"I Don't Want Free Will" by Martin Luther

[jmdrake]

I have read it in its entirety. And I see how it totally contradicts your surface level understanding of salvation.

Point 1: You limit God's love to the elect. You don't accept God loving "the world".
Point 2: You believe that only those who are pre selected will come to Jesus and that those people are destined to be saved and that only those people are destined to be saved.

The rich young ruler came to Jesus. The Bible says Jesus loved him. If your understanding of election were true than this person was already saved and Jesus should have said to him "You don't have to do anything because you are already saved". Instead Jesus asked him to go beyond what he already did. Now those of us who understand the choice element of salvation by faith get what Jesus was asking him. You are correct that our own righteousness can't save us. Where you err is in your belief that we have no active part in accepting Jesus. Accepting Jesus means accepting everything that comes with following him, the good and the bad. Yes with man by himself salvation is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Not everyone is willing to die to self daily as Paul admonished Christians to do. It's easier to just take comfort in the idea that "I must already be saved". That's the definition of cheap grace. Grace is free, but it isn't cheap.

Look at the parable of the man that was forgiven the great debt, but wouldn't forgive a smaller debt owed to him. That man's debt was already clear, but then it was reinstated because he chose not to forgive someone else! Jesus couldn't be more clear than that. He forgives us without cost just like the debtor in that story. But we refuse to let Him work out His will in our lives, we face the same judgement that debtor faced.

No. I don't fault you for having this surface-level interpretation of this passage...I used to think the same thing as you. But, what was Jesus trying to teach the rich young ruler?

Please read the entirety of the account of the rich young ruler:




After the rich young ruler said that he had followed the commandments, Jesus said "If you want to be PERFECT, go and sell all your possessions". And the rich young ruler went away dismayed.


Jesus was teaching this man (and us) that PERFECT obedience to the Law is the only way to be justified. Jesus taught that rich self-righteous ruler that he was not perfect...so Jesus brought him to the place where he was a law-breaker (he loved his wealth more than God).


When the disciples understood that Jesus was teaching that perfection was the only way to be justified, they asked, "who then can be saved"? And Jesus replied, "WITH MAN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE, BUT WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE".


All those who seek to be right with God by how good they are will fail and be condemned, because no one has the perfection required to stand in the presence of God. A man is saved when he has faith in Christ's perfect righteousness alone. Man's "righteousness" will only condemn him.

This is the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no other gospel other than this.

 

[jmdrake]

If you are a Christian, it is because God loved you before the world was and while you were His enemy and dead in your sins deserving judgment, He made you alive. It is nothing in yourself, not your works, not your faith, nothing....only by His grace are you saved (so that you cannot boast in anything you've done).

Jesus loved the rich young ruler. The Bible is clear about that. But the rich young ruler chose not to follow Jesus. Maybe he did later. But the Bible gives no such impression.

Edit: Another example from Matthew 23:37

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Jesus loved the rich young ruler. The Bible is clear about that. But the rich young ruler chose not to follow Jesus. Maybe he did later. But the Bible gives no such impression.

Edit: Another example from Matthew 23:37

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Just the same verses over and over again. Jmdrake, here's a question about Matthew 23:37:

Why do you assume "gather" means "save"? Especially since the verse is part of a judgement passage?

Think about it.

 

[jmdrake]

Just the same verses over and over again. Jmdrake, here's a question about Matthew 23:37:

Why do you assume "gather" means "save"? Especially since the verse is part of a judgement passage?

Think about it.

I take it you know nothing about hens do you? When a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, it's not for the purpose of eating them. It's for the purpose of saving them. Jesus talked in parables and only those who did not know Him did not understand. It's sad that you cannot understand this simple parable. Get to know Jesus and it will become plain to you.

http://www.lifestream.org/bodylife.php?blid=23

 

[ninepointfive]

We have free will - it's quite obvious

 

[Southron]

We have free will - it's quite obvious

How would you know you have free will?

 

[jmdrake]

How would you know you have free will?

Why do you bother debating the point if you don't?

 

[PierzStyx]

Why do you bother debating the point if you don't?

Better question: How can you bother debating the point if you don't?

Man. Individuals only exist if they have individual agency and intellectual separateness from others. So all this disagreement and arguing means we either all have agency/will or God is insane and arguing with Himself.

 

[PierzStyx]

Jesus loved the rich young ruler. The Bible is clear about that. But the rich young ruler chose not to follow Jesus. Maybe he did later. But the Bible gives no such impression.

Edit: Another example from Matthew 23:37

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

And here is another, Matt. 23:23;

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

This entire chapter really. How can Jesus even justify being angry with the Pharisees (or anyone really) if it was God who was working through them and doing everything, not themselves. After all no personal agency means no ability to act. It was God omitting the weighter matters of the law, breaking His own commandments, not the Pharisees. Instead Jesus makes it plainly clear, "these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." The Pharisees knew better, and should have done better. But they chose not to do so, and faced divine anger at the injustice of it. It was their fault for choosing to be disobedient, for using their agency wrongly.

 

[PierzStyx]

JM, I don't think you can win this at the end of the day. You can't make people choose rightly. Especially when they are so set on being among Jeremiah's "foolish people" who are "without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not." (Jeremiah 5:21) This is a noble effort though and I hope some of those who have read have been enlightened to the truth.

 

[PierzStyx]

We have free will - it's quite obvious

It is obvious. It takes effort, and mental gymnastics to make yourself think otherwise.

 

[Southron]

Why do you bother debating the point if you don't?

I pray and yet I know God already knows what I will pray for.

 

[jmdrake]

I pray and yet I know God already knows what I will pray for.

Not the same. When you pray I don't think you are trying to change God's mind. Debate, by definition, is trying to change the mind of the other person. Now the typical Calvinist response is "Well God's using me to carry out His will". That's pretty presumptuous and lame IMO. If someone's fate is already predestined then it will be the same whether you say anything to them or not.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Not the same. When you pray I don't think you are trying to change God's mind. Debate, by definition, is trying to change the mind of the other person. Now the typical Calvinist response is "Well God's using me to carry out His will". That's pretty presumptuous and lame IMO. If someone's fate is already predestined then it will be the same whether you say anything to them or not.

If Arminianism is true, then God already knows who is going to choose Him. So why pray for them?

 

[Sola_Fide]

Also, if Arminianism is true, God is doing everything He can to try to save everyone equally. So why pray for people? What more can God do?

 

[Sola_Fide]

It is obvious. It takes effort, and mental gymnastics to make yourself think otherwise.

No, it takes a simple reading of God's Word.

Romans 9:14-16 NIV

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

No mental gymnastics. Simple, straightforward. Salvation depends on God's mercy, not human desire or effort.

 

[acptulsa]

No, it takes a simple reading of God's Word.

No mental gymnastics. Simple, straightforward. Salvation depends on God's mercy, not human desire or effort.

I didn't see anything in there about what might move God to mercy. But I do see something in there about justice. And that suggests to me that God will have mercy on, and compassion for, those who deserve it.

NOTE: No mental gymnastics were utilized in reaching this conclusion.

 

[Sola_Fide]

I didn't see anything in there about what might move God to mercy. But I do see something in there about justice. And that suggests to me that God will have mercy on, and compassion for, those who deserve it.

NOTE: No mental gymnastics were utilized in reaching this conclusion.

In this verse alone, it could be deduced that there isn't anything in man that could move God to show mercy to someone:

Romans 9:16

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

So, in that verse, it rules out human desire or effort. Therefore, human desire and effort cannot move God to be merciful.

So what does move God to be merciful? It is just 3 verses before it:

Romans 9:11-13

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What moves God to be merciful to some is His own sovereign purpose in election. No mental gymnastics. Simple, straightforward. There is no such thing as free will. Salvation does not come from anything in us, it only comes from God's doing.

 

[jmdrake]

If Arminianism is true, then God already knows who is going to choose Him. So why pray for them?

Calvinism teaches that God already knows who is going to choose Him. I'm not saying Arminianism doesn't teach that, but Calvinism most certainly does. So the argument that you are attempting to use against Arminiasm most squarely fits against Calvinism.

Also, if Arminianism is true, God is doing everything He can to try to save everyone equally. So why pray for people? What more can God do?

.
If God has already chosen to save some and not save others as Calvinism teaches, than why pray for people? Are you hoping that God will change His mind and decide to save someone that He has already damned? Really, this is the the most bizarre argument I've seen from you yet. Are you claiming that Armininism isn't true because God doesn't know who will choose Him? Do you think that Arminianism is false because Calvinism is false? Unless you believe that we shouldn't pray for lost souls. In that case you are again contradicting Jesus who in Matthew 9:38 said to "Pray that the Lord of the harvest send forth reapers". You are also contradicting Paul who said:



1 Timothy 2:1 ESV / 97 helpful votes
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people

 

[erowe1]

We don't pray for God to change things that are outside of his control. We only pray for him to change things that are under his control. Prayer never moves God to do anything differently than what his eternal plan has always already been. It shows our own dependence on him for all things. When we pray for an unbeliever to repent and believe in Jesus, we acknowledge that the question of whether or not they do that is up to God.