Is Social Security Welfare?

[klamath]

This is the kind of propaganda that we need to defeat.

When the government stops taking money from someone else and giving it to you, that's not an increase of your taxes. It's not taking anything at all from you. It's leaving the money with the people who earned it. Those payments never were yours.

Do you take tax refunds? If you paid those taxes it is gone. Getting a tax refund is getting other peoples money, not yours.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

You appear to feel entitled to the money earned by current workers -- money they could use, many of whom live paycheck to paycheck, partly because you and others take a portion of their paycheck. Your money is long gone, spent on previous retirees.

I just want out of the system. I will not see any of what I pay in, so it is not any more fair for others to get the money I'm paying in now.

It is stealing from the young and poor to give to the old and rich.

As I stated before. We receive about 50K in SS payments, but have a tax liability of 250K. Eliminating those SS checks would in effect mean that I will be sending 50K more to the government each year. That is 50K less that I will spend and invest here in my state. Multiply that by all folks like myself who have done well in their lives and you are potentially talking billions of dollars that will be removed from the economy and given back to the feds

 

[ClydeCoulter]

Why, because the truth bomb blew up in your house?

"I know you are, what am I?" Do you not remember what I responded to?

You were making blantant statement against those that have been stolen from, like saying "She should have screamed louder and kicked him in the nuts, it's her fault she got raped".

 

[ClydeCoulter]

This discussion is like most discussions that deal with our problems here in the U. S. of A. It is too specialized and short sighted.

But you can't disreguard one aspect of freedom from all of the others and then expect to see any light at the end of the tunnel. We the People have been being raped for the past 100 years, slowly, and in every aspect. That is why Ron Paul includes all freedoms, including economic, together and also foreign policy.

 

[loveableteddybear]

"I know you are, what am I?" Do you not remember what I responded to?

You were making blantant statement against those that have been stolen from, like saying "She should have screamed louder and kicked him in the nuts, it's her fault she got raped".

You're an accomplice in raping my wallet as far as I'm concerned. I'd like to see my money back used for killing brown people, but you don't see my crying for it like an entitled baby.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

You're an accomplice in raping my wallet as far as I'm concerned. I'd like to see my money back used for killing brown people, but you don't see my crying for it like an entitled baby.

klamath asked this of someone else, but I think it is germane to ask you the same, "Do you take tax refunds? If you paid those taxes it is gone. Getting a tax refund is getting other peoples money, not yours."

 

[ClydeCoulter]

You're an accomplice in raping my wallet as far as I'm concerned. I'd like to see my money back used for killing brown people, but you don't see my crying for it like an entitled baby.

You might look back at my comments, I already said that I am not on SS, yet. So, like I said, FU.

 

[loveableteddybear]

Sorry, but that sort of lame sophistry does not work on me.

Simply pay as little as you can and don't expect anything of value from the gov't. I'll take a refund but I'm not gonna try get money back from 7 years ago or something.

 

[loveableteddybear]

You might look back at my comments, I already said that I am not on SS, yet. So, like I said, FU.

But you want the SS otto von bismark.

 

[Yieu]

As I stated before. We receive about 50K in SS payments, but have a tax liability of 250K. Eliminating those SS checks would in effect mean that I will be sending 50K more to the government each year. That is 50K less that I will spend and invest here in my state. Multiply that by all folks like myself who have done well in their lives and you are potentially talking billions of dollars that will be removed from the economy and given back to the feds

That is money that was stolen from younger people who work. If they stopped paying the tax, that money most certainly would not be "taken out of the economy". The money would belong to those who earned it, and they would use it.

 

[klamath]

You're an accomplice in raping my wallet as far as I'm concerned. I'd like to see my money back used for killing brown people, but you don't see my crying for it like an entitled baby.

And by that logic you are an accomplice to raping my wallet as well.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

But you want the SS otto von bismark.

Have you entered into any sane conversation with me concerning it? Am I willing to just say, ah, shit, I'm at the bottom of the ponzi scheme so I'll just lay down and be the loser? Are you asking me to take it, laying down? Are you gonna force me to take it laying down?

 

[klamath]

Sorry, but that sort of lame sophistry does not work on me.

Simply pay as little as you can and don't expect anything of value from the gov't. I'll take a refund but I'm not gonna try get money back from 7 years ago or something.

Who appointed you the one to determine when the time limit is up for when you can get your money back? If you paid it into the system YOU don't deserve it BACK! It is NOT YOURS anymore, IT is my taxes you are taking!

 

[ClydeCoulter]

Excelent job PTB, you stole all the wealth and have convinced all of us to accuse one another. It seems, so far, that you will get away, scott free.

 

[LibForestPaul]

Would you be willing though to start the process of ending it? If so, a person who is on Social Security how would you want it to be ended?

Also, what about my right to keep the money I make? I have more of right to the money I earn than someone who just votes for a living. By that I mean I physically had to earn my money by actually doing the work in my opinion trumps your right to take what some elected official promised you.

Ending of Social Security Theft could occur tomorrow, if it were not for the peoples greed and envy. Simply convert SSA benefits into US Treasury bonds. Create a formula to decide how many Treasury bonds each person receives:
Example:
Future years of earning potential (someone near retirement,( or disabilty) receives a larger payout of US Treasury bonds at an earlier time)
Ladder the payouts (bonds mature at different rates)

I am sure somehow this will get turned to "Why should 'rich' people get a payout" so it will never get off the ground."

This does nothing to address the REAL third rail, medicare theft.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

That is money that was stolen from younger people who work. If they stopped paying the tax, that money most certainly would not be "taken out of the economy". The money would belong to those who earned it, and they would use it.

And what about the money stolen from me? For 2012 a total of 250K of my money went to the IRS, that is money that I earned through my investments, annuity and rental properties. The theft is the same regardless of who earned it, when it was earned or how they earned it.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

This does nothing to address the REAL third rail, medicare theft.

Oh that's a whole other can of worms. We cannot opt out of Part A, if we do so we would not only forfeit any future SS payments, but also would have to pay pack the SS payments we have received over the last 10 years.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

Oh that's a whole other can of worms. We cannot opt out of Part A, if we do so we would not only forfeit any future SS payments, but also would have to pay pack the SS payments we have received over the last 10 years.

What? For real? This is nuts, crazy batshit. I had planned on opting out of getting on medicare.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

What? For real? This is nuts, crazy batshit. I had planned on opting out of medicare.

Nope they got you by the balls. So we pay for the medicare through taxation, then we go out an buy a supplemental plan for the gap coverage. My wife handles that stuff, so I am not up on all the details. But it isn't cheap. What makes matters worse is that a lot of seniors also have to pay for long term care insurance. We are well off enough that if one of us had to go into a home it wouldn't wipe us out, and we do have great kids that would gladly take us in if need be. But even short term care can be very expensive for people. Our neighbor (widow) had to have a visiting nurse come in every day for about 2 months when she was healing from surgery, as well as a home health aid to bathe her, etc. Her insurance covered it, but had it not she would have been looking at about 100 bucks per day for the care.

 

[lx43]

I think Paul's proposal to phase it out was a decent one. I'd like to see it privatized for a certain portion of upcoming retirees, along with an opt out option for younger workers. Keep in mind, we paid our SS tax from the first day we worked, so for 46 years I paid the tax, and nearly always paid the maximum since for most of my working life I was a high earner.

The issue is though, that there are a lot of folks my age who depend on it wholly or in part for their survival. The fact that they were taxed on their income for the SS program all those years made it difficult for many to save adequately for retirement. Between the employee and employer it's 15% if I recall. That's a lot of cash that can be saved and invested had not the gov't been funding the ponzi scheme. So pulling the rug out from those people is not just.

And it really is unfair to say that you "physically earn your money" do you think that all of us did not? 46 years of paying that tax, and even today I am still taxed to death. My tax liability for 2012 will be in excess of $200K, so while I do get that small check every month we are paying a ton of our income in taxes. When you think about it, the SS check we get every month, is really just a deduction on the overall tax that we pay, and not that large of a percent to be honest.

Something needs to be done, but we need to do something that gradually phases out the program as people pass on, privatize it for people in the middle and phase it out for younger workers.

Thank you Capt and everyone else for the good discussion.

Social Security/Medicare to me is a discussion over property rights. It started over a 100 years ago when they came (they meaning the evil govt) for our incomes by promising to take only the super rich (a lie everyone then fell for) they now come for all of our incomes, then they came for our gold and in return giving us counterfeit paper, then they came for our businesses who they smothered in tons of regulation, and now they are coming for our guns. Soon after they take our guns they will come for us.

In my opinion Social Security should immediately be taken away from the hands of Congress/given to the people. By that I mean, whoever wants to opt-out of Social Security/Medicare may do so; thereby restoring their property rights to all the FICA taxes that are being taken from them, while at the same time allowing those who want to remain in the system do so. What I would then do for those that want to remain in the system is gradually increase the age of eligibility by 1/4 of year each year so that it will not affect those that are on the system and then probably means test it so that someone superrich like Buffett will not be given any SS and I would cut the offensive budget of the defense department, eliminate foreign aid, and other cuts to help the system remain solvent for as long as possible.

Also another thing I would do is say that if you are of eligibility age I would say that if you choose to not accept SS/Medicare that if you continue to work or want to live off you investment income you may do so and will not be subject to capital gains, FICA taxes, or federal income taxes. This would be another way to have people stay off the system for as long as possible or maybe if their own the system to go back off. That means you wouldn't have to pay the 200K in yearly liability you are now subjected too Capt.

That seem fair enough.