Middle-class fleeing California invasion.

[Dieseler]

blue collar workers here are usually in the oil field making at least $2000 a week. not many of them fighting for the tractor job.

That to will change soon enough.
Guaranteed.
Man I gotta go, I will bump back through later.

 

[torchbearer]

That to will change soon enough.
Guaranteed.
Man I gotta go, I will bump back through later.

don't you need to take care of something?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Torch, I agree with your points in this thread, but to play devil's advocate-what about "National Security"? What if a terrorist sneaks across the border dressed up as a Mexican and kills a zillion people? thnx.

 

[torchbearer]

Torch, I agree with your points in this thread, but to play devil's advocate-what about "National Security"? What if a terrorist sneaks across the border dressed up as a Mexican and kills a zillion people? thnx.

then you will need to set up a full-proof system complete with trillions of dollars worth of military industrial complex spyware- drones, fences, and even then-
you have all the coast lines and the canadian border.
if you think you can track every single inch of our border. go for it.
just don't spend my money on your impossible quest.

How about we don't fuck with other nations so people don't have a reason to want to fuck with us.
we trade with people. we have peace. no one wants to shot their customer.

edit: oh, it would be cheaper to go with the trading route than with the border fence route/spy drones/border army patrol of an entire border.

 

[torchbearer]

Torch, I agree with your points in this thread, but to play devil's advocate-what about "National Security"? What if a terrorist sneaks across the border dressed up as a Mexican and kills a zillion people? thnx.

i want you to know- statist think i'm an anarchist and anarchist think i'm a statist.
but some anarchist are more statist than some of the statist i know. i don't know how it works out like that sometimes.

 

[Mini-Me]

I think part of the problem here is that we're getting hung up on illegal immigrants vs. legal immigrants, but from an economic standpoint, only the supply of unspecialized labor matters, not the source (aside from the burdensome regulations on "legit" workers compared to off-the-record workers). Also, since we all agree that dismantling the welfare state is the number one step to take in solving the "immigration problem," we can move past that point and pretend, for the sake of discussion, that it's "already done."

In that case, the question is, can a free market economy (without a welfare state) handle a surge of unspecialized labor? What are the consequences of that? I suspect that Dieseler is approaching this from a fundamentally protectionist point of view. I don't really want to get involved in the discussion other than to hopefully help reframe it constructively, but I wanted to point out that it's really just a special case of the question, "What, if anything, does protectionism achieve?" (I'm sure Ron Paul and the Austrians have some things to say about that. )

Granted, we live under different circumstances than the ideal: We do have a welfare state, we do have burdensome regulations that disadvantage "legit" workers, etc. However, in the case of the immigrants in Torchbearer's neck of the woods, the welfare state doesn't seem to be an issue according to him. Even in the case of schools, the moral burden does not fall on unrelated employers anyway, but on the government for extorting the money in the first place, and the illegals for taking advantage of schools others are being forced to pay for. When you narrow things down to Torchbearer's specific situation, aside from the regulations that "above-board" workers/employers must comply with, the issue really does just boil down to free market labor vs. labor protectionism. (Of course, this is ignoring the law too, but I think we're pretty used to having moral and economic discussions here regardless of what the current law says.)

 

[ctnjason]

I just want equal..... i want to walk into an ER and give ZERO or fake information and get FREE treatment. I want my wife to have our baby in the hospital and get ZERO bills. They will even provide us a car seat to usher our asses out of the hospital I want to walk into a grocery store and whip out some pie in the sky card and get free groceries.

For everyone whining about illegals..... its easy. This country provides ZERO incentive not to come. Whos to say history will not repeat itself and 30 years from now we are all trying to go to Canada or elsewhere?

I work in the medical field..... i have many stories that infuriate me. My sister in law and wife both are teachers..... they have stories that will do the same. If someone illegal comes here, NO HANDOUTS PERIOD!!!! NONE!!! ZERO!!!! ZILCH!!!!

I do believe that there ARE NOT jobs americans will not do. If/when theres no more welfare state i guarantee u will see alotta people get off their asses to go pick lettuce.

 

[Dunedain]

I do believe that there ARE NOT jobs americans will not do. If/when theres no more welfare state i guarantee u will see alotta people get off their asses to go pick lettuce.

You never hear "They do the jobs Americans won't do, like plumbing". It's always some not critical task like "picking lettuce". The "jobs that Americans won't do" always seem to be non-critical, easily automated or outsourced. Why can't we just kick them out of the country and buy our lettuce from Mexico or some other country? Why do they have to be pushing out babies into the arms of a doctor working for them for free in order for them to be here to pick lettuce? Doesn't that off-set their utility as a "lettuce picker"?

 

[torchbearer]

You never hear "They do the jobs Americans won't do, like plumbing". It's always some not critical task like "picking lettuce". The "jobs that Americans won't do" always seem to be non-critical, easily automated or outsourced. Why can't we just kick them out of the country and buy our lettuce from Mexico or some other country? Why do they have to be pushing out babies into the arms of a doctor working for them for free in order for them to be here to pick lettuce? Doesn't that off-set their utility as a "lettuce picker"?

a bit over-simplified view of what production is happening. do you really think people are hire mexicans for the hell of it? maybe these farmers are just looking fot spend a few dollars to piss you off?
i promise you, no one is harvesting anything by hand in this state.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Ditto. Also I live in California - the states has its issues (they all do). But there are plenty of people of all races here and we generally get along well.

Very true.

BTW you can also thank "immigrants" for about half the technology you use today that was invented in the US. Indians (from India) and Asians being only a few percentage points of the US population have a huge impact on our tech sector. Google, Apple, Facebook, Cisco - all more than half Asian and Indian. SRI (where the internet was created, despite Al Gore's claims) - same thing. Who knows if we'd have the internet if not for these people.

Sorry, this is pure propaganda and brainwashing. Yes, they are the majority of the people in these industries today. It is based on cheap labor. Those people were not here when the innovation took place.

It's like saying, "the Oakland Raiders are the winningest team in football, and it's due to the players that are on the team today". The owner is the same, but the players and coaches are all different now. The level of capability and success is quite different. The big difference is that the pay of the Raiders players went up, while the pay of the tech workers went down.

 

[DamianTV]

http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/18-12-2009/111232-white_face-0

By 2050, white will be a statistical minority. Only clocking in at 47% of the population, the rest will most likely be of hispanic origin.

 

[Dunedain]

http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/18-12-2009/111232-white_face-0

By 2050, white will be a statistical minority. Only clocking in at 47% of the population, the rest will most likely be of hispanic origin.

This assumes that the U.S. will continue to survive in it's present form. As this post shows, California is pretty much the territory of Mexico racially if not politically in everything but name.

The breaking apart of America along ethnic lines is the only outcome I foresee. Follow white flight to the extreme and see where it leads. What happens when most of the whites in the country move to where this woman went? The whites that embrace other races will eventually interbreed and become absorbed into the 3rd world. The whites that are repelled by multiculturalism and diversity and political correctness, etc will combine somewhere else organically.

 

[Zippyjuan]

If you feel you need to flee from people who are not like you, eventually you find yourself alone in a locked room and you will hold the keys.
In 2006, hispanics were 14.8% of the population.
By 2050 they will still not be the majority. Projections (according to Wiki):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States

Immigration to the United States is what has produced its diverse population of today, and will continue to change its ethnic and racial makeup. A 2008 report from the Census Bureau projects that by 2042, non-Hispanic whites will no longer make up the majority of the population. This is a revision of earlier projections[clarification needed] which projected this demographic change to take place in 2050.

Today, non-Hispanic whites make up about 68% of the population. This is expected to fall to 46% in 2050. The report foresees the Hispanic population rising from 15% today to 30% by 2050. Today African Americans make up 12% of the population, in 2050 they are projected to comprise 15% of the population. Asian Americans make up 5% of the population today and they are expected to make up 9% in 2050. The U.S. has nearly 305 million people today.

The population is projected to reach 400 million by 2039 and 439 million in 2050

Don't worry. You will still outnumber them by 50% in 2050- assuming trends continue. The mixing of people is a global trend- you cannot run away from it.

 

[torchbearer]

If you feel you need to flee from people who are not like you, eventually you find yourself alone in a locked room and you will hold the keys.
In 2006, hispanics were 14.8% of the population.
By 2050 they will still not be the majority. Projections (according to Wiki):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States



Don't worry. You will still outnumber them by 50% in 2050- assuming trends continue. The mixing of people is a global trend- you cannot run away from it.

true. and people feel like i'm being unfair to mention the xenophobes.
this thread is filled with them.

 

[Dunedain]

If you feel you need to flee from people who are not like you, eventually you find yourself alone in a locked room and you will hold the keys.
In 2006, hispanics were 14.8% of the population.
By 2050 they will still not be the majority. Projections (according to Wiki):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States

Most people prefer others like themselves. I've lived and traveled all over the world and this is a universal human principle. I've lived in India, China, Canada, the U.S., Japan and traveled to 10 times that many countries. I've even been to North Korea which, you can be sure, no one on this entire board has done. I've ridden to Tibet in a Landrover that took 40 hours to get to its destination. In my travels I've discovered only western countries have been forced to accept unlimited immigration by globalists like yourself without calling it genocide. No one is flooding Africa with non-African's and giving them special rights and privileges. No one is flooding Korea with non-Koreans, Saudi Arabia with non-Arabs....no, only western countries are supposed to accept the hordes. It's not xenophobia, it's not racism, it's just wrong, and you are a traitor to the U.S.A. for pushing such as position. When it's done to the Tibetians it's called genocide.
The immigration invasion into America is no different.

I should also stated that I prefer diversity. Something that is never achieved by homogenizing cultures.

Don't worry. You will still outnumber them by 50% in 2050- assuming trends continue. The mixing of people is a global trend- you cannot run away from it.

I'm not really concerned about outnumbering anyone. i just don't want a massive immigration invasion to destroy the nation. I'm very happy to be a global minority...it gives one a sense of who they are. We're all global minorities on this board.

 

[BlackTerrel]

Sorry, this is pure propaganda and brainwashing. Yes, they are the majority of the people in these industries today. It is based on cheap labor. Those people were not here when the innovation took place.

It's far from cheap labor. You should see how these guys are compensated. They're simply the best people for the job.

If anything I should think India and these Asian countries should be mad at us for taking their best and brightest and having them create all this value for our industry. You look at all the industries we've lost - tech is one of the few remaining where we still have a competitive advantage. And a big part of that is immigrants.

 

[YumYum]

The only people I have ever had a major problem with is white people. White people seem to be more evil. I don't know why.

 

[Zippyjuan]

No one is flooding Korea with non-Koreans, Saudi Arabia with non-Arabs....no, only western countries are supposed to accept the hordes. It's not xenophobia, it's not racism, it's just wrong, and you are a traitor to the U.S.A. for pushing such as position.

That is because western societies are freer and more open. Since we all came from someplace else ourselves, we are more willing to accept those who also come from someplace else. Are we traitors if we allow others the same chances we or our own ancestors had? Isn't that what America is supposed to be about? The Land Of Opportunity? Freedom to become what you are capable of? Should we have locked the doors to the country back in 1776? Would you even be here if we did? This country's strength and growth came from immigrants. They built the great buildings and monuments. Set up farms and raised food and animals to help feed the nation.

Thomas Jefferson:
http://thomasjefferson.worldhistoryblogs.com/2007/07/18/on-immigration/

In general, Thomas Jefferson was an outspoken advocate of immigration, believing that the right to move from one country to another is granted by nature, not by human laws. He wrote to Albert Gallatin in 1806:

“I hold the right of expatriation to be inherent in every man by the laws of nature, and incapable of being rightfully taken from him even by the united will of every other person in the nation. If the laws have provided no particular mode by which the right of expatriation may be exercised, the individual may do it by any effectual and unequivocal act or declaration.”

Immigration is not one sided. It has good points and bad points- as surely as there are good and bad people. But I believe that on the whole, the good outweighs the bad. I do agree that there should be steps for people to come to this country legally. I also would agree that those here illegally should not be entitled to benefits available to legal residents.

 

[Dunedain]

The only people I have ever had a major problem with is white people. White people seem to be more evil. I don't know why.

So much racism on this board. change the word white to black you'd probably be banned for being a nazi.

Statistically, whites have the lowest crime rates according to FBI statistics. Personally, I've had the same experience as you but I've spent 90% of my social interaction with whites.

 

[revolutionisnow]

Everyone can thank Ted Kennedy for the 1965 open borders immigration policy. Trust government.

"I want to comment on ... what the bill will not do. First, our cities will not be flooded with a million immigrants annually. Under the proposed bill, the present level of immigration remains substantially the same. ..."

Kennedy continued:

"Secondly, the ethnic mix of this country will not be upset. ... Contrary to the charges in some quarters, [this bill] will not inundate America with immigrants from any one country or area. ..."

Kennedy assured:

"Thirdly, the bill will not permit the entry of subversive persons, criminals, illiterates or those with contagious disease. ... As I noted a moment ago, no immigrant visa will be issued to a person who is likely to become a public charge. ..."

Kennedy answered critics of the 1965 immigration bill:

"The charges I have mentioned are highly emotional, irrational and with little foundation in fact. They are out of line with the obligations of responsible citizenship. They breed hate of our heritage. ..."

Kennedy promised:

"The bill will not flood our cities with immigrants. It will not upset the ethnic mix of our society. It will not relax the standards of admission. It will not cause American workers to lose their jobs."

YouTube - Immigration Gumballs (5 min version)