Is Social Security Welfare?

[CaptLouAlbano]

Thank you Capt and everyone else for the good discussion.

Social Security/Medicare to me is a discussion over property rights. It started over a 100 years ago when they came (they meaning the evil govt) for our incomes by promising to take only the super rich (a lie everyone then fell for) they now come for all of our incomes, then they came for our gold and in return giving us counterfeit paper, then they came for our businesses who they smothered in tons of regulation, and now they are coming for our guns. Soon after they take our guns they will come for us.

In my opinion Social Security should immediately be taken away from the hands of Congress/given to the people. By that I mean, whoever wants to opt-out of Social Security/Medicare may do so; thereby restoring their property rights to all the FICA taxes that are being taken from them, while at the same time allowing those who want to remain in the system do so. What I would then do for those that want to remain in the system is gradually increase the age of eligibility by 1/4 of year so that it will not affect those that are on the system and then probably means test it so that someone superrich like Buffett will not be given any SS and I would cut the offensive budget of the defense department, eliminate foreign aid, and other cuts to help the system remain solvent for as long as possible.

I like it, all but the means testing. As I see it, the SS payments I receive just offset the taxes I pay to the IRS. In reality all it does is reduce my rate, which is a good thing.

 

[lx43]

I like it, all but the means testing. As I see it, the SS payments I receive just offset the taxes I pay to the IRS. In reality all it does is reduce my rate, which is a good thing.

I added this to my plan too.


Also another thing I would do is say that if you are of eligibility age I would say that if you choose to not accept SS/Medicare that if you continue to work or want to live off you investment income you may do so and will not be subject to capital gains, FICA taxes, or federal income taxes. This would be another way to have people stay off the system for as long as possible or maybe if their own the system to go back off. That means you wouldn't have to pay the 200K in yearly liability you are now subjected too Capt.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

I added this to my plan too.


Also another thing I would do is say that if you are of eligibility age I would say that if you choose to not accept SS/Medicare that if you continue to work or want to live off you investment income you may do so and will not be subject to capital gains, FICA taxes, or federal income taxes. This would be another way to have people stay off the system for as long as possible or maybe if their own the system to go back off. That means you wouldn't have to pay the 200K in yearly liability you are now subjected too Capt.

I like it, when are you running? You have my vote.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

I added this to my plan too.


Also another thing I would do is say that if you are of eligibility age I would say that if you choose to not accept SS/Medicare that if you continue to work or want to live off you investment income you may do so and will not be subject to capital gains, FICA taxes, or federal income taxes. This would be another way to have people stay off the system for as long as possible or maybe if their own the system to go back off. That means you wouldn't have to pay the 200K in yearly liability you are now subjected too Capt.

We need to negotiate with the states to get rid of property tax once you are a certain age/retired or something, so we can prepare to die in peace.

 

[Yieu]

Means testing would cause it to be used for what you stated earlier was its intended purpose -- to keep old people out of poverty, and end the abuse of the system of having the younger and poorer workers who will see none of the money back subsidizing the old and rich, which was not its intention.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

Means testing would cause it to be used for what you stated earlier was its intended purpose -- to keep old people out of poverty, and end the abuse of the system of having the younger and poorer workers who will see none of the money back subsidizing the old and rich, which was not its intention.

But you still have the issue of the increase in taxes for folks like myself. However you spin it, removal of SS payments is less money in my pocket and more money in the gov't pocket. Granted, I am well off, but you have a lot of people out there of modest income where the SS payments merely offset the taxes they pay on their annuities and investments.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

But you still have the issue of the increase in taxes for folks like myself. However you spin it, removal of SS payments is less money in my pocket and more money in the gov't pocket. Granted, I am well off, but you have a lot of people out there of modest income where the SS payments merely offset the taxes they pay on their annuities and investments.

Income tax is the problem then. No taxes for the retired/aged, to start with, then no income for anyone. Reduce government to it's intended function.

 

[Yieu]

But you still have the issue of the increase in taxes for folks like myself. However you spin it, removal of SS payments is less money in my pocket and more money in the gov't pocket. Granted, I am well off

Then why do you need it? And what is said in this quote is incorrect. The money going into your pocket is the money coming out of the pockets of current workers who may not be as well off, so no, it would not result in more money in the government's pocket. It results in more money in the pockets of those who earned it rather than having the tax taken out of their paycheck.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

Then why do you need it? And what is said in this quote is incorrect. The money going into your pocket is the money coming out of the pockets of current workers who may not be as well off, so no, it would not result in more money in the government's pocket. It results in more money in the pockets of those who earned it rather than having the tax taken out of their paycheck.

The government's pockets get away with his money that he paid in. We can negotiate with him? Like, he doesn't have to pay capitol gains or income tax (since he's retired).

edit: Or, at least reduce his payments by the amount he gives up, for starters.

 

[Yieu]

The government's pockets get away with his money that he paid in.

Some of it, yes, but that is history -- and some if it went to those who were currently receiving SS payments at the time that he was paying in. So it is all gone. It is just a tax, not a savings program. I accept the fact that the same is happening to me right now, and I accept the fact that when I am old enough to retire I will not see a benefit from the program.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

Then why do you need it? And what is said in this quote is incorrect. The money going into your pocket is the money coming out of the pockets of current workers who may not be as well off, so no, it would not result in more money in the government's pocket. It results in more money in the pockets of those who earned it rather than having the tax taken out of their paycheck.

Do you think I take the money and burn it? No I spend it and invest it thus creating work and wealth for others. Maybe that 50K is your job that I created, and without that money in the economy your job is gone.

I'm all for getting rid of the checks, but eliminate some of my taxes so that I break even. Same for the others like me where the SS payments offsets their tax liability.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

Some of it, yes, but that is history -- and some if it went to those who were currently receiving SS payments at the time that he was paying in. So it is all gone. It is just a tax, not a savings program. I accept the fact that the same is happening to me right now, and I accept the fact that when I am old enough to retire I will not see a benefit from the program.

But, he was looking forward to it. We can call the scheme whatever, but there is reality in the minds and actions of those that paid. He planned better or was in a better position than I was/am, but we still both considered it during our lifetimes with how we prepared.

Believe me, I want the youth to not be stolen from either. Let's work this out and find how the theives can pay what they owe.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

But, he was looking forward to it. We can call the scheme whatever, but there is reality in the minds and actions of those that paid. He planned better or was in a better position than I was/am, but we still both considered it during our lifetimes with how we prepared.

I owned businesses my whole life, so yes I did very well for myself. American dream and all that good stuff. But I started out with a regular old job, bought a business and grew from there.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

I owned businesses my whole life, so yes I did very well for myself. American dream and all that good stuff. But I started out with a regular old job, bought a business and grew from there.

And that is to be admired, and taught to the youth.

My parents were so poor that I lost my trumpet when I was in jr. high. I was never introduced to business or how it worked or the advantages to others. So, I pretty well always worked to reach a point to where I could take care of myself, pay what I owed, keep my word. My "American Dream" was a home that I owned, a shope to work on things for people, and paying my own way. But SSI was one thing I had planned on being there, since I had to pay it. I was thinking that if I received it back I could repair things and invent things and then keep myself above water.

I never did understand, when young, how wages and prices could keep going up without harm to everyone. So, I refused to join a union. It didn't make sense. You get paid more so people have to pay more for what you do, so prices go up, then they have to be paid more, so prices go up, etc. etc. etc. How much is enough?

 

[seraphson]

I believe Ponzi Scheme is more accurate. But welfare will do.

As Stefan Molyneux put it to call SS a ponzi schemes is an insult to ponzi schemes. At least you have the freedom to enter or leave a ponzi scheme.

 

[Yieu]

Do you think I take the money and burn it? No I spend it and invest it thus creating work and wealth for others. Maybe that 50K is your job that I created, and without that money in the economy your job is gone.

Are you arguing that you would spend the money, and the young people who worked for that money would not, thus it is better to take the money from them and give it to you?

Personally, I'm for no income tax, and no federal tax at all. But SS is simply a tax. I do not expect to see any of it back, because it is simply a tax. I think it would be just as silly to feel entitled to see all of your income tax you had paid be returned to you. No one expects that, because they understand that it is just a tax. SS is similarly a tax.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

Are you arguing that you would spend the money, and the young people who worked for that money would not, thus it is better to take the money from them and give it to you?

Personally, I'm for no income tax, and no federal tax at all. But SS is simply a tax. I do not expect to see any of it back, because it is simply a tax. I think it would be just as silly to feel entitled to see all of your income tax you had paid be returned to you. No one expects that, because they understand that it is just a tax. SS is similarly a tax.

You know, that's fine and dandy for those that have been educated, somewhat recently, by Ron Paul and others while they were young. It's just a tax...okay, if you have no problem with that then keep paying it? I don't want you to, but....

 

[klamath]

Are you arguing that you would spend the money, and the young people who worked for that money would not, thus it is better to take the money from them and give it to you?

Personally, I'm for no income tax, and no federal tax at all. But SS is simply a tax. I do not expect to see any of it back, because it is simply a tax. I think it would be just as silly to feel entitled to see all of your income tax you had paid be returned to you. No one expects that, because they understand that it is just a tax. SS is similarly a tax.

No, he paid 200 grand in taxes last year. He took nothing from from YOU or young people. How much taxes did you pay last year?

 

[Yieu]

You know, that's fine and dandy for those that have been educated, somewhat recently, by Ron Paul and others while they were young. It's just a tax...okay, if you have no problem with that then keep paying it? I don't want you to, but....

I don't have a choice on whether or not to pay it -- I am required to, until such a time that they allow me to opt out. Until I am allowed to opt out, it is just an additional % on top of the income tax.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

Are you arguing that you would spend the money, and the young people who worked for that money would not, thus it is better to take the money from them and give it to you?

Personally, I'm for no income tax, and no federal tax at all. But SS is simply a tax. I do not expect to see any of it back, because it is simply a tax. I think it would be just as silly to feel entitled to see all of your income tax you had paid be returned to you. No one expects that, because they understand that it is just a tax. SS is similarly a tax.

No, but are you arguing that the government should have 50K more of my income than they do now? Because if, as you suggest, my SS payments disappear that is essentially what is occurring. I am all for finding a way of getting rid of SS, but simply saying folks like myself shouldn't get the payments, is in effect saying that our taxes should go up by that amount. It all comes from the same kitty, whether it is Federal Withholding or FICA it's all the same, just on different lines of your check.