Group of females corralled then pepper sprayed by cops, WTF? (NYC Protests)

[devil21]

Don't know if this was posted, it's the official Police story:

First Ive seen of their response. Not surprising since they also think shooting unarmed people is "appropriate" action in most cases, until lawsuits are filed and the FBI steps in.

 

[wannaberocker]

It's unfortunate that you feel the need to resort to violence against a non-violent actor. You would fit in with the cops in the OP video. Please point out where you are protected from inconvenience in the Constitution. As Ron Paul himself has said, you have to put up with the "bad" exercising of freedom along with the "good".

Its not a matter of inconvenience, its a matter of costs. You seem to think that the constitution gives these people the right take part in actions that incur a cost on other citizens.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Its not a matter of inconvenience, its a matter of costs. You seem to think that the constitution gives these people the right take part in actions that incur a cost on other citizens.

They were on public property. Unless you want to do away with public property, they have the right to peaceably assemble there.

 

[Athena]

New videos of the incident from different angles:

https://occupywallst.org/article/Officer-Bologna/

And a picture from this afternoon's march: (just taken about 10 minutes ago)

http://twitpic.com/6r4nzi

 

[bobbyjay]

Im sure everyone is aware that some of the protestors behaved badly. That doesn't mean indiscriminate police attacks of non-combative protestors is warranted however. The spraying cop simply couldn't control himself! If cops can't keep a cool head during protests and other tense situations then they should NOT be cops!

Standing around blocking traffic, being a nuisance, and screaming is perfectly acceptable protest. Violence on either side is not.

Everyone should watch the Frontline special about Revolution in Cairo. The leaders there worked with leaders from serbia, who also achieved a peaceful revolution. We need training for all protesters, because the natural reaction for people in mob mentality when violence is threatened, or actually used against them, is to defend themselves or run away. protesters need certain training in order to be able to maintain peaceful disobedience against increasing violence on the parts of the police. Also, any protester engaged in destruction of property or inciting riots should not be tolerated and removed from the protest by protesters, before they encourage the police to use violence against other protesters, as what happened in this video.

There is also training done to acclimate people to the threat and use of pepper spray, OC, the freeze rounds, and tear gas, so that when it is used against them they will have some training to fall back on, to know what to do to protect themselves and others while maintaining the peacefulness of the protest. The police will use violence, that's why they're used in these situations.

The media does not show us much of what's happening in Europe, but they know how to protest, because they have access to revolutionaries from neighboring countries that have been successful in recent peaceful overthrows of governments. Our protesters, and indeed all of us, need this training.

http://ruckus.org/section.php?id=71

http://www.actupny.org/documents/CDdocuments/CDindex.html

http://declarationofpeace.org/resources-for-nonviolence-trainers

However, as others have stated their previous experiences with pepper spray this may come shocking, simply put the only way to know what to expect with pepper spray and tear gas is to have it used against you... similar theory to how cops (used to) taze each other before they could use a stun gun.

 

[Mini-Me]

Don't know if this was posted, it's the official Police story:

The thick, all-encompassing, completely opaque blue line is to be expected, but what interests me is this: Apparently, the other cops looked shocked at this guy's actions...but in the end, the department once again did the predictable thing and stepped in to shield one of its own from accountability. (Even if "preventing officers from deploying a mesh barrier" would somehow deserve an escalation of force - preposterous, and something which would be a felony for any of us - their account is silly: Since the barrier was already up at the time of the spraying, using the pepper spray served no purpose beyond revenge or bullying.) The apparent shock of the other cops indicate there might be halfway decent but cowardly people working as cops in that department...but there are no good cops, i.e. cops who actually do their job. If there were, this guy would have been tackled and hog-tied. All should be fired, one should be charged with assault, and many should be charged with conspiracy and obstruction of justice. LOL, like that will ever happen.

 

[dannno]

Why is the officer's last name Bologna??

That was the name of my hamster.

 

[Mini-Me]

Why is the officer's last name Bologna??

That was the name of my hamster.

...and also what it became? (Please don't kill me. )

 

[affa]

This video shows maybe 20 seconds earlier. About :5 you can see one of the "peaceful" protestors punch a cop in the face.

actually, as the camera pans over it appears the citizen is already on his knees, then leaps up, and yes, strikes towards the cop.

but:

A) this has nothing to do with the incident being discussed. different people.
B) even this extended video only shows part of what happened. we don't know what happened to that citizen to put him on his knees, which then cause him to strike. he could be a jerk. he could be defending himself. can't tell. but regardless, see point A.

 

[affa]

I love how every time anyone disagrees with the prevailing opinion around here, the person is accused of "trolling", or trying to "divide" people. God forbid someone should have a different opinion.

No, don't try to dodge this. I didn't not say you were trolling. I am saying you are clearly, fully, and completely trying to divide the populace. You have come on strong, dismissing protestors, insulting them, condemning them, marginalizing them. you have said this particular person 'asked for it' and was overreacting.

Your words seek to put forth a world view that is 'us' vs. 'them', but the 'them' isn't the oppressive state, but our fellow citizens who are trying to peacefully assemble at a time when that's almost impossible because the state repeatedly corrals and peppersprays peaceful protestors.

That is why I not only call you divisive, but can easily reference your own stance to prove it. You are on the side of the state. You try to convince us these protestors are nothing but riff raff. And I'm calling you out on it. It has nothing to do with you 'disagreeing', and everything to do with what the content of your message is. If, magically, you were to convince me you were right, it would -divide- me from my fellow peaceful citizen. It would ultimately divide me from my own right to peacefully protest, since those who seek to dismiss protestors effectively seek to dismiss protest itself.

 

[kylejack]

actually, as the camera pans over it appears the citizen is already on his knees, then leaps up, and yes, strikes towards the cop.

but:

A) this has nothing to do with the incident being discussed. different people.
B) even this extended video only shows part of what happened. we don't know what happened to that citizen to put him on his knees, which then cause him to strike. he could be a jerk. he could be defending himself. can't tell. but regardless, see point A.

What I pieced together from the multiple videos:

The police ordered everyone up on to the sidewalk. Most started moving up on to the sidewalks and others got some hard shoves. A tall black protester steps back into the streets and the cops start grabbing at him, with one white shirt giving him a hard poke with the night stick. Other protesters try to pull him back into the crowd and there's a little tug of war. Eventually the cops win, pull the guy back into the street and throw him to the ground.

Then some other guy in a green shirt and orange bandana steps onto the street and gets extremely close to the arrest with a camera, maybe trying to communicate with the guy getting arrested. A cop shoves him away and then he takes a swing at the cop. A white shirt tackles him from behind, he resists, and the white shirt cop throws him into a car. Meanwhile there is some kind of scuffle going on between a fat girl behind the barrier and the cops holding the net. I can't tell who attacked who first, but there's a few seconds of a cop holding her by the hair. Everything that has happened so far is controversial, but might be appropriate police behavior...maybe.

There's some ladies that are yelling at the cop who is throwing the guy against the car, but who made no attempt to cross the line and were just taking pictures and yelling at the cops. These ladies were at least 20 - 25 feet from the other fat woman. After taking away the guy who had assaulted the cop, two white shirts return and one sprays all the ladies in the face with a large sweeping motion. He holsters his canister and walks away. He wasn't trying to effect an arrest or detain anyone. None of those ladies seemed to do anything to deserve it.

 

[Rael]

No, don't try to dodge this. I didn't not say you were trolling. I am saying you are clearly, fully, and completely trying to divide the populace. You have come on strong, dismissing protestors, insulting them, condemning them, marginalizing them. you have said this particular person 'asked for it' and was overreacting.

Your words seek to put forth a world view that is 'us' vs. 'them', but the 'them' isn't the oppressive state, but our fellow citizens who are trying to peacefully assemble at a time when that's almost impossible because the state repeatedly corrals and peppersprays peaceful protestors.

That is why I not only call you divisive, but can easily reference your own stance to prove it. You are on the side of the state. You try to convince us these protestors are nothing but riff raff. And I'm calling you out on it. It has nothing to do with you 'disagreeing', and everything to do with what the content of your message is. If, magically, you were to convince me you were right, it would -divide- me from my fellow peaceful citizen. It would ultimately divide me from my own right to peacefully protest, since those who seek to dismiss protestors effectively seek to dismiss protest itself.

Your argument is a straw man, because you keep referring to these folks as "peaceful". The folks that got sprayed were being corralled onto the sidewalk, which leads me to believe that prior to the beginning of the video they were in the street blocking other people from going about their business (as others still are doing in the video). It wouldn't surprise me at all if they were violent, as that seemed to be common at this protest.

Now if you find a video that shows what was happening before, and it reveals that all the corralled folks were just sitting around singing Kumbaya, I will be the first to condemn the cop and defend those people. Since we don't see what happened prior, I can only try to guess what happened, but based on everything I see in the video, my best guess is that those people were not innocent and peaceful.

 

[wannaberocker]

They were on public property. Unless you want to do away with public property, they have the right to peaceably assemble there.

Of course they have that right. But they dont have the right to prevent others from using the same public sidewalk in order to get to their destination. THey also dont have the right to block traffic or to prevent other citizens from using the roads.

What part of that dont you folks understand? You all act like the protests have rights, but if your not a protester you have no rights.

Remember you have the right to free speech. But your not allowed to yell "Fire" in a theater because that incur's a cost on other citizens.

 

[CCTelander]

I could see a few in this thread gleefully cheering back in the 60s as the cops "cracked those damned hippies' skulls" during the civil rights protests going on at the time.

It's truly sickening.

 

[Wesker1982]

But your not allowed to yell "Fire" in a theater because that incur's a cost on other citizens.

http://mises.org/resources.aspx?Id=458c3008-8d05-460b-889a-54b047ad4e15

 

[wannaberocker]

http://mises.org/resources.aspx?Id=458c3008-8d05-460b-889a-54b047ad4e15

Thanks for the post. But that still dosnt take away from my origional point. To suggest that the protestors have a right to be on the sidewalk and protest is fine. But to connect that to the idea that they somehow also have the right to prevent others from using the same public sidewalk is flawed. To suggest that the protestors have a right to block traffic and prevent other citizens from using the road is again flawed.

The mises article actually backs up my point in general.

 

[kylejack]

Your argument is a straw man, because you keep referring to these folks as "peaceful". The folks that got sprayed were being corralled onto the sidewalk, which leads me to believe that prior to the beginning of the video they were in the street blocking other people from going about their business (as others still are doing in the video). It wouldn't surprise me at all if they were violent, as that seemed to be common at this protest.

Again your arguments are all founded on a bad premise: That police are justified in assaulting passive people because of something they did in the past. They are not. Police should use only the force necessary, and only as long as that amount of force is necessary. If the officer was trying to effect an arrest, he would have waited around to collect them after macing them. He did not. He just holstered his cannister and wandered off. A few minutes later, the remaining police packed up the net and left.

This is civil law enforcement, not a fucking war. Police are not justified to engage in ultra-violence the moment they see someone breaking the law, and for as long as they want after that.

Now if you find a video that shows what was happening before, and it reveals that all the corralled folks were just sitting around singing Kumbaya, I will be the first to condemn the cop and defend those people. Since we don't see what happened prior, I can only try to guess what happened, but based on everything I see in the video, my best guess is that those people were not innocent and peaceful.

I guess you haven't watched the videos that have been linked in the thread. I wrote a synopsis of the entire series of events as documented by the various videos. The interactions start well before the people are corraled. You won't be the first to condemn the cop, you'll be the last.

 

[kylejack]

Of course they have that right. But they dont have the right to prevent others from using the same public sidewalk in order to get to their destination. THey also dont have the right to block traffic or to prevent other citizens from using the roads.

What part of that dont you folks understand? You all act like the protests have rights, but if your not a protester you have no rights.

Remember you have the right to free speech. But your not allowed to yell "Fire" in a theater because that incur's a cost on other citizens.

Again you are straying far from the linked videos. Peaceful women who were taking pictures and talking to the police from behind a police-erected barrier were attacked by a cop who had no interest in arresting or detaining them. Then he holstered his cannister and wandered off. This was a high-ranking supervisor, and the grunt cops seemed amazed. Why aren't you?

 

[wannaberocker]

Again you are straying far from the linked videos. Peaceful women who were taking pictures and talking to the police from behind a police-erected barrier were attacked by a cop who had no interest in arresting or detaining them. Then he holstered his cannister and wandered off. This was a high-ranking supervisor, and the grunt cops seemed amazed. Why aren't you?

The discussion im having has nothing to do with the cops actions. Its more about the rights of diff people the protestors and the non protestors.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I could see a few in this thread gleefully cheering back in the 60s as the cops "cracked those damned hippies' skulls" during the civil rights protests going on at the time.

It's truly sickening.

Can't let the hippies conglomerate!