Is Bernie Sanders's message more popular than Ron Paul's?

Single Payer means "Single payer of the bribes"

Its just as bad as the system now except that everyone gets covered. You still get milked for 5 times what any other OECD nation pays for healthcare.

Sanders plan does almost nothing to address the actual fraud and racketeering in the system.
 
Single Payer means "Single payer of the bribes"

Its just as bad as the system now except that everyone gets covered. You still get milked for 5 times what any other OECD nation pays for healthcare.

Sanders plan does almost nothing to address the actual fraud and racketeering in the system.

So we should say "fuck it" and do nothing?
 
Anarchist? No, not at all. I think it would be very difficult to find many in the Bernie camp that see themselves that way. I'm definitely not authoritarian, but I don't believe that you should be able to benefit from the government while not participating. That seems kind of absurd to me. If you buy something, that something got to the store using government funded roads and is safe (or should be) due to government regulation. If you're wronged, you're able to sue using the judicial infrastructure of the government. Anything that you do, even using the internet that you're using now wouldn't be possible without the Department of Defense originally shelling out the cash to figure out how to make it.

Unless one lives on a remote island by themselves, I don't really see how any kind of anarchy would even be plausible.

I never said anything about benefiting without contributing. If you truly are not an authoritarian you are alright by me. Would it not be mutually beneficial for a voluntary government to allow access to and charge for use of roads? By all means I'm not an authoritarian and wouldn't wish to force you to grant me access to your roads, but I have to imagine an agreement could be came to.

Being 'first' to discover some aspect of the natural science of the world does not grant you rights to the individuals who replicate it. Protecting one's infrastructure and allowing only those you choose access to it coincides with being nonauthoratarian, disallowing people from replicating it (by threat or application of force) does not.
 
I never said anything about benefiting without contributing. If you truly are not an authoritarian you are alright by me. Would it not be mutually beneficial for a voluntary government to allow access to and charge for use of roads? By all means I'm not an authoritarian and wouldn't wish to force you to grant me access to your roads, but I have to imagine an agreement could be came to.

But then the poor wouldn't be able to use the roads, and would remain poor because of the inability to travel.
 
He's not. He's a constitutionalist, and believes that the Federal Government definitely has a role.

I really doubt he'd advocate arresting someone for not paying taxes or for not abiding by a law where the only victim is the state. But that is neither here nor there, we are talking about what is right, not what any one individual thinks is right.
 
So we should say "fuck it" and do nothing?

Take the laws that apply to all other industries and remove the magic exemptions from the Medical industry. Poof. Problem solved.

Why is extortion fraud and racketeering legal for doctors but not anyone else? Why is cartel behaviour not prosecuted just because its medicine?

That would reduce medical costs by 80% to where most people could pay cash or find the cash for most things like in any other OECD country.

Then if you do want a real safety net start by buying one hospital in each Congressional district and give out a set amount of free care to all citizens.

It would be better operated as block funding to each state for state hospitals, but whatevs. Model the governance on the British NHS.

Now the really truely poor get actual healthcare without bankrupting the country. It tend to look like, the state will extract a bad tooth, but not give it a root canal. They provide a limited number of hip replacements etc per month.

Everyone else has free market health care that costs 20% of current charges.
 
Here's how Ron Paul tends to compare to some more well-known anarchists.



"I don't like the use of force, I like voluntarism. That's what a free society is supposed to be all about." --Ron Paul

"The most important element of a free society, where individual rights are held in the highest esteem, is the rejection of the initiation of violence." --Ron Paul

"Voluntary means no coercion. So, if you want to change people's habits, or change the world, you should do it by setting examples, and trying to persuade people to do it. You can use force only when somebody uses force against you. So, voluntary use of information and persuading people, I think, is the best way to go no matter what kind of problem you're looking at." --Ron Paul

"I define anarchist society as one where there is no legal possibility for coercive aggression against the person or property of any individual." --Murray Rothbard

“Briefly, the State is that organization in society which attempts to maintain a monopoly of the use of force and violence in a given territorial area; in particular, it is the only organization in society that obtains its revenue not by voluntary contribution or payment for services rendered but by coercion.” --Murray Rothbard

“That no government, so called, can reasonably be trusted, or reasonably be supposed to have honest purposes in view, any longer than it depends wholly upon voluntary support.” --Lysander Spooner

“This brings us to Anarchism, which may be described as the doctrine that all the affairs of men should be managed by individuals or voluntary associations, and that the State should be abolished." --Benjamin Tucker

"If the individual has a right to govern himself, all external government is tyranny. Hence the necessity of abolishing the State." --Benjamin Tucker



"All initiation of force is a violation of someone else's rights, whether initiated by an individual or the State." --Ron Paul

"Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required for self-defense." --Ron Paul

“Libertarianism holds that the only proper role of violence is to defend person and property against violence, that any use of violence that goes beyond such just defense is itself aggressive, unjust, and criminal. Libertarianism, therefore, is a theory which states that everyone should be free of violent invasion, should be free to do as he sees fit, except invade the person or property of another.” --Murray Rothbard

"For everybody has a natural right to defend his own person and property against aggressors, but also to go to the assistance and defence of everybody else, whose person or property is invaded. The natural right of each individual to defend his own person and property against an aggressor, and to go to the assistance and defence of every one else whose person or property is invaded, is a right without which men could not exist on earth." --Lysander Spooner

“A man's natural rights are his own, against the whole world; and any infringement of them is equally a crime; whether committed by one man, or by millions; whether committed by one man, calling himself a robber, or by millions calling themselves a government.” --Lysander Spooner

"Aggression is simply another name for government. Aggression, invasion, government, are interconvertible terms. The essence of government is control, or the attempt to control. He who attempts to control another is a governor, an aggressor, an invader; and the nature of such invasion is not changed, whether it is made by one man upon another man, after the manner of the ordinary criminal, or by one man upon all other men, after the manner of an absolute monarch, or by all other men upon one man, after the manner of a modern democracy." --Benjamin Tucker



"By the use of force, government comes with a gun, they take money from you, and build a highway that incidentally you can use because you don't have any other choices." --Ron Paul

"Who's the government? The government created nothing. The only thing they can do is steal, and rob people with a gun, and forcibly transfer wealth from one person to another." --Ron Paul

"The government, they have nothing. Everything they get and they want to give to someone else, they have to steal it from somebody. That's called taxation. The redistribution of wealth." --Ron Paul

“Taxation is theft, purely and simply even though it is theft on a grand and colossal scale which no acknowledged criminals could hope to match. It is a compulsory seizure of the property of the State’s inhabitants, or subjects.” --Murray Rothbard

“And, indeed, what is the State anyway but organized banditry? What is taxation but theft on a gigantic, unchecked, scale?" --Murray Rothbard

“It would be an instructive exercise for the skeptical reader to try to frame a definition of taxation which does not also include theft. Like the robber, the State demands money at the equivalent of gunpoint; if the taxpayer refuses to pay, his assets are seized by force, and if he should resist such depredation, he will be arrested or shot if he should continue to resist.” --Murray Rothbard

"Every activity of government, from courts to Congress, from sanitation workers to senators, from generals to attorney generals, from presidents to policemen, depends on stolen money." --Carl Watner

“If taxation without consent is not robbery, then any band of robbers have only to declare themselves a government, and all their robberies are legalized.” --Lysander Spooner

"The fact is that the government, like a highwayman, says to a man: Your money, or your life. And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat." --Lysander Spooner



"Governments, by their very nature, notoriously compete with liberty--even when the stated purpose for establishing a particular government is to protect liberty." --Ron Paul

“No man can rightfully be required to join, or support, an association whose protection he does not desire.” --Lysander Spooner

"How is it possible to sanction, under the law of equal liberty, the confiscation of a man's earnings to pay for protection which he has not sought and does not desire? And, if this is an outrage, what name shall we give to such confiscation when the victim is given, instead of bread, a stone, instead of protection, oppression? To force a man to pay for the violation of his own liberty is indeed an addition of insult to injury. But that is exactly what the State is doing." --Benjamin Tucker



"The restraints placed on our government in the Constitution by the Founders did not work." --Ron Paul

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable in achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written." --Ron Paul

"The last few centuries were times when men tried to place constitutional and other limits on the State, only to find that such limits, as with all other attempts, have failed. Of all the numerous forms that governments have taken over the centuries, of all the concepts and institutions that have been tried, none has succeeded in keeping the State in check." --Murray Rothbard

“But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case it is unfit to exist.” --Lysander Spooner
 
I pay roughly $33,000/year in taxes between Federal, State, Medicare, and Social Security. Know what I get out of it? Some crumbling infrastructure. Know what I'd like to get out of it? Free college and healthcare would be a nice start.

That's assuming you'll still be able to make a living under comrade Bernie. Not to mention when something is provided "free" by government quality usually takes a nosedive. Case in point: The public school system we have now being utter dog shit.
 
Taxation isn't robbery. It's the price of civilization. I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a country on this planet that has even half of the standard of living that we have that doesn't have taxes. I guess you could go down and live in the Bahamas, but unless you're a banker or some kind of tour guide, you're probably going to end up pretty poor.

Are income taxes voluntary? Would the state (that you endorse) throw you in a cage if you didn't cough up that $33,000 every year?
 
Are income taxes voluntary? Would the state (that you endorse) throw you in a cage if you didn't cough up that $33,000 every year?

Are you making the case that you should be able to use the infrastructure of a country, paid for by taxes, and participate in an economy that uses said infrastructure, and not have to pay taxes yourself? That seems more like theft to me than taxes.
 
I don't think his message is really more popular at all. He is polling a shit load higher because it's essentially a two person race. Just a different dynamic than Ron Paul had.

If you polled the American public to see how many people support free enterprise over socialism, I think freedom would still prevail. (Or maybe not.... who knows)
 
Are you making the case that you should be able to use the infrastructure of a country, paid for by taxes, and participate in an economy that uses said infrastructure, and not have to pay taxes yourself? That seems more like theft to me than taxes.

There's a user fee already built into every gallon of gas sold. There's no reason why the market couldn't do something similar and produce a better produce. Heck, I could easily envision a larger up-front payment for lifetime access. There's lot of possibilities there. Whereas with government infrastructure you're never out from under their thumb and their hand in your pocket. There was a bridge into New York that was sold to the public as only making people pay a toll to use it until it was paid for, well low and behold years later the state is still collecting fees on it. If you rented to own something in the free market and still got hit with payments AFTER you paid it in full you'd tell that business to take a hike and probably never shop there again. With government's monopoly on infrastructure you don't have that opt out option.

I'm glad to educate you on gas tax, but I specifically asked you about income taxes.
 
There's a user fee already built into every gallon of gas sold. There's no reason why the market couldn't do something similar and produce a better produce. Heck, I could easily envision a larger up-front payment for lifetime access. There's lot of possibilities there. Whereas with government infrastructure you're never out from under their thumb and their hand in your pocket. There was a bridge into New York that was sold to the public as only making people pay a toll to use it until it was paid for, well low and behold years later the state is still collecting fees on it. If you rented to own something in the free market and still got hit with payments AFTER you paid it in full you'd tell that business to take a hike and probably never shop there again. With government's monopoly on infrastructure you don't have that opt out option.

I'm glad to educate you on gas tax, but I specifically asked you about income taxes.

I don't think you could be more condescending if you tried, but that's okay. I forgive you.

Infrastructure doesn't just include roads. It also includes utilities such as water and electric. It also includes phone lines, not to mention the vast satellite network that allows you to have cable and GPS and cell phones. Municipalities and private companies do usually own and pay for a lot of it, but all of it is either subsidized or enabled in some way by the federal government. Even roads and bridges aren't fully funded through the gas tax. Quite a bit of your income taxes go to them too.
 
Are you making the case that you should be able to use the infrastructure of a country, paid for by taxes, and participate in an economy that uses said infrastructure, and not have to pay taxes yourself? That seems more like theft to me than taxes.

I'm wondering if the alternative is Privatize all the roads and we can voluntarily use them? Does that mean tollbooths or Prepass gates everywhere all run by different people?

Suppose in a way what we have now is Single Payer Roads.

I think we can consider different Public or Private solutions to address different issues. I think volunteerism or privatizing some things can lead to confusion where competition is not necessarily helpful

http://jasoncochran.com/blog/when-g...ur-fires-boss-tweed-obamacare-and-big-pharma/

In some cases, order can emerge from individual efforts with out a central authority, but sometimes it can create even more chaos such as this example of private firefighters becoming competing gangs working for private insurance companies.
 
Are you making the case that you should be able to use the infrastructure of a country, paid for by taxes, and participate in an economy that uses said infrastructure, and not have to pay taxes yourself? That seems more like theft to me than taxes.

Everybody pays the infrastructure taxes if they use them, they come from gas and sales taxes primarily. Hard to avoid those. You're not suggesting that people be subject to those taxes and not be able to use what they pay for, I assume.

Personally, I'd be fine without 100% of the things paid for by federal income taxes if I could be exempt. I'll do without the wars and bureaucracies and gun-running to Mexican cartels.
 
Free shit is more popular than freedom. What was truly shocking about Ron Paul's rise was so many people rallied behind the cause of liberty. Bernie's mess is just Hope n' Change 2.0: The Retards Strike Back, and the only consequence from Sanders' campaign would be to get himself a nice book deal
 
Here's how Ron Paul tends to compare to some more well-known anarchists.

Ron Paul was a MinArchist. and in fact taught me what that word meant.

YES! Ron Paul does in fact "tend to compare" to anarchists. :rolleyes: so do I.

our CONstitution was designed for a Federation of existing States. much like the EU.
it was designed as a Constitutional FEDERATION of states. if this were NOT true... then WHY was the Bill of Rights added so much later?
( like almost 3 years later...) :eek:
 
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