"I Don't Want Free Will" by Martin Luther

[Sola_Fide]

Jmdrake,

You say "He died for us while we were still sinners.". Okay. Died for WHO? Who is "us"? Here is the verse:

Romans 5:8-9 NASB

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

So if Jesus died for every single person who ever lived, then that means every single person who ever lived is saved from the wrath of God and justified by His blood.

In other words, the way you misread the verses changes Christianity into universalism, which it isn't.

Jesus only died for His sheep.

 

[jmdrake]

Let's just see if we can follow the verse through.

The first part of the verse is where you get off track.

For God so loved the world.

Simple question. Do you believe God loved the whole world, yes or no? Or do you think God only loved those who would be saved? I you say no I can prove to you from the Bible that you are wrong. If you say yes, well the only straightforward reading of John 3:16 is that God gave His son for the whole world as well. You are trying to interpret John 3:16 and working from the back to the front instead of reading it naturally from the front to the back.

Break it up into clauses.

1) For God so loved the world
2) that He gave His only begotten Son
3) that whosoever believes in Him
4) would not perish but have everlasting life.

No honest and straight forward reading of the passage would have you apply condition of clause 3 to clause 2 or clause 1. The only honest and straight forward reading of the passage is that the condition in clause 3 is a precondition of the result in clause 4.

 

[jmdrake]

Jmdrake,

You say "He died for us while we were still sinners.". Okay. Died for WHO? Who is "us"? Here is the verse:



So if Jesus died for every single person who ever lived, then that means every single person who ever lived is saved from the wrath of God and justified by His blood.

In other words, the way you misread the verses changes Christianity into universalism, which it isn't.

Jesus only died for His sheep.

Wrong. By grace are ye saved through faith. The grace is available to everyone. But only some latch onto that grace through their faith. Jesus died for everyone. But only those who respond to the pleadings of the Holy Spirit are saved. You universalism claim is a cheap straw man.

Still, I see that you made a vain attempt to dodge the point I was actually making. Are you willing to admit yet that the disciples were part of the world before Jesus called them out of the world?

Edit: More nails in the Calvinist coffin.

John 12:47,48
47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Jesus said Himself He came to save the world! Further those who are condemned condemn themselves by rejecting Jesus.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Wrong. By grace are ye saved through faith. The grace is available to everyone. But only some latch onto that grace through their faith. Jesus died for everyone. But only those who respond to the pleadings of the Holy Spirit are saved. You universalism claim is a cheap straw man.

Ephesians 2:8-9
New International Version (NIV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Your interpretation make no sense. You are making the verse say we are saved BY our faith. You are making the verse say that it IS something in ourselves that saves us. But it isn't!

We are not saved BY our faith, but THROUGH our faith. Faith is the passive instrument of justification. We are saved BY GRACE, not by faith.

We are saved by grace. It is a gift. It is "not from ourselves". It is not our faith. It is nothing in us so that none of us can boast. Salvation is wholly from God.

 

[jmdrake]

Your interpretation make no sense. You are making the verse say we are saved BY our faith. You are making the verse say that it IS something in ourselves that saves us. But it isn't!

We are not saved BY our faith, but THROUGH our faith. Faith is the passive instrument of justification. We are saved BY GRACE, not by faith.

We are saved by grace. It is a gift. It is "not from ourselves". It is not our faith. It is nothing in us so that none of us can boast. Salvation is wholly from God.

Sure it's a gift. But a gift does you absolutely no good unless you accept it! That's where faith comes in. I've explained this to you before but you simply don't even attempt to understand it. If I give you a car and you sign the title did you earn the car? No. It's a gift. But without signing the title the car is never yours. If you're a criminal and you are offered a suspended sentence in a plea bargain, did you earn that suspended sentence by coping a plea? No. That's grace. Throwing yourself on the mercy of the court doesn't earn you anything. Boldly approaching the thrown of grace doesn't earn you anything either. But without faith it is impossible to please God because he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. That reward is God's gift of grace. You didn't earn it. But without you actively seeking Him you won't receive it either.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Sure it's a gift. But a gift does you absolutely no good unless you accept it! That's where faith comes in. I've explained this to you before but you simply don't even attempt to understand it. If I give you a car and you sign the title did you earn the car? No. It's a gift. But without signing the title the car is never yours. If you're a criminal and you are offered a suspended sentence in a plea bargain, did you earn that suspended sentence by coping a plea? No. That's grace. Throwing yourself on the mercy of the court doesn't earn you anything. Boldly approaching the thrown of grace doesn't earn you anything either. But without faith it is impossible to please God because he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. That reward is God's gift of grace. You didn't earn it. But without you actively seeking Him you won't receive it either.

Where does faith "come in" in this verse?

Ephesians 2:8-9 New International Version (NIV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

There is NOTHING in this verse which speaks of human effort. In fact Paul goes out of his way to say that faith is not of ourselves. Faith itself is a gift of God's grace.

Where do you get anything about human will from Ephesians 2?

 

[jmdrake]

Where does faith "come in" in this verse?



There is NOTHING in this verse which speaks of human effort. In fact Paul goes out of his way to say that faith is not of ourselves. Faith itself is a gift of God's grace.

Where do you get anything about human will from Ephesians 2?

You don't study the Bible through a single verse. You have to do Bible study by applying one verse to another. Look up this verse that I quoted:

But without faith it is impossible to please God because he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

The human element is in bold.

 

[Sola_Fide]

You don't study the Bible through a single verse. You have to do Bible study by applying one verse to another. Look up this verse that I quoted:

But without faith it is impossible to please God because he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

The human element is in bold.

Ah, so now you jump to Hebrews 11, which is not talking about how a person becomes saved but rather how the giants of the faith in times past lived, you jump there without even understanding that Ephesians 2 tells you where their faith came from.

Hebrews 11 is a chapter that has nothing to do with how one becomes a Christian, but rather how a person who is already a Christian should walk (by faith). And what does Ephesians 2 tell you? That faith itself doesn't come from within, rather it is a gift of God.

The entire letter to the Hebrews was written....to Hebrew Christians, people already confessing faith in Jesus. When you read the letters of the New Testament, you must keep this in mind, especially a book like the book of Hebrews. Also, you should go first to the parts of the Bible which address the issue you are trying to raise. Hebrews 11 is not talking about how a person becomes a Christian or where faith comes from, so therefore it is not related to our discussion. Ephesians 2 explicitly, without question, tells you how a person becomes a Christian and where faith comes from, so therefore it is directly related to what we are talking about.


Where Does Faith Come From?
http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/07/is_faith_the_gift_of_god_what.php

 

[jmdrake]

Ah, so now you jump to Hebrews 11, which is not talking about how a person becomes saved but rather how the giants of the faith in times past lived, you jump there without even understanding that Ephesians 2 tells you where their faith came from.

Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God. (Romans 10:17) Jesus compared those who heard His words and did them to people who built their houses on a rock. He compared those who heard His words and didn't do them to someone who built his house on sand and when the rains came the house washed away. What's the key difference? What the human listener DID with the words!

Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, who built his house on a rock. The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it didn't fall, for it was founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of mine, and doesn't do them will be like a foolish man, who built his house on the sand. The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.

— Matthew 7:24–27

You can dance around the truth all you want, pretend that James 2:14 - 24 doesn't mean what it plainly says, ignore where I clearly laid out that your interpretation of John 3:16 cannot possibly be right etc.

Hebrews 11 is a chapter that has nothing to do with how one becomes a Christian, but rather how a person who is already a Christian should walk (by faith). And what does Ephesians 2 tell you? That faith itself doesn't come from within, rather it is a gift of God.

God gives all Christians a measure of faith. (See Romans 12:10) But eternity is determined by what is done with that faith. I know you believe that no one that has been granted faith can be lost. But that is not what the Bible teaches.

Hebrews 10:38 And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away."

 

[jmdrake]

The first part of the verse is where you get off track.

For God so loved the world.

Simple question. Do you believe God loved the whole world, yes or no? Or do you think God only loved those who would be saved? I you say no I can prove to you from the Bible that you are wrong. If you say yes, well the only straightforward reading of John 3:16 is that God gave His son for the whole world as well. You are trying to interpret John 3:16 and working from the back to the front instead of reading it naturally from the front to the back.

Break it up into clauses.

1) For God so loved the world
2) that He gave His only begotten Son
3) that whosoever believes in Him
4) would not perish but have everlasting life.

No honest and straight forward reading of the passage would have you apply condition of clause 3 to clause 2 or clause 1. The only honest and straight forward reading of the passage is that the condition in clause 3 is a precondition of the result in clause 4.

^No response I see.

 

[Sola_Fide]

^No response I see.

My response is that you never answered my question. My question was:

When you read the above verse, why do you think it says that the Son was given? For what reason was the Son given?

 

[jmdrake]

My response is that you never answered my question. My question was:

I already answered it. I will answer it yet again. Jesus' death served the purpose of offering the gift of salvation to all. But like all gifts, the gift of salvation can be rejected.

 

[Sola_Fide]

I already answered it. I will answer it yet again. Jesus' death served the purpose of offering the gift of salvation to all. But like all gifts, the gift of salvation can be rejected.

Where do you get that from John 3:16?

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Where do you get universality from John 3:16? Doesn't the verse say that the Son is only for the believers to have eternal life?

Why do you make it seem like the verse says that the Son was given so that unbelievers would have eternal life?



The point is: there is particularity even in John 3:16. The Son wasn't given for unbelievers. The Son was given so that the believers would not perish. If the Son had been given to unbelievers, they would not perish, but since they do, the Son wasn't given to them or for them.

 

[Sola_Fide]

I already answered it. I will answer it yet again. Jesus' death served the purpose of offering the gift of salvation to all. But like all gifts, the gift of salvation can be rejected.

And of course there are so many places in the Bible where this view that Jesus only "offered salvation" is completely denied. Jesus did not merely "offer" salvation to anyone, He really and truly SAVED real people. Set aside all of the predestination passages in the Bible...there are still many verses that confirm that Jesus did actually obtain eternal redemption for people, not just merely "offered" it.

Hebrews 9:12

He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

The High Priest made His sacrifice once and for all, and he actually obtained eternal redemption for the ones the sacrifice was made for. Set aside all of the predestination passages which teach that Jesus actually saved real people eternally, this is another passage that Arminianism cannot answer. Jesus doesn't merely "offer" salvation, He actually saves people eternally.

 

[jmdrake]

Where do you get that from John 3:16?

Where did you get limited atonement from John 3:16? You didn't. You simply read it in there. It fits your understanding of other verses. If you would simply open your mind you'd see that other interpretations fit. In my opinion they fit better.

Where do you get universality from John 3:16? Doesn't the verse say that the Son is only for the believers to have eternal life?

Because of your preconditioning you only see two possibilities, universality or limited atonement. You keep ignoring what I'm saying and go back to the false claim that I'm talking about unversality. I'm saying that only believers have eternal life because only believers accept it. But it is offered to all.

Why do you make it seem like the verse says that the Son was given so that unbelievers would have eternal life?

Why do you make it seem like God is limited in His ability to offer free salvation to all and offer free choice to those who chose to accept it?

The point is: there is particularity even in John 3:16. The Son wasn't given for unbelievers.

That's not what John 3:16 says. In fact John 3:17 clears it up. For the Son came not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might by saved. And John 3:18 sends it home if you will open your mind beyond the two possibilities that you allow yourself.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What condemns people is their own unbelief. It's not God who condemns. Man condemns himself. The gift is offered to all. What man chooses to do with the gift is what makes the difference. Jesus explained this over and over again in parable after parable. The sower and the seed. The wedding feast. The servants and the talent. That one should prove what I'm saying to you beyond a doubt. A servant of God received a gift, buried it, then was ultimately punished for what he did.

The Son was given so that the believers would not perish. If the Son had been given to unbelievers, they would not perish, but since they do, the Son wasn't given to them or for them.

Wrong. They perish because of their unbelief and not because the Son was not given for them. A gift does you no good unless you accept it.

 

[low preference guy]

Everyone knows Jesus forced salvation of people. He is a dictator.

 

[jmdrake]

And of course there are so many places in the Bible where this view that Jesus only "offered salvation" is completely denied. Jesus did not merely "offer" salvation to anyone, He really and truly SAVED real people. Set aside all of the predestination passages in the Bible...there are still many verses that confirm that Jesus did actually obtain eternal redemption for people, not just merely "offered" it.

Was the rich young ruler saved? He came to Jesus asking what he needed to do to be saved. The Bible says that Jesus looked on him and loved him. Jesus told him what to do to be saved. But the rich young ruler turned away sorrowfully. He wasn't willing to surrender himself to Jesus. God forces Himself on no one.

Hebrews 9:12

He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Compare to Hebrews 10:26

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

And Hebrews 10:38

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 9:26 does not justify once saved always saved. Someone can "live by faith" but then "draw back". God says then He has "no pleasure" in such a person. Such a person is lost. What Hebrews 9:26 does tell you is that Christ's one death is enough to cover all of your sins. It's enough to cover everybody's sins. It's like a bank account with an infinite amount of money in it. No more deposits need to be made because the supply is endless. But that money does you no good if you refuse to withdraw it.

 

[Miss Annie]

Once I understood what was meant by the concept of Limited Atonement, this passage became clear to me.

2 Timothy 3

King James Version (KJV)

3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Was the rich young ruler saved? He came to Jesus asking what he needed to do to be saved. The Bible says that Jesus looked on him and loved him. Jesus told him what to do to be saved. But the rich young ruler turned away sorrowfully. He wasn't willing to surrender himself to Jesus.

No. I don't fault you for having this surface-level interpretation of this passage...I used to think the same thing as you. But, what was Jesus trying to teach the rich young ruler?

Please read the entirety of the account of the rich young ruler:

Matthew 19:16-26 NIV

Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

"Which ones?" he inquired.

Jesus replied, "'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

After the rich young ruler said that he had followed the commandments, Jesus said "If you want to be PERFECT, go and sell all your possessions". And the rich young ruler went away dismayed.


Jesus was teaching this man (and us) that PERFECT obedience to the Law is the only way to be justified. Jesus taught that rich self-righteous ruler that he was not perfect...so Jesus brought him to the place where he was a law-breaker (he loved his wealth more than God).


When the disciples understood that Jesus was teaching that perfection was the only way to be justified, they asked, "who then can be saved"? And Jesus replied, "WITH MAN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE, BUT WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE".


All those who seek to be right with God by how good they are will fail and be condemned, because no one has the perfection required to stand in the presence of God. A man is saved when he has faith in Christ's perfect righteousness alone. Man's "righteousness" will only condemn him.

This is the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no other gospel other than this.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Everyone knows Jesus forced salvation of people. He is a dictator.

In one sense, Jesus is a dictator. He is the Creator of the universe. He is the source of morality. He is the final authority, etc, etc, etc. But the way you frame the statement is the idea that people are forced beyond their will to go to heaven or hell.

In one sense, I agree. Since man is dead in sin and cannot will any spiritual good, he must be regenerated in order to have the desire to even seek after God. This is an act of force on God's part...and thankfully so, because if God did not regenerate our hearts, none of us would be saved.

But in another sense, it is a mischaracterization. Because no one is "forced" to live their sinful life. People are naturally inclined toward sin and they love their sin. When people sin, they do what comes naturally and they do it willfully.


This is a description of how a person who is dead in sins becomes a Christian (notice that God does all of it). Paul writing to the Christians in Ephesus:

Ephesians 2:1-9 NASB

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

If you are a Christian, it is because God loved you before the world was and while you were His enemy and dead in your sins deserving judgment, He made you alive. It is nothing in yourself, not your works, not your faith, nothing....only by His grace are you saved (so that you cannot boast in anything you've done).