Smoote-Hawley Tarriff

You haven't countered a single point he's made--you're just sticking negative labels on things and leaving at that---or worse, insinuating it's all part of some global conspiracy...if you're just going to throw out claims like this or engage in name-calling, then you've already lost the debate.

It's really quite simple, a global conspiracy is in play and if you choose to ignore that facts that have been presented, that is your right. Do not expect others to stand and be called socialists and communists for pointing out that a plutocracy has been created and what tools they have used. You are in a very small minority who believe otherwise.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...ew-World-Order-(Serious-responses-only-please.)

 
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It's really quite simple, a global conspiracy is in play and if you choose to ignore that facts that have been presented, that is your right. Do not expect others to stand and be called socialists and communists for pointing out that a plutocracy has been created and what tools they have used. You are in a very small majority who believe otherwise.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...ew-World-Order-(Serious-responses-only-please.)




Umm, you just did it again...lol. A "very small majority" you say? :)
 
ProIndividual. Having lived and worked on cattle ranches in the wilderness mountains of Arizona, I know that small groups can operate successfully without government assistance or interference, and it is an awesome experience. However, I would hate to think we had to stand against a foreign invasion with what little we had. I know what happened to the Tibetans.

Governments are dangerous, sort of like having a guard dog...he can be an asset only if one keeps control of him rather than the reverse. History shows that Constitutionally restricted Republics are the least dangerous only if the people are educated (not by government), and stay vigilant.

I appreciate your opinion. I would only ask you to consider that ending the State enforced monopoly on the military (not competing militaries for the money, that would be disasterous; but a fully volunteer military where some soldiers choose a contract that involves going to any war the govt wants, like now...and another contract that most soldiers will choose that allows them to opt-in or out of wars, foreign aid missions, etc., making wars of aggression nearly impossible), through contract (as I just described) and through funding (being funded by not theft, but donations). If the manpower is completetly voluntary (it's hard to say signing up for Afghanistan on 9/12 and ending up in Iraq is "voluntary"), whether by signing a more lucrative universal service contract or by opting into the individual operation (not the battles in that operation; once in, you're in), and IF the funding is completely voluntary, then any operations (wars, aid, etc.) will have their moral justification quantified.

The monopoly that used to conscript (and I will argue still does by bait and switch recruitment, preying on kids in high schools, etc.) will not allow any such quantification.

When the volunteers dry up, or the donations dry up, so to does all moral justification for operations. Otherwise we concede both that our people are unpatriotic and won't give the money if truely needed, and that our people are cowards who only fight when a force of law and threat of prison or worse coerces them to do so.

I don't think you believe these things...you may even agree with what I suggest (or not). I just want to be clear...I'm not for a military-less society...I'm just for a society without coercion. We can have a military without the coercive monopoly. It would be more moral, more efficient, more dedicated, and more liked around the world.

And might I also suggest that a little private management of the spending wouldn't hurt anything. I'd think privatizing just the money management of the military, in some kind of public/private partnership, at the least, would be good.

I'm totally in agreement with you...we need a military for defense. But collective defense isn't offense. The guard dog is on a chain and licks his masters hand...we have a rabid dog running around humping our neighbors dogs, shitting on their lawns, and biting us (afterall our kids die in places they don't morally agree with being in)! Let's put a damn shock collar on Rover, and be done with it. :)
 
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Straw men resort to insults when they have lost. If you can't kill the message, kill the messenger.

Oh! The irony! :rolleyes:

Again, you've NOT been able to dispute the fact that tariffs are a TAX on AMERICAN PEOPLE, that it's an INEQUITABLE form of taxation & that they raise prices on goods & lower living standards. And all of your pro-tariffs arguments have already been refuted beyond any doubt with reason & sound economics.

And could you care to clarify what straw man argument I've made in my last post? Or should I take it that you're the one making a straw man argument by claiming that I've made one?

It's really quite simple, a global conspiracy is in play and if you choose to ignore that facts that have been presented, that is your right. Do not expect others to stand and be called socialists and communists for pointing out that a plutocracy has been created and what tools they have used. You are in a very small minority who believe otherwise.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...ew-World-Order-(Serious-responses-only-please.)



Even though I wasn't quoted, the insinuation was there so I'll reply anyway.

I've NEVER said that there isn't a plutocracy out there, it's out there, the North American Union in the pipeline, Trilateral Commission, CFR & so on but putting tariffs & FORCING Americans to pay higher prices & lowering their living standards is NOT going to help. So I've NOT called you communist/socialist because of that, I've called you guys communist/socialist because.........guess what, BECAUSE you believe in communist/socialist policies, you believe that government should direct capital through tariffs, you believe that some Americans should be FORCED to pay more for the benefit of other Americans, that's communist/socialist thinking; NOT those who believe in freedom & EVERY person's right to their life, liberty & PROPERTY & the role of the limited government to treat all its citizens EQUALLY.

A big tarriff on all imports, except a few raw materials, is the only thing that can "fix" our economy. It by no means will end trade, it will just make domestic products more competitive. And for the idealists out there, yes I agree trade is good, but realize that we already don't have free trade because of all the restrictions in America from OSHA to minimum wage, tarrifs are needed even things out. We need them now to create jobs here and bring in goverment revenue. It's the only realistic fix. Yes it will make consumption a little more expensive, but we consume like gluttons now so we could stand a decrease. As an added bonus the dollar will appreciate.

Look, either you believe that EVERY person has an EQUAL right to his/her life, liberty & PROPERTY or you don't.

If you do believe that then you should recognize that tariffs are an INEQUITABLE form of taxation & thus, anti-liberty, because NOT all American will buy imported goods to the same extent so some will be FORCED into paying much more into the government than others, & that violates the liberty-principle that government MUST treat all its citizens EQUALLY.

Further, jobs have left America because of over-regulation, over-taxation, & destruction of capital caused by the government-spending so until these issues are resolved, nothing is going to get better; tariffs will redistribute the wealth of American people much like income-tax or inflation does & thereby America as a whole will be poorer due to the destruction of capital it'll cause.

As for the government, NO, they don't need any more revenue than they already have, they're already eating up 40% of the economy, they shouldn't need any more & in fact, they MUST reduce it or they're going to absorb the economy like all big governments do, & tariffs will only quicken that process as tariffs will lower the amount of goods/services available, thereby lower the capital in the country (goods/services ARE the capital, NOT the toilet-paper we call money), thereby more unemployment & misery, & therefore more socialism & more self-destruction of the economy.

I appreciate your opinion. I would only ask you to consider that ending the State enforced monopoly on the military (not competing militaries for the money, that would be disasterous; but a fully volunteer military where some soldiers choose a contract that involves going to any war the govt wants, like now...and another contract that most soldiers will choose that allows them to opt-in or out of wars, foreign aid missions, etc., making wars of aggression nearly impossible), through contract (as I just described) and through funding (being funded by not theft, but donations). If the manpower is completetly voluntary (it's hard to say signing up for Afghanistan on 9/12 and ending up in Iraq is "voluntary"), whether by signing a more lucrative universal service contract or by opting into the individual operation (not the battles in that operation; once in, you're in), and IF the funding is completely voluntary, then any operations (wars, aid, etc.) will have their moral justification quantified.

The monopoly that used to conscript (and I will argue still does by bait and switch recruitment, preying on kids in high schools, etc.) will not allow any such quantification.

When the volunteers dry up, or the donations dry up, so to does all moral justification for operations. Otherwise we concede both that our people are unpatriotic and won't give the money if truely needed, and that our people are cowards who only fight when a force of law and threat of prison or worse coerces them to do so.

I don't think you believe these things...you may even agree with what I suggest (or not). I just want to be clear...I'm not for a military-less society...I'm just for a society without coercion. We can have a military without the coercive monopoly. It would be more moral, more efficient, more dedicated, and more liked around the world.

And might I also suggest that a little private management of the spending wouldn't hurt anything. I'd think privatizing just the money management of the military, in some kind of public/private partnership, at the least, would be good.

I'm totally in agreement with you...we need a military for defense. But collective defense isn't offense. The guard dog is on a chain and licks his masters hand...we have a rabid dog running around humping our neighbors dogs, shitting on their lawns, and biting us (afterall our kids die in places they don't morally agree with being in)! Let's put a damn shock collar on Rover, and be done with it. :)

I support the sentiment. Supporting the military/state-militias through voluntary contributions will definitely help in preventing FORCED destruction/waste of people's wealth through unnecessary wars & the "wealth-transfer" it causes to the Military-Industrial-Complex, & it'd be a lot more civil way of financing the military/state-militias.
 
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Again, it should very obvious to any rational person with even a minimal understanding of economics that price-increase ANYWHERE across the chain equals to a price-increase for the CONSUMERS ie AMERICAN PEOPLE

If Chinese workers are producing something at $2 while their American counterparts are asking $7 for it then why should OTHER Americans be FORCED by the government to pay the extra cost? That's a socialist FORCED wealth-transfer right there by the government, that's a violation of those Americans' property-rights who're FORCED to buy costlier local products & subjected to a lower living standard for no fault of theirs.

On the other hand, those Americans who still buy foreign goods, be it due to lower supply of local goods or due to superior quality of the foreign goods, are FORCED to pay the extra cost to the government, again, that's a violation of their property-rights & an INEQUITABLE form of taxation.

Not to mention, the whole process allows local inefficient businesses to profiteer, that probably wouldn't even be in business without the tariff-protection; & early American history is proof that in the absence of other "regulations", corporatist businesses bribe politicians to raise tariffs & profiteer at the expense of American people.

And this is NOT it. Had it not been for the tariffs, the added cost/capital would've gone into some other area & produced more jobs, more goods/services & helped lower prices of those goods/services so in effect, it hurts the American people TWICE, firstly, the DIRECT price-rise due to tariffs & secondly, the INDIRECT price-rise that the added cost/capital would've prevented elsewhere, if that cost/capital wasn't transferred/destroyed UNJUSTLY.

Moreover, as I've said in the last post, the whole process of imposing tariffs only lowers the amount of goods/services in the economy, the capital in the economy is lowered because goods/services ARE essentially the capital (money is just a medium to facilitate easy exchange & a possible holder of purchasing-power for future consumption) so reduction in capital means reduction in further production & therefore more unemployment & misery, which will strengthen calls for more socialism in a welfare-state & then government will suck even more capital from the economy & continue to destroy the economy.

As for those saying, "America did just fine with tarriffs for so long so why would it not now?". Well, total government expenditure (Fed, state & local) back then was about 5-10% (see link below) of the economy & a significant % of it was sucked out of the economy through tariffs but it the total expenditure wasn't big enough to MASSIVELY affect the economic progress of the country as it was offset due to a largely unregulated, untaxed freer market but economy was STILL BEING HURT & Americans were being FORCED to pay higher prices than they should've & they'd lower living standards than they OTHERWISE would've had, if that capital wasn't sucked out of the economy through tariffs.
TODAY, the total government expenditure is near 40% & if you suck even more out of the economy through tariffs then that'll only aggravate the destruction of the economy & the destruction of the American nation.

http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/...tack=1&size=m&title=&state=US&color=c&local=s
 
Not to mention, the whole process allows local inefficient businesses to profiteer, that probably wouldn't even be in business without the tariff-protection; & early American history is proof that in the absence of other "regulations", corporatist businesses bribe politicians to raise tariffs & profiteer at the expense of American people.

Paying workers jack-crap with no benefits or time off and polluting the environment as much as you want...yup, that's certainly "efficient". Any business that doesn't roll like that shouldn't exist. Clearly. Why wouldn't you beat your workers?

Again, I have to ask, do you want the US to implement the working conditions of the Chinese? Please don't sidestep with quotes about freedom and efficiency and markets. Just answer the question so we know where things stand, thanks.
 
As a hobby, over the years, and to further enlighten myself, I've often looked for the origins of the countless sayings and strange traditions of men (like why people 'clink' glasses before they drink).

In a recent search for the origins of yet another saying, I came across a history gem:

In the late 18th and early 19th centuries, China had many goods that Europeans craved.

Despite strict government regulations, foreign trade in China expanded during the late 18th century and early 19th century. As trade grew, the West found themselves to have a large and rising trade deficit with China. They were increasingly anxious to balance their trade. Yet the Chinese, having a self-sufficient econom, showed little interest in Western products.

The more tea,silk and porcelain the British imported, the lower the money stock of silver the British Empire had. This was because China was on the silver standard and they would not buy any English goods to off set the trade imbalance. (Sound familiar?)

This caused a huge drain on the silver reserves of Great Britain and a huge pile of silver for China.

Finally, in 1820, the West found a product which China did not have, opium. Between 1829 and 1855, opium smuggling developed rapidly along China's South Coast. In 1820, 9,708 chests of opium was smuggled in per year. 15 years later, the smuggled opium rose to 35,445 chests, a growth of 400%. (Sound familiar?)

This drug infestation had the opposite effect, as addicted Chinese went from the casual wealthy user to 90% of males under 40 and they became less productive and more interested in getting stoned, China saw a net outflow of silver, while the trade monopoly enjoyed by the East India Company netted them huge profits.

Prior to the 1830s, there was but one port open to Western merchants, Guangzhou (Canton) and but one commodity that the Chinese would accept in trade, silver. Before 1828, large quantities of the Spanish silver coin, the Carolus, flowed into China in payment for the exotic commodities that Europeans craved; in contrast, in the decade of the 1830s, despite an imperial decree outlawing the export of yellow gold and white silver, "only $7,303,841 worth of silver was imported, whereas the silver exported was estimated at $26,618, 815 in the foreign silver coin, $25,548,205 in sycee, and $3,616,996 in gold".

Although the Chinese imperial government had long prohibited the drug except for medicinal use, the "British Hong" (companies such as Dent, Jardine, and Matheson authorized to operate in Canton) bought cheaply produced opium in the Begal and Malwa (princely) districts under the auspices of the British East India Company, the number of 150 lb. chests of the narcotic being imported rising from 9,708 in 1820 to 35,445 in 1835. With the British government's 1833 cancellation of the trade monopoly enjoyed by the East India Company, cheap opium flooded the market, and China's net outflow of silver amounted to some 34 million Mexican silver dollars over the course of the 1830s.

As the habit of smoking opium spread from the idle rich to ninety per cent of all Chinese males under the age of forty in the country's coastal regions, business activity was much reduced, the civil service ground to a halt, and the standard of living fell. The Emperor Dao guang's special anti-opium commissioner Lin Ze-xu (1785-1850), modestly estimated the number of his countrymen addicted to the drug to be 4 million, but a British physician practising in Canton set the figure at 12 million. Equally disturbing for the imperial government was the imbalance of trade with the West: whereas prior to 1810 Western nations had been spending 350 million Mexican silver dollars on porcelain, cotton, silks, brocades, and various grades of tea, by 1837 opium represented 57 per cent of Chinese imports, and for fiscal 1835-36 alone China exported 4.5 million silver dollars. The official sent in 1838 by the Emperor Dao guang (1821-1850) of the Qing Dynasty to confiscate and destroy all imports of opium, Lin Ze-xu, calculated that in fiscal 1839 Chinese opium smokers consumed 100 million taels' worth of the drug while the entire spending by the imperial government that year spent 40 million taels. He reportedly concluded, "If we continue to allow this trade to flourish, in a few dozen years we will find ourselves not only with no soldiers to resist the enemy, but also with no money to equip the army" quoted by Chesneaux et al., p. 55). By the late 1830s, foreign merchant vessels, notably those of Britain and the United States, were landing over 30,000 chests annually. (Sound familiar?)

Thus, I found the answer to my question; where did the saying "All the tea in China" come from?:

Meantime, corrupt officials in the hoppo (customs office) and ruthless merchants in the port cities were accumulating wealth beyond "all the tea in China" by defying imperial interdictions that had existed in principle since 1796. The standard rate for an official's turning a blind eye to the importation of a single crate of opium was 80 taels. Between 1821 and 1837 the illegal importation of opium (theoretically a capital offence) increased five fold. A hotbed of vice, bribery, and disloyalty to the Emperor's authority, the opium port of Canton would be the flashpoint for the inevitable clash between the governments of China and Great Britain.

The Outbreak of the First Opium War

This war with China . . . really seems to me so wicked as to be a national sin of the greatest possible magnitude, and it distresses me very deeply. Cannot any thing be done by petition or otherwise to awaken men's minds to the dreadful guilt we are incurring? I really do not remember, in any history, of a war undertaken with such combined injustice and baseness. Ordinary wars of conquest are to me far less wicked, than to go to war in order to maintain smuggling, and that smuggling consisting in the introduction of a demoralizing drug, which the government of China wishes to keep out, and which we, for the lucre of gain, want to introduce by force; and in this quarrel are going to burn and slay in the pride of our supposed superiority. — Thomas Arnold to W. W. Hull, March 18, 1840

Upon his arrival in Canton in March, 1839, the Emperor's special emissary, Lin Ze-xu, took swift action against the foreign merchants and their Chinese accomplices, making some 1,600 arrests and confiscating 11,000 pounds of opium. Despite attempts by the British superintendent of trade, Charles Elliot, to negotiate a compromise, in June Lin ordered the seizure another 20,00 crates of opium from foreign-controlled factories, holding all foreign merchants under arrest until they surrendered nine million dollars worth of opium, which he then had burned publicly. Finally, he ordered the port of Canton closed to all foreign merchants. Elliot in turn ordered a blockade of the Pearl River. In an ensuing naval battle, described as a victory by Chinese propagandists, in November 1839 the Royal Navy sank a number of Chinese vessels near Guangzhou. By January 1841, the British had captured the Bogue forts at the Pearl's mouth and controlled the high ground above the port of Canton. Subsequently, British forces scored victories on land at Ningbo and Chinhai, crushing the ill-equipped and poorly trained imperial forces with ease. Viewed as too moderate back at home, in August 1841 Elliot was replaced by Sir Henry Pottinger to launch a major offensive against Ningbo and Tiajin. By the end of June British forces occupied Zhenjiang and controlled the vast rice-growing lands of southern China.

The key to British victory was Her Majesty's Navy, which used the broadside with equal effect against wooden-hulled vessels, fortifications are river mouths, and city walls. The steel-hulled Nemesis, a shallow-draft armed paddle-wheeler loaned to the campaign by the British East India Company, quickly controlled the river basins and the Pearl River between Hong Kong and Canton, regardless of winds or tides that limited the effectiveness of Chinese junks. On land, Chinese bows and primitive firelocks proved no match for British muskets and artillery. For leading the Royal Marines to victory General Anthony Blaxland Stransham was knighted by Queen Victoria. His forces utterly defeated on land and sea, Lin Ze-xu in September 1840 had been recalled to Peking in disgrace, and Qi-shan, a Manchu aristocrat related to the Emperor, installed in Lin's place to deal with the foreign devils whose decisive victories were undermining the authority of the Qing Dynasty, which gradually lost control of a population of 300 million.

The Cost of Peace

i-shan's first major concession was to ransom Canton in the spring of 1841 from the British for six million silver dollars rather than try to defend it. By the middle of 1842, the British controlled the mouth of the Yangtze and Shanghai, and forced the Chinese to sign the first of a series of "unequal" treaties that turned control of much of the coast over to the West. While Chinese officials earnestly entreated Sir Henry Pottinger to cut the problem off at its source by recommending that the British government ban the cultivation of the poppy in India, Sir Henry argued that, as long as there remained substantial numbers of opium-addicts and corrupt customs officers in China, prohibiting the cultivation of opium in India "would merely throw the market into other hands" (cited by Ssu-Yu Teng, p. 70). Under the terms of the Treaty of Nanking (29 August 1842), signed as seems fitting now aboard a British warship at the mouth of the Yangtze, and a further "supplementary" treaty in 1843, China ceded the island of Hong Kong to Great Britain, opened five "Treaty" ports (Canton, Amoy, Foochow, Shanghai, and Ningbo) to Western trade and residence, granted Great Britain most-favoured nation status for trade (Sound familiar?), and paid nine million dollars in reparations to the merchants whose 20,000 chests of opium Lin Ze-xu had destroyed. China was compelled to abolish trading monopolies and limit tariffs to five per cent. Finally, and perhaps most important to China's loss of nationhood, the Manchu signatories accepted the principle of "extraterritoriality," whereby Western merchants were no longer accountable to China's laws, but rather to those of their mother countries. (In 1844, the United States and France extracted similar concessions from the imperial government, and the stage was set for the partition of the world's most populous nation by the numerically inferior but technologically superior Western powers.) No sooner had peace been negotiated than merchants began to hawk opium at fire-sale prices, and the conclusion of the Second Opium War (1856-58) removed all residual restraints on the trafficking of the drug.

So, China engaged in a "protectionist" trade policy that netted them a staggering trade imbalance with Great Britain, draining GB of its silver. They refused to acquiesce to GB's "Fair Trade" BS because they were well aware of its affect on Malaysia, India, Turkey, The Philippines and other neighboring nations. They didn't have to import western goods because they were a self sustaining economy that built stuff the rest of the world wanted.

The British plague cornered the market on opium and reversed the trade imbalance with China by drug trafficking.

The Chinese made opium trafficking illegal.

The Brits smuggled and bribed the drugs into China.

China cracked down on the illegal trafficking.

The King sent in the Marines.

The Nanking Treaty netted GB ports, Hong Kong and Most Favored Nation status and reparations for the confiscated opium.

GB's main export, opium, poured into China.

Sounds like Utopia, that Fair Trade stuff.

China lost control of it's sovereignty through the Nanking Treaty for a century. Then, after the US defeat in Vietnam, during which the VC were supplied with weapons by China, and a history of the most brutal government in history, Reagan lobbies for and Congress bestows upon China Most Favored Nation status, and the very best of the very best version of MFN at that.

The US adopts the same one-way street Fair Trade policy of GB, calling it Free Trade while moving the steel, textiles and other industries to China en-masse. China is routinely allowed to place taxes, duties, bans and other similar planks of the trade barrier wall on imports while they face none of the above with their highest tier MFN status, steal intellectual property, dump against competitors who chose to remain in the US and other really cool Free Trade stuff. For this Utopian arrangement, better known as "The Chinese Miracle", China only has to agree to set aside a percentage of their resulting mammoth trade surplus to... buy US debt, allowing the Federal Reserve's giant debt Ponzi Scheme to continue for a while longer.

It's my opinion that, now that the rats have jumped ship and moved their enterprises to China of Oz, thus exposing who they are, slam up the tariffs and other trade barriers and let them suck the other end of the pipe.

Tariffs with reciprocity is free trade. All of the above is a Rothschild-fiat currency-fueled BS story that makes Al Capone look like an alter boy, and anyone who buys the Free Trade slogan is an idiot who never invented or manufactured anything in his life and who prefers the pot metal and plastic version of the real McCoy.

I wouldn't endorse the acid trip of Free Trade for All The Tea In China.

Bosso
 
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So Thomas Jefferson, who enacted tariffs, was a socialist?

IN ESSENCE, yes, and he lied to the Americans people as well by calling tariffs "external tax" as if to say that tariffs-tax wasn't being paid by Americans when in fact it was. May be he & some other Founders were extremely fearful of a British takeover & thereby were OVER-cautious & MAY BE some people MAY deem it justifiable BUT that does NOT mean they were right in impossing an INEQUITABLE tariff-tax on American people & thereby reducing the number of goods/services in the economy & lowering Americans' living standards & causing a wealth-transfer that tariffs cause.

Your argument for free trade is the same one we heard from Clinton and Gore about the benefits of NAFTA. The Mexicans will do the blue collar work which will free up Americans for the high-paying jobs. Didn't happen, did it? What happened was Wall Street financiers made a killing and everyone who works for a living sucked on the big one.

Firstly, I've NEVER said that ALL Americans will end up with high-paying jobs, I've said it's UNJUST of government to VIOLATE people's PROPERTY-RIGHTS by FORCING them to pay more & causing a wealth-transfer, it's neither justifiable nor good for the economy.

And again, NAFTA is NOT free trade, it's REGULATED CORPORATIZED trade so no wonder corporatists profited big, that's what it supposed to do.

I know, I know. It's managed trade. That's the fallback argument, just like global warming zealots can always explain away a cold snap as climate change.

It's NOT a fallback argument because NAFTA & REAL free trade are two DIFFERENT things; REAL free trade helps increase REAL WEALTH ie goods/services in the country & thereby lower prices & people are better off BUT REGULATED TRADE is corporatist in nature, NOT the people & the country; that's a BIG DIFFERENCE between the two.

You blaming REAL free trade due to REGULATED trade is like when people blame capitalism due to corporatism because they both end up creating rich people BUT the fact is that under capitalism, generally, people get rich by producing more goods/services & thereby making others richer than they would've been otherwise; same holds true for free trade, it would have the effect of lowering incomes & the NOMINAL wages would go down BUT the REAL wages would go up & REAL WAGES is what counts.

And if you think Chinese people can't do the good jobs, you don't know the Chinese. Protectionist China is going to take every manufacturing job there is, and they're coming after your cubicle job, too. Soon they'll be competing with Wal-Mart on the retail front. They are building their own big box stores in China now. They will build them here. Watch it happen.

Typical communist/socialist fear-mongering :rolleyes:

I've NEVER said that Chinese can't do good jobs, I've said they can't RIGHT NOW because they're poorer & less skilled but as their incomes rise then they will but as I've before US incomes & their incomes will be moving towards equilibrium. And I don't give a shit about how much manufacturing they do, it's because we've minimum-wage laws & welfarism that chases those jobs overseas & because government is wasting nearly 40% of the economy.

Seriously, when will you learn that goods/services are the REAL WEALTH? The more of them are here, the cheaper they'll be & MORE people will be able to enjoy them. If you protect manufacturing then that'll suck out from other sectors & even more people will be laid off there as the manufacturing are set above the market-wage & thereby raise prices & less goods/services will be available & the country will be POORER for it.

Meanwhile, all those millions of Mexicans displaced by NAFTA will keep streaming across the border to take jobs as construction workers, plumbers, truck drivers, electricians, etc. And they will do it for less pay than an American can raise a family on. Plus, they'll vote in their ethnic compatriots who promise to pay off their underwater mortgages and put their kids through school for free.

I'm NOT for immigration, other than controlled high-skilled-workers' immigration so I believe border-vigilante should be given more freedom & let them take of the business.

In the real world, free trade causes a collapse in wages and a concentration of wealth in the financial sector.

Of course, NOMINAL wages would go down as competition is expanded but REAL wages rise as more goods/services are produced & thereby their prices go down too; these are natural functions of supply & demand, please learn some sound economics at the earliest.

Just like how there are a few companies producing a good & when new companies enter the market & more goods/services are produced, there nominal profits of the existing companies would go down because of increased supply; in the same way, free market means, workers don't get to monopolize or cartelize the market & ask for higher wages as they've compete with workers elsewhere so nominal wages go down due to increased competition but on the other hand, more & more goods/services are available as people can buy in the cheapest market & more goods/services mean lower prices as well so people's living standards are enhanced.

The whole concept of free trade is racist to begin with. Americans are smarter and creative so we will take the high value jobs. The Mexicans are poor and ignorant so they can work for Ford. The Chinese are uncreative drones so they can build Mattel toys and make our shoes. It's not true. What's true is Americans are dumb for killing the goose that laid the golden egg just to turn it over to a few fast-talking shysters on Wall Street.

So you really are a lefty afterall! This is what lefties do, when they can't make rational arguments they throw in the racist card in the hope that the person will retreat :rolleyes:

Anyways, since you want to talk about "racism", here's what's racist. Your belief that American workers should be paid more for doing the same job as their Chinese, Mexican counterparts, THAT'S RACISM. It is racist to believe that there's something great about Americans that makes them SUPERIOR to their counterparts in other countries that they "deserve" more, nope, they don't. So it is PROTECTIONISM that's racist.

Free trade has nothing to do with racism, it's a belief that people should earn according their merit & skills, nothing racist about that.
 
Paying workers jack-crap with no benefits or time off and polluting the environment as much as you want...yup, that's certainly "efficient". Any business that doesn't roll like that shouldn't exist. Clearly. Why wouldn't you beat your workers?

Wow! More straw man arguments! How surprising! :rolleyes:

You see, people get "jack-crap" because that's what supply & demand determines. In essence, it's not the businesses that set wages of labor, supply & demand factors do; if businesses could set wages then wouldn't EVERYONE be working on $1 or whatever? But that's NOT how it works.

The lower-skilled jobs earn a lower incomes because the supply of such labor is very high so it's cost/wages are lower while higher-skilled jobs earn a higher incomes because supply of such labor is lower & these supply/demand factors are what essentially set prices/incomes.

If you artifically raise incomes by government FORCE then that only displaces capital from other sectors & causes more unemployment & because less goods/services are produced, their prices are higher & more people are miserable than they otherwise would be while allowing the market to take its course will maximum jobs, maximum goods/services & lower prices & everyone is better off.

As I've said in my last post, if a Chinese workers is doing a job at $2 & tariffs are put up to make sure that American workers get $7 for the same job then how is the additional cost paid? As I've said, it sucks out more capital from other areas of the economy causing lower-skilled workers in those areas to lose their jobs.

The pollution argument shows your lack of understanding of libertarianism. Pollution is prevented through property-rights so if someone pollutes your property then you've a right to redress, if someone pollutes "public property" then members of the public can sue them; this way the issue of pollution is dealt with DIRECTLY rather than relying on government politicians & bureaucrats making "regulations", the "regulations" only ensure that corporatists who bribe politicians & bureaucrats get to pollute & do so "legally" so members of public can't sue them because they'd be "in compliance" with the "government regulations". :(

Again, I have to ask, do you want the US to implement the working conditions of the Chinese? Please don't sidestep with quotes about freedom and efficiency and markets. Just answer the question so we know where things stand, thanks.

I don't WANT to but if that's what they end up with then they can't be allowed to STEAL from others & again, if they're paid higher wages above the market-wage then that displaces even more workers in other areas of the economy so it's not like there's anything gained in the process other than more unemployment, less goods/services & higher prices & more misery & causing the country's economy to spiral downwards.

The biggest problem I see with you guys is that you think "money" is wealth but in essence, as the Weimar Republic & many other countries & recently Zimbabwe found out, money is NOT wealth, not in a national sense anyway but goods/services are the REAL WEALTH & we can't increase real wealth in the economy by REDUCING the the goods/services in the economy.

Again, it all comes down to the fact that economy is dynamic & INTERCONNECTED thing so if you FORCE prices to rise in one area then that automatically displaces capital in other areas. Further, as the prices rise, people demand higher incomes to keep their prosperity & guess who has more bargaining power? The higher-skilled workers. Because their supply is lower in the economy & how is this rise in demand for income of higher-skilled employees accommodated for? Well, by laying off more lower-skilled employees. So more unemployment, less goods/services, higher prices & it's a NEGATIVE SPIRAL for the economy as a whole.

So if you think that you can circumvent the market like how communist/socialist central-planners think or how the central-bankers around the world think then you should consider learning some sound economics at mises.org
 
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As a hobby, over the years, and to further enlighten myself, I've often looked for the origins of the countless sayings and strange traditions of men (like why people 'clink' glasses before they drink).

In a recent search for the origins of yet another saying, I came across a history gem:

In the late 18th and early 19th centuries, China had many goods that Europeans craved.

This caused a huge drain on the silver reserves of Great Britain and a huge pile of silver for China.

This drug infestation had the opposite effect, as addicted Chinese went from the casual wealthy user to 90% of males under 40 and they became less productive and more interested in getting stoned, China saw a net outflow of silver, while the trade monopoly enjoyed by the East India Company netted them huge profits.

Thus, I found the answer to my question; where did the saying "All the tea in China" come from?:

So, China engaged in a "protectionist" trade policy that netted them a staggering trade imbalance with Great Britain, draining GB of its silver. They refused to acquiesce to GB's "Fair Trade" BS because they were well aware of its affect on Malaysia, India, Turkey, The Philippines and other neighboring nations. They didn't have to import western goods because they were a self sustaining economy that built stuff the rest of the world wanted.

The British plague cornered the market on opium and reversed the trade imbalance with China by drug trafficking.

The Chinese made opium trafficking illegal.

The Brits smuggled and bribed the drugs into China.

China cracked down on the illegal trafficking.

The King sent in the Marines.

The Nanking Treaty netted GB ports, Hong Kong and Most Favored Nation status and reparations for the confiscated opium.

GB's main export, opium, poured into China.

Sounds like Utopia, that Fair Trade stuff.

China lost control of it's sovereignty through the Nanking Treaty for a century. Then, after the US defeat in Vietnam, during which the VC were supplied with weapons by China, and a history of the most brutal government in history, Reagan lobbies for and Congress bestows upon China Most Favored Nation status, and the very best of the very best version of MFN at that.

The US adopts the same one-way street Fair Trade policy of GB, calling it Free Trade while moving the steel, textiles and other industries to China en-masse. China is routinely allowed to place taxes, duties, bans and other similar planks of the trade barrier wall on imports while they face none of the above with their highest tier MFN status, steal intellectual property, dump against competitors who chose to remain in the US and other really cool Free Trade stuff. For this Utopian arrangement, better known as "The Chinese Miracle", China only has to agree to set aside a percentage of their resulting mammoth trade surplus to... buy US debt, allowing the Federal Reserve's giant debt Ponzi Scheme to continue for a while longer.

It's my opinion that, now that the rats have jumped ship and moved their enterprises to China of Oz, thus exposing who they are, slam up the tariffs and other trade barriers and let them suck the other end of the pipe.

Tariffs with reciprocity is free trade. All of the above is a Rothschild-fiat currency-fueled BS story that makes Al Capone look like an alter boy, and anyone who buys the Free Trade slogan is an idiot who never invented or manufactured anything in his life and who prefers the pot metal and plastic version of the real McCoy.

I wouldn't endorse the acid trip of Free Trade for All The Tea In China.

Bosso

This is just a grotesque misrepresentation of the economic events of the time :rolleyes:

At the time, most of Britain & most of Europe had been leaping ahead of all the other countries including China due to Industrial Revolution which'd caused them have much higher level of prosperity than China so China was in a pretty similar position that it is today in the sense that it'd huge land & labor to produce things & export them, tea & silk were their main exports to Europe which meant that goods were going out of China & silver (money) was coming in.

Now, it is important to understand how "commodity-standard" (in this case "silver-standard") works. When country C exports to country E, goods go out & silver (money) comes in while silver (money) goes out of country E & goods come in. Because there'd been a gap in the living standards of Europe & China, China for a fair number of years had been exporting to Europe which caused Chinese silver-reserves to increase & lowered European silver-reserves BUT what does it mean? It means that China's "money-supply" (or "silver-supply" if you will) increased while Europe's silver-supply decreased which meant that an ounce of silver in China had LOWER purchasing-power while an ounce of silver in Europe had HIGHER purchasing-power.

Now, under normal circumstances, if free markets are allowed work, it'd just mean that Chinese will find cheaper European goods attractive & Europeans will find Chinese costlier goods less attractive which means European imports into China will increase & silver will go back into Europe as a result & this is how the markets keep moving back & forth towards equilibrium.

But as has been said, Chinese were protectionist because, like some people on this forum, they thought money (ie silver) was wealth but the fact is, goods/services are the REAL WEALTH so they didn't allow the markets to move towards equilibrium due to their protectionism & caused what an increase in money-supply causes ie inflation & prices rose, production fell & people started becoming poorer & they started indulging in drugs too as has been mentioned.

Now, because there was a high demand for opium in China & Chinese government wouldn't allow it, smuggling was inevitable & Chinese war-against-drugs failed just as badly as America's war-against-drugs is failing.

Now, it wasn't like Britain intended to destroy China or anything, they were NOT FORCING Chinese people to take drugs, Chinese people had the choice NOT to use them but obviously Chinese people wanted them, that's why there was a huge demand for it & British merely saw it as an opportunity to make profits & to reverse silver-supply so that they could buy more Chineses products.

But obviously Chinese government was intent on protectionism & they started seizing opium supplies being smuggled in from Britain which caused tensions to escalate & a war ensued.

Now, I'm NOT saying British were saints, NO, but blaming the war on free trade is extremely unfair because it was NOT free trade that caused the war, it was PROTECTIONISM that caused the war.

If China had NOT been protectionist & after their money-supply (ie silver-supply) had increased, had they adopted free trade & let Chinese people buy European goods which they'd've found cheaper then the silver-supply would've been reversed & market moved towards equilibrium so Chinese people would've'd more goods & higher living standards while giving silver in return would mean Chinese silver-supply would've decreased & their inflation would've been sucked out while Europe's money-supply would've increased & they would've bought more Chinese goods which they obviously wanted to which'd've created demand for Chinese goods & thereby cause chinese businesses to envision profits & thereby create jobs & goods/services.

This is what happens in a free market; countries as a whole & their people benefit as they get to buy cheapest & more goods/services than they otherwise could.

CURRENT AMERICA-CHINA SITUATION

Generally, people find it easier to understand the link between import-export, currencies, free trade & prosperity when we look at how these things work under a "commodity-standard" so I'll try to explain these things in the context of current America-China situation. When we're on a paper-money-standard, NOTHING amongst these variables & how they lead to prosperity changes but understanding the underlying relationship may get difficult to understand due to added factors like government manipulation of currency but the underlying effects do NOT change.

Now, under a paper-currency, WITHOUT any manipulation, when US keeps buying alot of Chinese goods, it'd cause Yuan to rise against dollar & over time, Chinese would find US products cheaper & US would find Chinese products costlier & then market equilibrium will go back & forth like that.

But in real life, China either buys dollars or devalues their currency in order to NOT allow it to rise against the dollar. But this does NOT have any negative effect on US. WHY? Well, when US buys from China, it gets cheap goods which enhance Americans' living standards while it gets US dollars in return. Of course, it doesn't allow its currency to rise but that only hurts the purchasing-power of Chinese people BUT those dollars get reinvested in US one way or another which helps create jobs & goods/services in US & the additional income that is generated out of it is what allows Americans to buy more Chinese goods so it's essentially a win-win situation for BOTH countries (except the Chinese people, of course but they too benefit to a degree anyway) so they're essentially keeping their people poor through tariffs & currency-manipulation to provide US with cheaper goods, not a bad situation to be in for the US.

Now, what'll happen if we adopt protectionism & put up tariffs? Well, it'll obviously mean an end to cheaper goods as well as MORE of our capital will be used up for LESS goods because our workers will've to be paid much higher wages because of minium-wage laws & everything so MORE of our capital will be engaged in production of LESS goods which obviously means much higher prices AND it also means that that ADDITIONAL CAPITAL that'll be needed will be sucked out from other areas of the economy which means you'll've MORE job-losses & drop in production & higher prices in those areas.

Now, interventionists mostly see the economy as a static model & that's why they think that they can meddle in one area of the economy & not affect others but that's not how the real-world economies work; in fact, they're very dynamic so every time you meddle in one area, it causes all others to re-adjust accordingly & that's why central-planning is so difficult to engage in because of the dynamic nature of economies.

So because of economy's dynamic nature, even if prices increase in one area, it causes all the other prices to re-adjust according their new supply/demand factors. Because as prices initially rise even in an area of the economy, people bearing those high prices demand higher incomes to ensure their prosperity & higher-skilled people have the most bargaining power because their skills are in shorter supply than lower-skilled people & in order to free up more capital to accommodate higher incomes of higher-skilled people, businesses have to lay off more lower-skilled people which causes more unemployment among the poor low-skilled workers, decrease in production of goods/services AND higher prices of goods/services that the business is producing & so on & so on it causes a "domino effect" throughout the economy. Therefore, prices & unemployment throughout the economy keep having upward pressure, the production keeps having downward pressure UNTIL the market is put back in charge; if not then the economy keeps eating itself. This is how socialism destroys economies & countries, the more socialist the country, the faster it degenerates.

So again, when one raises questions over US unemployment & drop in living standards (reduction in REAL WEALTH ie goods/services) then one must realize that 40% of the US economy is being sucked out every year, plus, there are minimum-wage laws, over-regulation, etc etc & obviously Fed's boom-bust & inflation cycles don't help the economy & unemployment either which are further choking enterpreneurship in the US & that is why US is suffering so unless these resolved or at least significantly ameliorated, US & its economy is likely to continue to spiral downwards, in terms of prosperity, for some time to come. Putting tariffs to "save jobs" is like treating the symptom rather than treating the underlying diseases which is over-regulation, over-taxation, Fed, etc; tariffs WON'T help, they'll cause EVEN MORE unemployment as they'll displace capital & workers in other areas of the economy & cause a "domino effect" of lower goods/services & higher prices & higher unemployment.

The bottomline is that NOBODY can circumvent the markets & in the long-run, it always causes more harm than good.

TRADE DEFICIT MYTH

 
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This is what your whole "argument" boils down to.

Obviously, that's all they've got, no real economic arguments :rolleyes:

Your ideology does not mesh with reality.

Oh yeah, then please point out the structural abnormalities which make it different in "reality", otherwise you're just making an unfounded assertion.

Theoretically I agree with your logic, I'm as much a capitalist as anyone else, but let's face the facts.

No, sorry, let's face facts, you're NOT a capitalist, you don't respect property-rights & you think it's ok for government to STEAL money from it citizens however they wish & you believe in FORCED wealth-transfer so you're obviously a socialist.

We are not going to let sick people die, or unproductive people starve to death in the streets. Elements of socialism to prevent these things are an inherent part of our society.

Thanks for admitting that you support socialism, unlike others here, at least you're being honest enough to admit that you're socialist :rolleyes:

The thing is MORE people will die in the streets WITH tariffs, & socialism & the destruction it causes; it'll cause MORE unemployment, LESS goods/services, HIGHER prices & LOWER living standards & MORE misery. On the other hand, if you DON'T intervene in the markets, it'll lead to LESS unemployment, MORE goods/services, LOWER prices, HIGHER living standards & LESS misery AND not only that but if more goods/services are available then people will be more open to offering help to poor & sufferring.

Sure, a 100% free market would be the logical and most efficient choice, but it will never happen in our democracy because that very ideal dictates that unproductive people should starve. Now that brings us to the issue of trade. We start from a competitive disadvantage due to the above socialistic factors that aren't going away. The only way to overcome that disadvantage is to tax imports. This would by no means end trade, it would just make domestic goods more competitive and strengthen the dollar. What's more important, cheap(er) blue jeans from china or TEN MILLION+ extra jobs in America and the domino effect of benefits that come with it and ripple through society?

We import $2.0 trillion in goods each year. Let's say we exclude a broad definition of raw materials from the tariff, then we have about $1.2 trilion in imports that would be taxed. Let's say the tax is 50%. So now your Hyundai is going to be $30,000 instead of $20,000, your walmart polo is going to be $15 instead of $10, etc... Big whoop.... we consume too much already. Let's look at the up side though. Assume the 50% tax on imports decreases imports by 50% (for hypothetical ease). Here's what could happen:

1) An extra $600 billion would now be produced in america. (50% of $1.2 trillion)

2) That extra $600 billion produced locally broken down into paychecks of $50,000 each could employ 12,000,000, yes TWELVE MILLION PEOPLE AT $50,000 on average. Guess what, that pretty much matches the total number of unemployed in America right now.

3) The $600 billion still imported (remember we're still importing another $800 billion in raw materials, that we're not even talking about) would be taxed at 50% and generate government revenues of $300 billion. Thus taking a huge chunk out of the deficit.

4) The dollar would appreciate, we would be demanding less foreign goods so naturally the dollar will get stronger. This will decrease the price we pay for our imported raw materials (think oil and gasoline!)

5) Every sector of the economy would benefit from the increased $600,000,000,000 in domestic manufacturing. Tons of ancilliary services and businesses would pop up to service the needs of the millions of additional workers at home, further boosting domestic GDP.

My argument speaks for itself. You theorists can nitpick all you want, but remember its a simplistic example meant to give a quick portrayal of my general argument, so lets focus on the big picture. You might be outraged that I contradict what your economics textbook says, but get real. I support as much freedom as possible, and I don't see regulating foreign goods to be a bad thing when it has an overwhelmingly positive effect at home. The other option is to get rid of the minimum wage, healthcare, OSHA, etc... But what's more likely? It's one or the other folks. If you want to call it welfare so be it, but what form of welfare would you prefer: Checks in the mail to unemployed people, at the expense of the whole nation, or a tariff on imported goods that create jobs for those unemployed, enriching the nation at the expense of extravagant and cheap consumption?

Please read my recent posts to Grinning Maniac & Bossoboss.

This view is what is called "the race to the bottom."

Don't worry. Your view won with the people who matter a long time ago.

Say goodbye to the American middle class. It's on its death bed anyway.

Can you even understand English, let alone economics?

If government FORCING wages/prices upwards is what causes prosperity then why have minimum-wage at $7-8? Why not $50? Why not $100? Why not $1000? Will that cause a "a race to the TOP"? :rolleyes:

GOODS & SERVICES are the REAL WEALTH so when the free market is allowed to work & thereby, there's maximum utilization of labor & capital that leads to production of maximum goods/services which is REAL WEALTH which determines people's living standards. Money alone & NOMINAL wages do not count for shit, if we've a hyperinflation then we'll all be billionaires but it won't buy shit so go to mises.org & learn some damn sound economics.
 
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Paul or Nothing II is pretty much dead on.

I have very little else to contribute other then to say that. He got most of it.
 
+1 to Paul or Nothing.

You have further obliterated their arguments. Anyone who was on the fence before this thread that took the time to read it will know who won the debate. There is no need to continue wasting your time at this point, IMO.
 
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