Must Libertarians Believe in Open Borders?

[erowe1]

When has anarchy led to Liberty? How did that work out well in any nation since oh I do not know..Rome? The French Revolution, Spain, Russia, China, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cuba, Mexico, How is Liberty in the middle East?

None of those are examples of anarchy. All of them followed your left-wing closed border policies.

 

[erowe1]

No, you are a person that can not understand self interest and how it is illogical to work against your own, mass immigration is against our interests

Why do you say "our interests," as if my interests have to be the same as yours?

How about you pursue what you think your interests are, and you don't interfere with me pursuing what I think my interests are. If I want to hire a so-called illegal immigrant to work for me, you have no right to get involved in any way.

 

[otherone]

When has anarchy led to Liberty?

It occurs to me that you are somewhat new here, and to have a better understanding of your argument, I'd like to know how you define "liberty".

 

[AmericanSpartan]

What's the difference? If we have the right to cross state lines, why should national borders be treated any differently?

Those are states within a nation. Because different nations of different people, with different cultures and different political values and some are just superiority to others, those that are superiority should not be brought down by those that are inferior.

Not all people, ideals, values, and politics are conducive to Liberty.

 

[otherone]

Those are states within a nation. Because different nations of different people, with different cultures and different political values and some are just superiority to others, those that are superiority should not be brought down by those that are inferior.

Not all people, ideals, values, and politics are conducive to Liberty.

It's ironic that a xenophobe has taken as his screen name a swarthy-skinned people that invaded a fair-skinned one.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

None of those are examples of anarchy. All of them followed your left-wing closed border policies.

So does Switzerland, yet a peaceful nation. You understand leftist are for open border as they can import future welfare voters, collapse the system and reboot with millions of voters with no loyalty to the nation, culture, and people right?

Why do you say "our interests," as if my interests have to be the same as yours?

How about you pursue what you think your interests are, and you don't interfere with me pursuing what I think my interests are. If I want to hire a so-called illegal immigrant to work for me, you have no right to get involved in any way.

Do you value having a say? Do you value not having your wealth/property stolen at a faster and faster right?

Do you value not being a made a minority in your own nation, your culture displace, subverted or destroyed?

Do you value having self determination over your future/nation, culture, etc?

Do you value not being stripped of the few rights/freedoms you have left?

Seeing how they are using roads, hospitals, services that they and their kids use that we,I pay for as do most Americans, we do get a say, and we say no way.

It occurs to me that you are somewhat new here, and to have a better understanding of your argument, I'd like to know how you define "liberty".

The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Those are states within a nation. Because different nations of different people, with different cultures and different political values and some are just superiority to others, those that are superiority should not be brought down by those that are inferior.

Not all people, ideals, values, and politics are conducive to Liberty.

The people in some states are less conducive to liberty than people from other states. Therefore, travel must be restricted, and people must be deported.

 

[Cabal]

You were aware when people immigrate they tend to you know, move to another nation?

Again, who said anything about importing anyone?

Once again you have not given any ideas so until you do you have less then no right to call out anyone for their ideas.

This is the first time you've made such a criticism of me in this exchange. "Once again" doesn't apply. You're not the greatest with words, and their meaning, are you?

Also, I have every right to call you out on your flagrant promotion of State violence and State property rights. What do you know about rights, anyway? You think the State has property rights, and the right to initiate violence. Your understanding of rights is clearly, and unfortunately quite lacking.

Do you see the state having any role in society? Yes or no? If no then you are an anarchist.

Of course the State has no legitimate role in society. The only way the State could ever conceivably have a legitimate role in society is when it has achieved universal, unanimous consent from those it would mean to govern.

So what if I'm an anarchist? That doesn't make your promotion of State violence and property rights any more compatible with liberty.

 

[erowe1]

You understand leftist are for open border

No. Open borders is a libertarian position. Leftists have always been for closed borders.

Do you value having a say?

Over what other people do with their own property? No. I have no right to have a say in that. And they don't have a right to have a say over what I do with mine.

Do you value not having your wealth/property stolen at a faster and faster right?

Yes. That's why I oppose laws that entail the state effectively taking over my property by telling me who I may or may not allow onto it.

Do you value not being a made a minority in your own nation

No. Not one bit. I am an individual, just like you are. And the individual will always be a minority in any nation.

your culture displace, subverted or destroyed?

How? The fact that someone else wants to eat a taco doesn't keep me from eating a hamburger. My culture will survive for as long as I choose to observe it. So will yours. You need to disabuse yourself of this left-wing victim mentality you have.

Do you value having self determination over your future/nation, culture, etc?

Yes. Ergo, the state must not be permitted to regulate culture.

Do you value not being stripped of the few rights/freedoms you have left?

Yes. That's why I oppose your continual insistence on stripping me of these rights.

Seeing how they are using roads, hospitals, services that they and their kids use that we,I pay for as do most Americans, we do get a say, and we say no way.

No we don't. You might. But we don't. You worry about yourself and leave the rest of us alone.

Illegal immigrants pay for those services just as much as natural born citizens do. Some of them don't. And some citizens don't (you in particular I'm guessing). None of those things should be paid for by taxes. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with immigration.

 

[Sola_Fide]

No, you are a person that can not understand self interest and how it is illogical to work against your own, mass immigration is against our interests as it imports tens of millions of people that will support leftist ideals/politics and will reshape our demographics as to insure we never have any real power.

If you can not understand this it is your problem and all the name call and cries of "racist" or "Marxist" does not change it.

Cucknservativism and Libertardism are done, if Liberty is to survival we will restore sanity, and we are not going to do i nicely as doing things nicely got us into the situation that we are in.

No?

You just said:

1. some people are more free than others
2. people get rights from government

You are a MARXIST. Those are MARXIST ideas. You do not, in any way, support liberty or freedom.

You are one of those useless numbskulls who globs on to state-generated slogans, never understanding your own slavery.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

It's ironic that a xenophobe has taken as his screen name a swarthy-skinned people that invaded a fair-skinned one.

No, not wanting to be replaced and your nation/culture/Liberty Destroyed is not "xenophobic" its call self preservation sorry if you can not understand that some people, cultures, values, and political views are not conducive to Liberty.

 

[Cabal]

When has anarchy led to Liberty? How did that work out well in any nation since oh I do not know..Rome? The French Revolution, Spain, Russia, China, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cuba, Mexico, How is Liberty in the middle East?

 

[AmericanSpartan]

The people in some states are less conducive to liberty than people from other states. Therefore, travel must be restricted, and people must be deported.

Yeah, that 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th Amendment makes that no possible.

But I total see the reasoning as people from the North East/Commieforina always spread their sickness else where.

 

[Sola_Fide]

No, you are a person that can not understand self interest and how it is illogical to work against your own, mass immigration is against our interests as it imports tens of millions of people that will support leftist ideals/politics and will reshape our demographics as to insure we never have any real power.

If you can not understand this it is your problem and all the name call and cries of "racist" or "Marxist" does not change it.

Cucknservativism and Libertardism are done, if Liberty is to survival we will restore sanity, and we are not going to do i nicely as doing things nicely got us into the situation that we are in.

No?

Well, you just said:

1. some people are more free than others
2. people get rights from government

You are a MARXIST. Those are MARXIST ideas. You do not, in any way, support liberty or freedom.

You are one of those useless numbskulls who glombs on to state-generated slogans, never understanding your own slavery.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Yeah, that 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th Amendment makes that no possible.

But I total see the reasoning as people from the North East/Commieforina always spread their sickness else where.

Are ideas physical things that remain in a person's skull in their own location? Or are ideas immaterial things that do not stay inside a person's body?

And if the ideas do float around, why are we freedom-loving Kentuckians allowed to see, hear or read the ideas from these Commifornians? Shouldn't their press and publications be monitored and censored to protect the rest of us white patriots?

 

[erowe1]

Yeah, that 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th Amendment makes that no possible.

Why would some spots of ink on paper make it impossible?

 

[LibertyEagle]

No. Open borders is a libertarian position. Leftists have always been for closed borders.

Leftists are for open borders. You're with Pelosi and McCain. Enjoy.

 

[LibertyEagle]

We've already been through this, but you are simply not sophisticated enough to make a consistent argument. Are people in Europe less free than Americans? Is a libertarian in Canada less free than a Marxist American?

You see, you don't have a philosophy of rights that makes freedom natural to men. You propose rights that are granted by the state. This alone should render you a laughingstock on this board, but sadly this board is bereft of real libertarians nowadays.

You get all this from saying that he believes in national sovereignty and deciding who and how many immigrate to the nation?

Fact is, you don't want a nation, much less national sovereignty. Your ideals are right in keeping with the globalists. You should be ashamed, Sola.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Again, who said anything about importing anyone?



This is the first time you've made such a criticism of me in this exchange. "Once again" doesn't apply. You're not the greatest with words, and their meaning, are you?

Also, I have every right to call you out on your flagrant promotion of State violence and State property rights. What do you know about rights, anyway? You think the State has property rights, and the right to initiate violence. Your understanding of rights is clearly, and unfortunately quite lacking.



Of course the State has no legitimate role in society. The only way the State could ever conceivably have a legitimate role in society is when it has achieved universal, unanimous consent from those it would mean to govern.

So what if I'm an anarchist? That doesn't make your promotion of State violence and property rights any more compatible with liberty.

That is what immigration is, the importation of people, their cultures and their politics, how you open border supporters not understand this is beyond us.

I know they do not exist or are protected when you have majority of people that do not understand them, value you or vote/act to protect them.


You want to take about some perfect solution while the nation burns, I seek to put out the flames and repair damage.

No. Open borders is a libertarian position. Leftists have always been for closed borders.

Yeah, once they have used mass immigration to collapse the nation as to create a police state.

Switzerland has a close border, yet very right leaning.

Over what other people do with their own property? No. I have no right to have a say in that. And they don't have a right to have a say over what I do with mine.

No, I pay, I get a say, and I NOPE.

Deal with it.

Yes. That's why I oppose laws that entail the state effectively taking over my property by telling me who I may or may not allow onto it.

So why not stop the importation of people that overwhelming support a bigger goverment and if given the chance will vote for it as they will out vote you and your interests?

No. Not one bit. I am an individual, just like you are. And the individual will always be a minority in any nation.

Yeah, and this sort of nonsense will not protect your rights from being voted away by imported voter blocs.

Do you want to live in NYC, or the California where you vote nor your rights will never matter? Because that is why that sort of foolishness will get you.

How? The fact that someone else wants to eat a taco doesn't keep me from eating a hamburger. My culture will survive for as long as I choose to observe it. So will yours. You need to disabuse yourself of this left-wing victim mentality you have.

No, you fail to understand that some cultures do not want to nor can co exists as well as the power of bloc voter bases.


Sorry if you can not understand having your nation and countrymen harmed by mass immigration, from crime to terrorism, to demographic tilting is a very real issue.

Yes. Ergo, the state must not be permitted to regulate culture.

No, culture regulates the state, and we are going to use it to protect our interests.

Yes. That's why I oppose your continual insistence on stripping me of these rights.

You do not have the right to aid and abide law breakers not commit treason.

No we don't. You might. But we don't. You worry about yourself and leave the rest of us alone.

[/QUOTE]

No, since your actions effect me I am going to watch what your side does and stop it when its asshatery effects me.

No?

You just said:

1. some people are more free than others
2. people get rights from government

You are a MARXIST. Those are MARXIST ideas. You do not, in any way, support liberty or freedom.

You are one of those useless numbskulls who globs on to state-generated slogans, never understanding your own slavery.

Never said the latter, you clearly are not capable of understanding what I mean when talking about the 1st.

You always scream "Marxist" as if that make so, it does not.

Yes, I have no idea about slavery but you support importing people that will vote away your rights, freedom, wealth, and future.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Those are states within a nation. Because different nations of different people, with different cultures and different political values and some are just superiority to others, those that are superiority should not be brought down by those that are inferior.

Not all people, ideals, values, and politics are conducive to Liberty.

Fact is, each nation should be able to decide who they want to immigrate to their country. In the U.S., we were very picky until 1965 when Teddy Kennedy opened the floodgates to people in nations we previously did not allow immigrants from.