Rockwell: The Market Absurdity of Open Borders

[PAF]

And you will never move towards no state or a minimal state if you allow every big statist in the world to waltz across your borders.

When the whole world is libertarian you can talk to me about open borders.

You sound just like the person I was speaking with concerning the 2nd Amendment. She said when the whole world is crime and murder-free then you can talk to me about the right to own guns.

Of course, you will rationalize/politicize why I should have my right to travel freely restricted the same that she does concerning guns. I don't buy either of your bologna.

I have also noticed that you have avoided mentioning/rejecting the Federally-funded Nationalized Stop-and-Frisk that Trump openly wants to roll out in his second term.

 

[ClaytonB]

And you will never move towards no state or a minimal state if you allow every big statist in the world to waltz across your borders.

When the whole world is libertarian you can talk to me about open borders.

It's just a false-dichotomy. If you own a very large ranch and you can successfully defend its extents through self-produced or private security, local law-enforcement, local political cover, and so on, then you are effectively sovereign no matter how much DC seethes about it. Many American families have been quietly following this model of de facto sovereignty for generations. It is anti-State and libertarian to the core, no matter what label they apply to themselves.

The whole world has only ever been an anarchy. Some were just better at playing The Game. We usually call them emperors, conquerors, dictators, etc. "The State" is just a comfortable illusion, a bedtime story people tell themselves so they can feel like "____ can't happen here because we have a State", where _____ could be war, terrorism, running violence in the streets, etc. It is just an illusion and was never anything other than an illusion. The sooner that "realist conservatives" wake up and start dealing with reality instead of willingly having the wool pulled over their eyes by Clown World, the better for all of us. The illusion of The State can't be defeated by pretending harder...

 

[PAF]

That deserves a re-post of the entire article.

[MENTION=40029]PAF[/MENTION]

See my Post #41 , and [MENTION=35009]ClaytonB[/MENTION] responses above.

 

[ClaytonB]

"...the real problem is not open borders but the welfare state itself."

Just zeroing in on this, for a moment. This is an obvious false-dichotomy. The problem is both open borders and the welfare state. The two go hand-in-hand. When you don't have a welfare-state, you don't have people trying to climb over the fence. Without a welfare-state, immigrants may still desire to enter your country if it is prosperous but, since they are seeking lawful employment, they will not even try to climb over the fence. But if you're just coming here for the free stuff, why bother with legal entry? Enter by hook or by crook. The fact that the neoCON/RINO establishment will not even discuss the welfare-state shows that they have absolutely and totally capitulated this issue to the Left and all the saber-rattling about "tEh BoRdEr" is just empty bluster and machismo whose purpose is to placate the few on the Right who have not yet completely buried their heads in the sand. I'm not saying Trump is insincere, and I'm not saying a wall is a bad idea. But if they're just building a wall so we don't have to argue over the actual issue (the omnipotent warfare-welfare-State), then what's the point? Instead of meeting the enemy in the center of the battlefield, we have been diverted to some side-issue, yet again. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of strategic jiu-jitsu when it's appropriate. "Win by yielding" is often the most powerful strategy. But when the only thing you're doing is yielding, then there is no intention to win at all and those who keep telling us "Just yield, this is not the hill to die on" for every hill are just turncoats and traitors. If there is no hill worth dying on, then we are no longer men and the trans-Agenda forcibly converting "men" into their true female form is not wrong...

 

[Invisible Man]

When you don't have a welfare-state, you don't have people trying to climb over the fence.

I don't buy this. There are plenty of reasons people immigrate, legally and illegally, aside from wanting welfare. In fact, I think there's a good chance that eliminating the welfare state would transform the US in ways that would make it a more attractive place to immigrate for very many people, rather than less.

 

[Invisible Man]

I have also noticed that you have avoided mentioning/rejecting the Federally-funded Nationalized Stop-and-Frisk that Trump openly wants to roll out in his second term.

This is an underappreciated aspect to the illegal immigration debate.

Any serious attempt to control immigration will always require subjecting everyone within the borders to ongoing enforcement methods. Just trying to stop border crossers at the border (whether it be with a wall, the military, or anything else) will never be sufficient, or even the most effective tool for the immigration restrictionists.

 

[Snowball]

I remember as a child in the 1970s going to Mexico. It was so anti climatic. Were were at a border town in California (I don't remember the name) and we just walked across into Mexico. My parents bought a guitar pinata that we later used for my birthday. There was no wall, no fence, no checkpoint. And...during the 1970s, illegal immigration was low. Sometime in the 1980s it suddenly became a problem. Why? I'm not sure.

CIA regime change ops and drug running.

 

[Snowball]

I don't buy this. There are plenty of reasons people immigrate, legally and illegally, aside from wanting welfare. In fact, I think there's a good chance that eliminating the welfare state would transform the US in ways that would make it a more attractive place to immigrate for very many people, rather than less.

Ok, let's test that theory. LOL. The Euros and Canadians don't come here anymore because they adopted social welfare states.
They have superior safety nets and social contracts (it's getting close now, though...) to US. The only ones coming are third world and regime change victims, or sanctions victims, or cultural fan boys and fan girls who embrace the welfare. Even the hardworking ones use welfare. Man works, wife collects.

The theory can never be tested. US would have civil disobedience on a cosmic scale with uncontrollable chaos if we ever abandoned welfare.

Capitalism made it necessary because capitalism is perverted and anti-natural law, and socialism is the good cop treat from the same elites who stole the capital. This is what too few understand. Schumpeter, Weber, Beard, Fritsch, and more.. they said it would happen. They knew the deal. It's a literal conspiracy, to turn capitalism into socialism and then tyranny was child's play. By hogging up the two sides of the Judeo-Masonic dichotomy, they fooled the dumb electorates, and murdered anyone like JFK who knew what they were doing.

 

[ClaytonB]

I don't buy this. There are plenty of reasons people immigrate, legally and illegally, aside from wanting welfare. In fact, I think there's a good chance that eliminating the welfare state would transform the US in ways that would make it a more attractive place to immigrate for very many people, rather than less.

Way to completely miss the point. "Climbing over the fence" means coming here illegally. People who want to come here to work because of better jobs/pay are eager to follow all legal procedures because they don't want to get revoked later on due to even a minor paperwork mistake. Overseas, people pay good money to immigration consultants to help them fill out all the legal immigration forms correctly and completely for this very reason. They want to be sure they have the best chance of immigrating legally and staying on a pathway to citizenship once they get here.

People who want handouts don't care about any of that because the handouts are mainly based on children and so anyone who can sire children can live on the dole. American men are no longer willing to seed American women for a host of (quite valid) reasons. Foreigners are more than happy to come here and do the honors in our place, and get paid to sit on the couch and collect welfare checks for the children they breed here. If you think this is not demographic warfare, you are so clued out that I don't know what to say to help you...

 

[acptulsa]

And you will never move towards no state or a minimal state if you allow every big statist in the world to waltz across your borders.

When the whole world is libertarian you can talk to me about open borders.

Um, like, imported criminals aren't exactly statists. As in, like, statists are copsuckers. Criminals? Not so much.

The statists are kind of the people using your taxes to import criminals so Trump can use stop and frisk as a selling point to a bunch of Constitutionalists hypocrites.

 

[jmdrake]

CIA regime change ops and drug running.

You are of course correct.

 

[Invisible Man]

The Euros and Canadians don't come here anymore because they adopted social welfare states.

Some still do. But if the number has decreased, I doubt that's the reason.

They have superior safety nets and social contracts (it's getting close now, though...) to US.

Superior? I take it you think these things actually improve those countries?

I think your observation that it's getting close now in the US is germane. The increase of government intervention in the market in the US has made the US less appealing to immigrants from other first world basically capitalist countries. The places that have the most people desperate to come here are the communist countries that have been more ravaged by big government than we have been yet.

 

[Invisible Man]

Way to completely miss the point. "Climbing over the fence" means coming here illegally.

In the very quote that you're replying to I said "legally and illegally."

People who want to come here to work because of better jobs/pay are eager to follow all legal procedures

Very often this is not the case. Very often there is no legal path available for them to come here. Most illegal immigrants would come here legally if they could. They resort to coming illegally because our laws have made it impossible for them to come legally even if they are coming here to work.

 

[ClaytonB]

In the very quote that you're replying to I said "legally and illegally."

That proves my point. Go back and carefully work out why that's the case and you'll get it.

Very often this is not the case.

Then there is a simple solution: increase legal immigration quotas.

Once again, this was never an issue until it became politicized. Prior to the rise of the "amnesty" narrative, there were plenty of people who wanted to immigrate to the US to work (not just collect handouts) and they were able to. In the last 40+ years, the entire US economy has been gutted and shipped overseas, not for "profits" as claimed by the Marxist narrative, but just in order to destroy this once-powerful country which was a virtually unassailable bastion of the Gospel. In its place, they have built a circus of welfare-handouts and pretend-jobs. This isn't about race, it's not about economic theories, it's not even about political ideology: it's about the Gospel.

 

[Invisible Man]

Then there is a simple solution: increase legal immigration quotas.

Absolutely. Or better yet, remove them completely. This would instantly solve the alleged illegal immigration problem.

 

[ClaytonB]

Absolutely. Or better yet, remove them completely. This would instantly solve the alleged illegal immigration problem.

Well, that's just stupidity because then every country in the world would be incentivized to export all prisoners/insane/etc. here, which is exactly what is happening currently as a result of willful non-enforcement of border law. It is perfectly reasonable to have a border and to exclude undesirables from other countries. We have enough undesirables here, we should not have to carry the burden of every other country in the world, also.

 

[Swordsmyth]

You sound just like the person I was speaking with concerning the 2nd Amendment. She said when the whole world is crime and murder-free then you can talk to me about the right to own guns.

Of course, you will rationalize/politicize why I should have my right to travel freely restricted the same that she does concerning guns. I don't buy either of your bologna.

I have also noticed that you have avoided mentioning/rejecting the Federally-funded Nationalized Stop-and-Frisk that Trump openly wants to roll out in his second term.

Immigration is not a right.
Guns and self defense are.
Territorial defense is a natural right.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Um, like, imported criminals aren't exactly statists. As in, like, statists are copsuckers. Criminals? Not so much.

They absolutely are statists, they just are also criminals.
They supported big government in their own countries and support it when they come here.
Like all leftists they want tyranny for others and anarchy for themselves.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Then there is a simple solution: increase legal immigration quotas.

That is what began the decline of liberty in the country.

The simple solution is to stop illegal immigration, freeze and later open legal immigration at Coolidge levels or below from only compatible cultures, and throw out all the illegals and legal unamericans already here.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Well, that's just stupidity because then every country in the world would be incentivized to export all prisoners/insane/etc. here, which is exactly what is happening currently as a result of willful non-enforcement of border law. It is perfectly reasonable to have a border and to exclude undesirables from other countries. We have enough undesirables here, we should not have to carry the burden of every other country in the world, also.

The agenda of open borders advocates is the destruction of America and liberty, their appeals to anarcho-libertarian utopian theory are just the devil quoting scripture (apocrypha in this case) to his profit.