Zimmerman had appointed himself as the Neighborhood Watch Vigilante and called 911 fourty-six times, prompting his neighbors to complain about him.
• You cite one eyewitness that backs up Zimmerman; there are numerous others who dispute this and have said it was Trayvon who was yelling for help, not Zimmerman.
• Trayvon was completely unarmed.

Where's your case?

 

[Anti Federalist]

Great question. As I see it, the mass protests surrounding the issue are a great example of how liberty and the God given rights of free expression, petitioning the government, and peaceable assembly have allowed concerned people to apply pressure to government. Perhaps Dr. Paul can comment on how as President, he would defend these rights and would not allow those who organize and protest to be labelled terrorist and subject to assassination. He could also point out that the mainstream policies of Republicans and Democrats are leading to an environment where a racist President could do such things as is done in so many other countries with US support.

Salvo for the new member.

+rep

 

[BamaAla]

How do you claim self defense when you get out of your car and then chase down an unarmed man while you are packing heat?

This story stinks to the core.

The possible answers to this question are too many to count.

I'll stick beside my original reluctance to call for the guy's head. Police are quick to arrest in situations like this; if you follow any gun forums, you'll see people getting arrested often after a clean shoot (even if they are never charged.) District attorneys love to prosecute when there is even a marginal chance of victory in the form of a conviction or plea. Neither of those things happened here which leads me to believe that there may be some heavy mitigating circumstances.

With that said, I'm sure the guy will be hanged guilty or not now.

 

[GreenBulldog]

A person I talked to about government being too big and should follow the constitution used this story to justify government.

I guess some people want a police state...or think that government will be benevolent protector.

 

[smhbbag]

You probably shouldn't ignore the race-baiting, since Zimmerman called Trayvon a "fucking coon" on the 911 call. To ignore this fact would be incredibly irrational.

Here's what we know for sure:
Zimmerman is a racist.
Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator and chased after Trayvon even after he was instructed not to.
Zimmerman had appointed himself as the Neighborhood Watch Vigilante and called 911 fourty-six times, prompting his neighbors to complain about him.
You cite one eyewitness that backs up Zimmerman; there are numerous others who dispute this and have said it was Trayvon who was yelling for help, not Zimmerman.
Trayvon was completely unarmed.

Where's your case?

Zimmerman did not say coons. He said punks. There is a hard K sound right before the s. And it absolutely blows my mind the distortions that people's minds will make to conform events to their preconceived notions.

Trayvon was NOT unarmed. He had two arms. And he was swinging them both wildly on the head of a man he had pinned down. That's a lethal threat, and you're a fool if you wouldn't shoot in that situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZERsNpe9Hc The guy who made the video thinks he said it, but his own audio shows no such thing.

 

[rag-time4]

Salvo for the new member.

+rep

If Dr. Paul wanted to be really provactive, he can talk about the Federal governments persecution of the Black Panther Party and the assassination of Black Panther members. He could state that he would defend the God given rights of all to bear arms and monitor police, and practice self defense against police brutality.

 

[cstarace]

Zimmerman did not say coons. He said punks. There is a hard K sound right before the s. And it absolutely blows my mind the distortions that people's minds will make to conform events to their preconceived notions.

You're out of your mind if you think that sounds anything even remotely close to "punks". It is not even debatable.

SKIP TO 2:40

Trayvon was NOT unarmed. He had two arms. And he was swinging them both wildly on the head of a man he had pinned down. That's a lethal threat, and you're a fool if you wouldn't shoot in that situation.

According to one witness who has been contradicted by numerous other witnesses. The only other person to back up that story was the responding police officer who didn't find the situation dire enough to warrant any sort of questioning towards Zimmerman. Sounds legit!

 

[Voluntary Man]

The possible answers to this question are too many to count.

I'll stick beside my original reluctance to call for the guy's head. Police are quick to arrest in situations like this; if you follow any gun forums, you'll see people getting arrested often after a clean shoot (even if they are never charged.) District attorneys love to prosecute when there is even a marginal chance of victory in the form of a conviction or plea. Neither of those things happened here which leads me to believe that there may be some heavy mitigating circumstances.

With that said, I'm sure the guy will be hanged guilty or not now.

It's looking more and more certain. I usually give "civilians" the benefit of the doubt, in such cases -- whereas I hold police to a higher standard of accountability, especially since, as a group (oh no! was that collectivist?), they are next to never prosecuted for even the most egregious abuses.

That said, I was one of the last holdouts during the OJ arrest and trial. I refused to render an opinion on the case, until after it was concluded. As a rule, once a "case" has become as racially polarized as this one is becoming, I just walk away.

This is me walking away....

 

[smhbbag]

According to one witness who has been contradicted by numerous other witnesses. The only other person to back up that story was the responding police officer who didn't find the situation dire enough to warrant any sort of questioning towards Zimmerman. Sounds legit!

Who are the other witnesses? Name names. Link links. Be specific.

There is NOBODY else but the guy I quoted who actually saw what happened. There are lots of people who heard shots or had other input, but only ONE person has said he saw the melee.

I believe the only witness we have who is not the shooter. And for that, I am reviled.

 

[Vanilluxe]

Zimmerman did not say coons. He said punks. There is a hard K sound right before the s. And it absolutely blows my mind the distortions that people's minds will make to conform events to their preconceived notions.

Trayvon was NOT unarmed. He had two arms. And he was swinging them both wildly on the head of a man he had pinned down. That's a lethal threat, and you're a fool if you wouldn't shoot in that situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZERsNpe9Hc The guy who made the video thinks he said it, but his own audio shows no such thing.

You only gave one witness against a dozen others whose facts supports Martin. I totally believe that Zimmerman lied about self-defense, and i would ask you, if Trayvon shot Zimmerman and had one witness calling it self-defense, would you change your answer? Besides, Zimmerman was ordered not to follow Trayvon and how can he call 911 when he is pinned down? I don't like giving neg rep, but this is getting ridiculous with all the evidence up front.

 

[Vanilluxe]

Who are the other witnesses? Name names. Link links. Be specific.

There is NOBODY else but the guy I quoted who actually saw what happened. There are lots of people who heard shots or had other input, but only ONE person has said he saw the melee.

I believe the only witness we have who is not the shooter. And for that, I am reviled.

The girlfriend was on the phone will Trayvon and how can he be fighting, if he is on the phone then being shot?

 

[BamaAla]

It's looking more and more certain. I usually give "civilians" the benefit of the doubt, in such cases -- whereas I hold police to a higher standard of accountability, especially since, as a group (oh no! was that collectivist?), they are next to never prosecuted for even the most egregious abuses.

That said, I was one of the last holdouts during the OJ arrest and trial. I refused to render an opinion on the case, until after it was concluded. As a rule, once a "case" has become as racially polarized as this one is becoming, I just walk away.

This is me walking away....

Probably a very wise policy. With cases like this, OJ, Jena 6, etc., it is impossible to keep on target; I think I'll probably follow your lead on out of this one.

 

[smhbbag]

You only gave one witness against a dozen others whose facts supports Martin. I totally believe that Zimmerman lied about self-defense, and i would ask you, if Trayvon shot Zimmerman and had one witness calling it self-defense, would you change your answer? Besides, Zimmerman was ordered not to follow Trayvon and how can he call 911 when he is pinned down? I don't like giving neg rep, but this is getting ridiculous with all the evidence up front.

Bring on the negative reputation.

You have obviously not read anything on this at all. The girl was on the phone with Trayvon up until he and Zimmerman got it on. Trayvon's earpiece fell out and the line went dead. http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/...amily-cell-phone-benjamin-crump?_s=PM:JUSTICE

The fact that he was on an earpiece when the confrontation started doesn't mean anything about who started the fight, who threw the first punch, etc. The girlfriend didn't see anything. She also didn't hear anything, except exactly what we'd expect - Zimmerman demanding to know why Trayvon was there, what he was up to, etc. She didn't hear anything substantial, or see anything at all. And her word is obviously less reliable than a witness that is unrelated to either shooter or victim.

Secondly, I never said Zimmerman called 911 while he was pinned down. The witness in the story I linked said that he, the witness, called 911 after he saw and heard Zimmerman getting punched and yelling for help.

Again I say - I believe the testimony of the only witness to the act. And that makes me nuts to y'all.

 

[Vanilluxe]

Bring on the negative reputation.

You have obviously not read anything on this at all. The girl was on the phone with Trayvon up until he and Zimmerman got it on. Trayvon's earpiece fell out and the line went dead. http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/...amily-cell-phone-benjamin-crump?_s=PM:JUSTICE

The fact that he was on an earpiece when the confrontation started doesn't mean anything about who started the fight, who threw the first punch, etc.

Secondly, I never said Zimmerman called 911 while he was pinned down. The witness in the story I linked said that he, the witness, called 911 after he saw and heard Zimmerman getting punched and yelling for help.

Is the witness reliable? There was complaints of black bias before Zimmerman was shot and why did the police chief all of the sudden resigned? Does he have anything to hide?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/before-unarmed-black-teen-was-shot-fla-citys-blacks-complained-of-bias-in-police-department/2012/03/23/gIQAs5hoWS_story.html?tid=pm_national_pop

 

[Anti Federalist]

It's looking more and more certain. I usually give "civilians" the benefit of the doubt, in such cases -- whereas I hold police to a higher standard of accountability, especially since, as a group (oh no! was that collectivist?), they are next to never prosecuted for even the most egregious abuses.

That said, I was one of the last holdouts during the OJ arrest and trial. I refused to render an opinion on the case, until after it was concluded. As a rule, once a "case" has become as racially polarized as this one is becoming, I just walk away.

This is me walking away....

I don't recall this level of uproar when that cop executed Oscar Grant.

The only reason I can see so far that got Zimmerman off the hook was the fact that he was some kind of "pseudo" or "semi" or "lite" cop.

And the racial circus that is now surrounding this case, (God help me I listened to an hour of Sean Shamity on this issue, I'm still boxing my ears to get the thrum of bullshit out of them) will now render any sort of action or justice here meaningless.

I think you gave good advice...

 

[smhbbag]

Is the witness reliable? There was complaints of black bias before Zimmerman was shot and why did the police chief all of the sudden resigned? Does he have anything to hide?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...m_national_pop

There are lots of reasons that the chief and prosecutor may have resigned, and I don't have any idea which one of those might be true. I'm not sure why that is relevant to the reliability of the witness.

The only reason I can see so far that got Zimmerman off the hook was the fact that he was some kind of "pseudo" or "semi" or "lite" cop.

Yeah, it couldn't be that....ummm....the facts are in Zimmerman's favor based on the physical evidence of his bruising and grass-stained coat, along with a direct eyewitness.

 

[rag-time4]

I don't recall this level of uproar when that cop executed Oscar Grant.

The only reason I can see so far that got Zimmerman off the hook was the fact that he was some kind of "pseudo" or "semi" or "lite" cop.

And the racial circus that is now surrounding this case, (God help me I listened to an hour of Sean Shamity on this issue, I'm still boxing my ears to get the thrum of bullshit out of them) will now render any sort of action or justice here meaningless.

I think you gave good advice...

We did have lively protests out here in California for Oscar Grant. Occupy Oakland also renamed the public plaza they began their encampment in "Oscar Grant Plaza". I think national coverage was not as significant though.

 

[Vanilluxe]

There are lots of reasons that the chief and prosecutor may have resigned, and I don't have any idea which one of those might be true. I'm not sure why that is relevant to the reliability of the witness.



Yeah, it couldn't be that....ummm....the facts are in Zimmerman's favor based on the physical evidence of his bruising and grass-stained coat, along with a direct eyewitness.

How weird is it if the Chief just resigned after the media reported that Zimmerman would not be arrested? Maybe a ghost told him to resign and why didn't the witness come out earlier and just did it when its all over the national media for at least a couple weeks? That is his only witness, which I bet every case has witnesses, but one does not make it reliable.

 

[smhbbag]

How weird is it if the Chief just resigned after the media reported that Zimmerman would not be arrested? Maybe a ghost told him to resign and why didn't the witness come out earlier and just did it when its all over the national media for at least a couple weeks? That is his only witness, which I bet every case has witnesses, but one does not make it reliable.

Do you see how hard you're straining to make this case not be what the physical evidence and eyewitness say it is?

Among other reasons they could have resigned: political threats from allies who don't want to be allied with their tarnished name any more, threats from angry protestors, a sense of 'this circus ain't what I signed up for,' or actual misconduct they don't want found out, or they are worried about civil liability or other personal lawsuit problems, scary feds from federal commissions and 3-letter agencies approaching them with demands and threats and such.

It really could be anything.

why didn't the witness come out earlier and just did it when its all over the national media for at least a couple weeks? That is his only witness, which I bet every case has witnesses, but one does not make it reliable.

The main (or rather, only) witness that exists and that I've been quoting gave his statement and it was published in the press the day after the shooting, long before this turned into a national story or anything more than a local matter.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

That's the story: "Published 27 Feb 2012."

 

[Anti Federalist]

We did have lively protests out here in California for Oscar Grant. Occupy Oakland also renamed the public plaza they began their encampment in "Oscar Grant Plaza". I think national coverage was not as significant though.

I followed that whole story pretty closely and out on the East Coast there was hardly any news of it at all.