"I Don't Want Free Will" by Martin Luther

[jmdrake]

In this verse alone, it could be deduced that there isn't anything in man that could move God to show mercy to someone:

The whole book of Jonah refutes that interpretation of that single verse. So does Abraham's pleading to God on behalf of Sodom. So does Moses interceding on behalf of Israel.

Deuteronomy 9:13-29

13 And the Lord said to me, “I have seen this people, and they are a stiff-necked people indeed! 14 Let me alone, so that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven. And I will make you into a nation stronger and more numerous than they.”

15 So I turned and went down from the mountain while it was ablaze with fire. And the two tablets of the covenant were in my hands. 16 When I looked, I saw that you had sinned against the Lord your God; you had made for yourselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. You had turned aside quickly from the way that the Lord had commanded you. 17 So I took the two tablets and threw them out of my hands, breaking them to pieces before your eyes.

18 Then once again I fell prostrate before the Lord for forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water, because of all the sin you had committed, doing what was evil in the Lord’s sight and so arousing his anger. 19 I feared the anger and wrath of the Lord, for he was angry enough with you to destroy you. But again the Lord listened to me. 20 And the Lord was angry enough with Aaron to destroy him, but at that time I prayed for Aaron too. 21 Also I took that sinful thing of yours, the calf you had made, and burned it in the fire. Then I crushed it and ground it to powder as fine as dust and threw the dust into a stream that flowed down the mountain.

22 You also made the Lord angry at Taberah, at Massah and at Kibroth Hattaavah.

23 And when the Lord sent you out from Kadesh Barnea, he said, “Go up and take possession of the land I have given you.” But you rebelled against the command of the Lord your God. You did not trust him or obey him. 24 You have been rebellious against the Lord ever since I have known you.

25 I lay prostrate before the Lord those forty days and forty nights because the Lord had said he would destroy you. 26 I prayed to the Lord and said, “Sovereign Lord, do not destroy your people, your own inheritance that you redeemed by your great power and brought out of Egypt with a mighty hand. 27 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Overlook the stubbornness of this people, their wickedness and their sin. 28 Otherwise, the country from which you brought us will say, ‘Because the Lord was not able to take them into the land he had promised them, and because he hated them, he brought them out to put them to death in the wilderness.’ 29 But they are your people, your inheritance that you brought out by your great power and your outstretched arm.”

But no. Your way must be better Sola_Fide. You know everything right? Rather than praying for people the way to evangelize is to argue with them. Yes. That must be the way. Leave God out of it because He has better things to do than to listen to the prayers of His saints on behalf of sinners.

 

[jmdrake]

We don't pray for God to change things that are outside of his control. We only pray for him to change things that are under his control. Prayer never moves God to do anything differently than what his eternal plan has always already been. It shows our own dependence on him for all things. When we pray for an unbeliever to repent and believe in Jesus, we acknowledge that the question of whether or not they do that is up to God.

We pray for God to change things? If God has already planned for something to work out a certain way, and if that is unchangeable, what is there to pray for? The answer, of course, is nothing. The belief that we are "praying for God to change something" is inserting man into the plan of salvation whether you are willing to admit it or not. But I guess Calvinists don't really believe in predestination since they believe it has something to do with God changing something that He had already set in motion.

 

[erowe1]

We pray for God to change things? If God has already planned for something to work out a certain way, what is there to pray for? The answer, of course, is nothing. The belief that we are "praying for God to change something" is inserting man into the plan of salvation whether you are willing to admit it or not.

We pray for him to change things from what they are, but we don't pray for him to change his eternal plan. If you pray for God to move an unbeliever to belief, then you are subjecting that person's will to God's control, whether you are willing to admit it or not.

 

[Muwahid]

We don't pray for God to change things that are outside of his control. We only pray for him to change things that are under his control. Prayer never moves God to do anything differently than what his eternal plan has always already been. It shows our own dependence on him for all things. When we pray for an unbeliever to repent and believe in Jesus, we acknowledge that the question of whether or not they do that is up to God.

Things can be out of Gods control?

 

[erowe1]

Things can be out of Gods control?

No. Everything that happens is completely under God's control. And whenever I pray about anything, I tacitly admit that.

 

[jmdrake]

Things can be out of Gods control?

Yeah. I thought that was odd too. But in these discussions I've heard Calvinists say on more than one occasion that God Himself lacks freewill. Bizarre indeed.

 

[acptulsa]

We pray for him to change things from what they are, but we don't pray for him to change his eternal plan.

So you admit that God is capable of getting from Point A to Point D through either Point B or Point C.

Well, that's a start...

We don't pray for God to change things that are outside of his control. We only pray for him to change things that are under his control.

No. Everything that happens is completely under God's control. And whenever I pray about anything, I tacitly admit that.

Or not.

I think I'll give up on this debate and go wrestle a greased pig instead.

 

[low preference guy]

Yeah. I thought that was odd too. But in these discussions I've heard Calvinists say on more than one occasion that God Himself lacks freewill. Bizarre indeed.

of course, God couldn't choose to commit suicide, could he?

 

[erowe1]

So you admit that God is capable of getting from Point A to Point D through either Point B or Point C.

Well, that's a start...

Please explain that. I'm not sure what that means, nor how what I said relates to it.

 

[jmdrake]

We pray for him to change things from what they are, but we don't pray for him to change his eternal plan. If you pray for God to move an unbeliever to belief, then you are subjecting that person's will to God's control, whether you are willing to admit it or not.

If it's already God's will to move that person from unbelief to belief then you praying that God will do that shows that you don't actually believe God is sovereign because God wouldn't need you to pray for Him to do what He was already going to do anyway, whether you are willing to admit it or not. If a D.A. asks a defense attorney to try to get his client to accept a plea deal, that does not mean that such a person no longer has the ability to reject the deal because the defense attorney has overcome his freewill.

 

[jmdrake]

of course, God couldn't choose to commit suicide, could he?

John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

 

[jmdrake]

Or not.

I think I'll give up on this debate and go wrestle a greased pig instead.

LOL. Yeah, I bet erowe didn't even notice the contradiction.

 

[erowe1]

If it's already God's will to move that person from unbelief to belief then you praying that God will do that shows that you don't actually believe God is sovereign because God wouldn't need you to pray for Him to do what He was already going to do anyway, whether you are willing to admit it or not. If a D.A. asks a defense attorney to try to get his client to accept a plea deal, that does not mean that such a person no longer has the ability to reject the deal because the defense attorney has overcome his freewill.

Of course God doesn't need me to pray. My praying doesn't involve any pretense that I think God needs me to pray. I am the one who needs to pray. When I make my requests known to God, the peace that passes all understanding guards my heart and mind in Christ Jesus (Philippians 4:6-7). When I pray, what I am doing is acknowledging God's control over that about which I pray.

 

[erowe1]

LOL. Yeah, I bet erowe didn't even notice the contradiction.

It wasn't a contradiction. Nor should it be difficult to understand. You see the word "don't" in the first quote. Right?

The second quote reiterates the exact same point as the first one.

 

[jmdrake]

Of course God doesn't need me to pray. My praying doesn't involve any pretense that I think God needs me to pray. I need to pray. When I make my requests known to God, the peace that passes all understanding guards my heart and mind in Christ Jesus (Philippians 4:6-7). When I pray, what I am doing is acknowledging God's control over that about which I pray.

So you need to pray for sinners because.....? Really, I think I'm to the point of acptulsa on this. You keep contradicting yourself. It makes arguing with you frustrating. Pick a position and stick with it. If the sinner is already subject to God's will and will be forced to be saved anyway then your claim that you are "subjecting him to God's will" is silly because he was already subjected to God's will.

 

[jmdrake]

It wasn't a contradiction. Nor should it be difficult to understand. You see the word "don't" in the first quote. Right?

It is a contradiction. The first sentence implied that there were things outside of God's control. If you wanted them to be consistent you should have said "Everything we pray for is something that's under God's control because all things are under His control." Poor sentence construction on your part is poor.

 

[erowe1]

So you need to pray for sinners because.....?

Because when I do, the peace that passes understanding guards my heart and mind in Christ Jesus (Philippians 4:6-7).

Really, I think I'm to the point of acptulsa on this. You keep contradicting yourself. It makes arguing with you frustrating. Pick a position and stick with it. If the sinner is already subject to God's will and will be forced to be saved anyway then your claim that you are "subjecting him to God's will" is silly because he was already subjected to God's will.

Whatever change of position you think I've made I don't see it.

When I said you are subjecting him to God's will, I meant you, not me. I was phrasing that sentence in parallel to the sentence of yours that I had quoted in which you said that I was inserting man into God's plan for salvation.

Yes, as for me, of course, I acknowledge that everyone is already subject to God's will in everything they do, including believing in Jesus or not. My point was that, whenever you pray for anyone to believe in Jesus, you are acknowledging that as well.

 

[erowe1]

It is a contradiction. The first sentence implied that there were things outside of God's control.

No it didn't. If that wasn't clear at first, it should be now.

If you wanted them to be consistent you should have said "Everything we pray for is something that's under God's control because all things are under His control." Poor sentence construction on your part is poor.

But saying it that way would not have made the point I was making, which is that any time anyone prays for someone's salvation, they are acknowledging God's control over it. We don't pray for things God doesn't control. We pray for things he does control. It's true that Calvinists believe he controls everything. But this point can be made before even saying that.

 

[jmdrake]

Because when I do, the peace that passes understanding guards my heart and mind in Christ Jesus (Philippians 4:6-7).


Whatever change of position you think I've made I don't see it.

When I said you are subjecting him to God's will, I meant you, not me. I was phrasing that sentence in parallel to the sentence of yours that I had quoted in which you said that I was inserting man into God's plan for salvation.

Yes, as for me, of course, I acknowledge that everyone is already subject to God's will in everything they do, including believing in Jesus or not. My point was that, whenever you pray for anyone to believe in Jesus, you are acknowledging that as well.

No I'm not. For you to think that is simply illogical. Again if a D.A. asks a defense attorney to ask his client to accept a deal, that doesn't mean the D.A. is "acknowledging" that the client can be forced by the defense attorney to accept the deal. In fact when a client signs a deal he actually has to state in open court that he was not coerced to accept the deal. So no. I'm not acknowledging your fallacy that man lacks freewill by praying for the Holy Spirit to work on someone's heart. I fully believe, based on clear scripture, that God has left man with the power to accept or reject the Holy Spirit. God in His sovereignty grants man freewill. You disagree, fine. But to pretend that I'm agreeing with you when I am not is just plain silly.

 

[jmdrake]

No it didn't. If that wasn't clear at first, it should be now.

It's clear that your beliefs are unclear.

But saying it that way would not have made the point I was making, which is that any time anyone prays for someone's salvation, that person is acknowledging God's control over the other person's salvation.

*Arrrrgggg* The way you said it is you making God not in control of everything. Again, poor sentence construction on your part. For you to go back to that poor sentence construction just shows the ultimate weakness of your initial point.