Pledge of Allegiance/National Anthem

[Legend1104]

When I say the pledge I am pledging to the idea of America, not any particular government. I pledge to the idea of a system of laws establish by men to protect the rights of it's citizens. I have no problem with that.

Some have expressed issue over pledging allegiance to anything other than God. I understand that idea and have struggled with it myself but I have looked at the word allegiance and it means "loyalty to a person, country, group, etc" according to the dictionary. there is nothing inherently wicked in saying that I will be loyal to the idea of America. liked I mentioned in my previous post, symbols are given meaning by men. Each man should decide for himself what symbolism to give an object.

To some the flag represents the death of hundreds of thousands of men and women and all of the other evils that the recent governments have performed. I personally understand that but I don't choose to see the flag as that symbol I pledge my loyalty to the America of the Constitution and Bill of Rights and founders and that is what I will support, not the tyranny of our currents masters.

 

[Carlybee]

My son refused to stand for the pledge in high school and his teacher called me at work to voice his outrage.

 

[Thor]

Fun with words:

"I pledge allegiance to the founding of the United States of America, but not the Oligarchy or current shams, a Nation sold out, in decline, needing liberty and justice for all."

 

[Xenliad]

My son refused to stand for the pledge in high school and his teacher called me at work to voice his outrage.

How did the conversation go?

 

[Tywysog Cymru]

I feel bad for mindlessly reciting the pledge all throughout school. My senior year I already knew better.

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

Wow, you were a smart fifth grader. I just wanted to bomb people because "America" back then. How did you get your thought process "beaten" out of you?

My father resorted to violence to solve disputes. My mother was extremely manipulative and overreacted to everything, so that brought about more violence. I eventually just went along to stop from getting beaten.

 

[Christian Liberty]

So here's my dilemma - in my daughters Awanas program at church the pledge both the US flag and Christian flag, which bothers me to no end. The few people i mentioned it to had very negative reactions to me opposing it and one even told me maybe i should leave the country.

I'm not trying to be confrontational or sound kooky, but I am not sure how to proceed. I don't want to pull riley out of the class because its a great environment otherwise but this is a major issue to me.

I have no right to tell you what to do, and I don't have children yet, but I would pull them out, IMO. Part of that is because I'm an evangelical Christian myself and I am DISGUSTED by the idolatry that goes on. I'm not going to do it to my kids.

Don't just not send your kid, though. Tell them why. Make them deal with the fact that they are idolaters. Admittedly, I know this is hard to do, but I think its ideal.

My son refused to stand for the pledge in high school and his teacher called me at work to voice his outrage.

What happened? What did you say? (If you don't mind sharing.)

I feel bad for mindlessly reciting the pledge all throughout school. My senior year I already knew better.

I knew better in senior year to. The main reason I didn't stand strong was because of lack of parental support, TBH. At this point I am at a point where I would stand for my convictions (and my parents respect them more to) but at the time I was really still working through it and it was a difficult situation. The first time I actively did not pledge was at graduation. Admittedly, I was still a minarchist at that point, so I sort of justified it by saying I was pledging to the ideals America was founded on, or something like that. Theologically I really don't think that works. We shouldn't be pledging to ANYTHING but God. Sola_Fide really hammered me about this during one of the early threads I started about this, and he was right.

 

[Christian Liberty]

My father resorted to violence to solve disputes. My mother was extremely manipulative and overreacted to everything, so that brought about more violence. I eventually just went along to stop from getting beaten.

Yikes. I am sorry. That sounds awful.

Did they actually manage to change what you thought, or did you just pretend to agree with them while really not?

 

[Orange]

My anthem contains 'god save our gracious queen' and 'long to reign over us, god save the queen'. *face palm*. I don't sing the British national anthem because I don't agree with the contents, that's that really.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

My anthem contains 'god save our gracious queen' and 'long to reign over us, god save the queen'. *face palm*. I don't sing the British national anthem because I don't agree with the contents, that's that really.

You know, I haven't come across an anthem yet that does not have questionable content.

 

[Orange]

You know, I haven't come across an anthem yet that does not have questionable content.

Yeah, it's the religious and authoritarian elements of the British that is so detached from my beliefs. In Britain we are less patriotic so it isn't a massive issue when people don't sing the anthem - I would imagine when the Queen dies and we have 'God save the King' there may be a bigger republican movement springing up!

In America i believe you guys have the anthem at all sporting events and across the board and there's a greater culture for it - quite different here.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Yeah, it's the religious and authoritarian elements of the British that is so detached from my beliefs. In Britain we are less patriotic so it isn't a massive issue when people don't sing the anthem - I would imagine when the Queen dies and we have 'God save the King' there may be a bigger republican movement springing up!

In America i believe you guys have the anthem at all sporting events and across the board and there's a greater culture for it - quite different here.

It's done at all the baseball games, but that's the only sport in which it's common, AFAIK.

 

[staerker]

It's done at all the baseball games, but that's the only sport in which it's common, AFAIK.

Hmmm? As well as football (only Monday night?,) futbol, and hockey.

I still haven't had the chance to refuse, thankfully.

 

[Occam's Banana]

 

[Southron]

I can't say the Pledge because I would be lying. We are hardly a republic, we are not "under God", nor are we an indivisible nation.

We need to make a better distinction between Patriotism and Nationalism. I am trying to do better in contrasting these myself.

I like this description by Clyde Wilson: "Patriotism is the love of one's people and land. Nationalism is the worship of one's government, usually accompanied by an aggressive impulse towards other countries."

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Hmmm? As well as football (only Monday night?,) futbol, and hockey.

I still haven't had the chance to refuse, thankfully.

Thnx. I'll take your word for it. I've only been to a live baseball game. :o The rest I've only seen on TV.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

LOLZ!!!

 

[staerker]

I can't say the Pledge because I would be lying. We are hardly a republic, we are not "under God", nor are we an indivisible nation.

We need to make a better distinction between Patriotism and Nationalism. I am trying to do better in contrasting these myself.

I like this description by Clyde Wilson: "Patriotism is the love of one's people and land. Nationalism is the worship of one's government, usually accompanied by an aggressive impulse towards other countries."

Naturally I have more empathy for my peers, but I don't think that that is sound. Possibly more responsibility, but love?

We do not acknowledge allegiance to any human government. We
recognize but one King and Lawgiver, one Judge and Ruler of mankind.
Our country is the world, our countrymen are all mankind. We love the
land of our nativity only as we love all other lands. The interests and rights
of American citizens are not dearer to us than those of the whole human
race.

 

[Southron]

Naturally I have more empathy for my peers, but I don't think that that is sound. Possibly more responsibility, but love?

I understand that someone could have no love for their people. Perhaps you see yourself as merely an individual and not a person that is part of any group with any sort of bond. I guess most Americans see life this way nowadays. But I can honestly say I do have love for my family, friends, church, community and even the land I grew up on. I do consider these "my people and my land". Responsibility would definitely go along with that.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I understand that someone could have no love for their people. Perhaps you see yourself as merely an individual and not a person that is part of any group with any sort of bond. I guess most Americans see life this way nowadays. But I can honestly say I do have love for my family, friends, church, community and even the land I grew up on. I do consider these "my people and my land". Responsibility would definitely go along with that.

How so? Unless these are all your property, it strikes me as a non-sequitur.