Pledge of Allegiance/National Anthem

[Legend1104]

What about "indivisible"?

Also, what republic?

uh.. you must not of read my entire post because I addressed both those points.

 

[Christian Liberty]

That's one perspective, and may be correct. But I think a number of people in the Bible showed more respect to kings and such then I would like too. I'm not totally convinced it is a religious ceremony, after all, it does say 'under God' that's more than Heathen kings and Pharaoh's would admit. You could argue that under the pledge, you would still not be bound to any immoral action of the government. Regardless of the percentage of evil our current public servants do.

It is religious in some sense, because its a pledge of allegiance. Christianity is about allegiance to God alone. I don't think anyone in the Bible showed that much respect to kings. I agree that it doesn't inherently bind you to immoral actions by government, but still.

Kind of, but they weren't fleshed out. As a child, I frequently asked my parents why it was okay for the government to force them to pay taxes when we were clearly financially struggling and they didn't want to pay taxes. Also asked why it was okay for the government to bomb people overseas who weren't attacking us. Never really got satisfactory answers. Or any answer outside of 'because'.

By the time I was a teenager my thought process was pretty literally beaten out of me, and I became status quo GOP/religious until my early 20s.

Wow, you were a smart fifth grader. I just wanted to bomb people because "America" back then. How did you get your thought process "beaten" out of you?

 

[Anti Federalist]

It is religious in some sense, because its a pledge of allegiance. Christianity is about allegiance to God alone. I don't think anyone in the Bible showed that much respect to kings. I agree that it doesn't inherently bind you to immoral actions by government, but still.

But...but...Romans 13

 

[Anti Federalist]

Just do what I do, stand and recite this instead:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

 

[Christian Liberty]

But...but...Romans 13

lol. I've found out that everyone has their own interpretation of this passage and that its usually meaningless to debate it with non-libertarians. The bottom line is that Paul somehow penned that under one of the most oppressive regimes in history. He was killed by the same government he was under when he wrote that. I don't know exactly what the passage means, but clearly we cannot read as much into it as some would like.

 

[staerker]

Yes and no. The man in that picture is making a visual statement. Standing up during the anthem doesn't do that, hardly anyone else does more.

 

[Xenliad]

I don't really mind the national anthem, but I find it funny how the question it asks goes over the heads of the mindless sheep who think the answer is "yes."

I don't like the pledge. The only time I say it is when at Republican meetings where I'm trying to utilize Ron Paul's take-over-the-party-strategy, because I'd be kicked out otherwise. I leave out the "one nation" and "indivisible" garbage and put a heavy emphasis on "under God."

 

[Wooden Indian]

My niece had her HS graduation ceremony last year and they didn't only pledge and sing the anthem, but started it with a 10 minute "We couldn't be here celebrating these young people's accomplishments without our troops overseas defending our freedumbs" bit.

Wife, daughter, and I, all sat quietly while the auditorium stood and gave their praise to the U.S for all they have. Afterwards, an older woman and man behind us had something to say. I think she called us disgusting or disrespectful, or rude. Honestly, don't recall exactly. I didn't let on that I heard, only leaned in towards my wife's ear and said, "Can you believe people applaud the murder of children in Iraq while celebrating our children's future?" just loud enough for them to hear if they were to be eavesdropping (which I knew they were).

Nothing else was said by either party. I figure they ranted afterwards, and told their friends and family about the disgusting ant-patriot family, but I hope, at some deeper level, a seed was planted. I hope.

 

[erowe1]

uh.. you must not of read my entire post because I addressed both those points.

Thanks. I did kind of read it. But it's a big block of text (at least by forum standards), and I accidentally skipped over what you said about indivisible.

I still want to know what you mean by "republic" though. As I see it, the word "republic" either refers to a bad thing, or something that has never existed.

 

[erowe1]

uh.. you must not of read my entire post because I addressed both those points.

Thanks. I did kind of read it. But it's a big block of text (at least by forum standards), and I accidentally skipped over what you said about indivisible.

I still want to know what you mean by "republic" though. As I see it, the word "republic" either refers to a bad thing, or something that has never existed.

 

[TN_VOL]

I just stand but I don't cross my heart or say the pledge, as a Christian I don't believe we should.

Matthew 5:33-37 “Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great king. Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ {or} ‘No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.”

James 5:12 But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment.

 

[pcosmar]

Yes and no. The man in that picture is making a visual statement. Standing up during the anthem doesn't do that, hardly anyone else does more.

August Landmesser
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Landmesser

That photo is currently my desktop background.

 

[staerker]

My niece had her HS graduation ceremony last year and they didn't only pledge and sing the anthem, but started it with a 10 minute "We couldn't be here celebrating these young people's accomplishments without our troops overseas defending our freedumbs" bit.

Wife, daughter, and I, all sat quietly while the auditorium stood and gave their praise to the U.S for all they have. Afterwards, an older woman and man behind us had something to say. I think she called us disgusting or disrespectful, or rude. Honestly, don't recall exactly. I didn't let on that I heard, only leaned in towards my wife's ear and said, "Can you believe people applaud the murder of children in Iraq while celebrating our children's future?" just loud enough for them to hear if they were to be eavesdropping (which I knew they were).

Nothing else was said by either party. I figure they ranted afterwards, and told their friends and family about the disgusting ant-patriot family, but I hope, at some deeper level, a seed was planted. I hope.

Perfect. That's what I want. Not necessarily the ridicule, but recognition that I am intentionally not participating (not to cause a scene or make a political statement, but a religious one, before God) I want to set myself completely apart, unashamedly.

 

[Ronin Truth]

Perfect. That's what I want. Not necessarily the ridicule, but recognition that I am intentionally not participating (not to cause a scene or make a political statement, but a religious one, before God) I want to set myself completely apart, unashamedly.

Be sure to make that point clear to the statist thugs that come to beat the crap out of you.

 

[asurfaholic]

So here's my dilemma - in my daughters Awanas program at church the pledge both the US flag and Christian flag, which bothers me to no end. The few people i mentioned it to had very negative reactions to me opposing it and one even told me maybe i should leave the country.

I'm not trying to be confrontational or sound kooky, but I am not sure how to proceed. I don't want to pull riley out of the class because its a great environment otherwise but this is a major issue to me.

 

[CaptUSA]

When the National Anthem gets you down, remember this verse that was added by Oliver Wendell Holmes (the poet, not the SC Justice):

When our land is illumined with liberty's smile,
If a foe from within strikes a blow at her glory,
Down, down with the traitor that tries to defile
The flag of the stars, and the page of her story!
By the millions unchained,
Who their birthright have gained
We will keep her bright blazon forever unstained;
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave,
While the land of the free is the home of the brave.

That's the one that can get me to stand.

 

[bunklocoempire]

Just do what I do, stand and recite this instead:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

+rep

Amen. I've always thought a stadium/other full of folks speaking this would be pretty cool.

Bring some copies and give them to the people giving you dirty looks for not reciting the "vague pledge". Put the zap on their brain. Patriotic? Here, read this friend and be really patriotic.

No? Too patriotic for you? I didn't think so. Remember, it always helps if the person you're helping thinks it was their idea.

 

[Christian Liberty]

So here's my dilemma - in my daughters Awanas program at church the pledge both the US flag and Christian flag, which bothers me to no end. The few people i mentioned it to had very negative reactions to me opposing it and one even told me maybe i should leave the country.

I'm not trying to be confrontational or sound kooky, but I am not sure how to proceed. I don't want to pull riley out of the class because its a great environment otherwise but this is a major issue to me.

It bugs me too. I've told my parents I wouldn't send a future child of mine to our church's children's program because I would not have them encouraged to pledge allegiance to the flag. They think I'm a little crazy, but they do at least get it. They are far from hardcore nationalists.

My niece had her HS graduation ceremony last year and they didn't only pledge and sing the anthem, but started it with a 10 minute "We couldn't be here celebrating these young people's accomplishments without our troops overseas defending our freedumbs" bit.

Wife, daughter, and I, all sat quietly while the auditorium stood and gave their praise to the U.S for all they have. Afterwards, an older woman and man behind us had something to say. I think she called us disgusting or disrespectful, or rude. Honestly, don't recall exactly. I didn't let on that I heard, only leaned in towards my wife's ear and said, "Can you believe people applaud the murder of children in Iraq while celebrating our children's future?" just loud enough for them to hear if they were to be eavesdropping (which I knew they were).

Nothing else was said by either party. I figure they ranted afterwards, and told their friends and family about the disgusting ant-patriot family, but I hope, at some deeper level, a seed was planted. I hope.

Good for you. Both on the fact that you did this, and on finding a wife who actually agrees with you on the point. I hope I am so lucky at some point.

Thanks. I did kind of read it. But it's a big block of text (at least by forum standards), and I accidentally skipped over what you said about indivisible.

I still want to know what you mean by "republic" though. As I see it, the word "republic" either refers to a bad thing, or something that has never existed.

 

[staerker]

So here's my dilemma - in my daughters Awanas program at church the pledge both the US flag and Christian flag, which bothers me to no end. The few people i mentioned it to had very negative reactions to me opposing it and one even told me maybe i should leave the country.

I'm not trying to be confrontational or sound kooky, but I am not sure how to proceed. I don't want to pull riley out of the class because its a great environment otherwise but this is a major issue to me.

Yup! I was raised in that program. I think it is a remnant from when they were trying to mimic the boy scouts. Odd, it just seems out of place.

I don't see the harm in showing up three minutes late?

 

[Lucille]

That's a great idea, AF!

Just got this email from Sovereign Man (Simon Black):

What Hitler and the Nazis copied from America
http://www.sovereignman.com/trends/what-hitler-and-the-nazis-copied-from-america-15217/

If you grew up in the United States, you likely started your day off with your hand over your heart proclaiming your fealty to your nation—whatever that was—and the piece of tri-colored cloth by which it was represented.

Before you could understand what any of the words in the Pledge of Allegiance meant, you knew them by heart.

That was exactly the point.

Which is why on October 12, 1892 the Pledge of Allegiance was made compulsory for all students in public schools.

Aiming to instill patriotism and obedience in children early on, Francis Bellamy, the socialist minister who penned the Pledge, made sure to keep it brief and with good cadence so it would be easily memorized.

Children across the nation recite it every morning:

“I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

Even into adulthood, once you could begin to understand the meaning of the words you were saying, there was to be no room for debate.

“Liberty and justice for all”? Who could possibly claim to object to that? Which is exactly what Bellamy wanted.

But in reality, how many people even as adults actually think about what those words mean.

The original Pledge was accompanied by ‘the Bellamy salute’, which was dropped during WWII because the Nazis started using it (they copied the United States’ tactics to instill national pride and obedience).

The Nazi salute and the indoctrination of children? Yep, that was the US’s idea first.

Thus, the same blind obedience given to those in uniforms is also given to actions commanded under the name of the American flag.

Just the same, this can lead some to forget all morality and common sense to willingly harm other human beings, whether they be across the planet or within the country itself.

With enough indoctrination, all it takes is a piece of cloth and a few words.