Do You Believe There Will Be A Rapture?

[Kevin007]

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just.
On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”



Cyprian
Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.
In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”


Ephraim The Syrian
Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:
In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.
Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”
​

 

[donnay]

Hi Donnay!!
God gave the feasts in Leviticus 23.
There are spring feasts, which have already been fulfilled by Jesus.
Passover - fulfilled by Jesus death
The feast of unleavened bread - fulfilled at his burial
Feast of First Fruits - fulfilled at his resurrection
Feast of Pentecost - fulfilled at the coming of the Holy Spirit
Then there are fall feasts, which have not yet been fulfilled by Jesus.
The feast of Trumpets - will be fulfilled at the rapture
The feast of Yom Kippur - will be fulfilled at Christ's second coming
The feast of Tabernacles - Will be fulfilled at the Jesus creation of the Millennial Kingdom

Here is the best teaching that I have found on the feasts. The first is a teaching on the Spring Feasts, from Passover to Pentecost.
You will see the guy has other teachings on the Fall Feasts as well, and by the time you watch the first one, you will be jumping up and down to watch the rest, at least I was. LOL.



Adding in also the Feast of Trumpets video

Interesting...but let me ask you this, did you watch the videos I posted with Dr. Murray? He walks you through, chapter-by-chapter and verse-by-verse using the KJV (1911) and Strong's Concordance for interpretations in Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew.

I was hoping that by posting it people would watch him and come debate.




The Rapture Theory - Its Surprising Origin

Almost all Christians are interested in prophecy. This is especially true if the prophecies show what will happen to Christians themselves. There is nothing wrong in desiring such personal knowledge. Even our Lord gave a considerable amount of teaching about the circumstances to befall His people at the end of the age (Matthew 24:22–25). We all share a common concern in wanting to know about the participants, the chronology, and the geography of those prophecies. To comprehend the full knowledge of them it is obvious that all relevant statements of our Lord and His apostles must be properly interpreted and placed in a coherent order.

Many Christians have attempted to do this. As a consequence, the doctrine of the Rapture has arisen. So important has it become to many that the teaching is now sanctioned in some circles as the prime revelation from God to show what will happen to members of His ekklesia just before and during the Second Coming of Christ. Some of the greatest friends of the Holy Scriptures have accepted this teaching (and they teach this false doctrine even by mistranslating the phrase “first resurrection” as “the former resurrection” in Revelation 20:5). If one translates the word correctly as “first,” then it means the resurrection of Christians occurs after the Tribulation, and the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory is shown to be false. 1

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory, however, is a menacing doctrine that perverts the plain language of the text of the New Testament. Some preachers today look on the doctrine as the heart and core of present Christian expectations in regard to prophetic truth for the near future! Many believe this false teaching is the principle hope of the Body of Christ for their redemption and safety during the Great Tribulation. We need to look at this teaching carefully.

The Doctrine of the Rapture

First understand that the word “Rapture” is not found in the King James translation. There is also no single word used by biblical authors to describe the prophetic factors that comprise the doctrine. Its formulation came about by means of inductive reasoning. Certain biblical passages concerning the Second Coming, and the role Christians will play in that event, were blended together inductively to establish the teaching.

The modern expression “Rapture” has been invented to explain the overall teaching and the term suits the subject well. The basic tenets of the doctrine are simple. It purports that Christ will come back to this earth in two phases. He will first return secretly to rapture His church away from this world so that they might escape the Great Tribulation to occur at the end of the age. Christ then returns in a visible advent to dispense His wrath on the world’s nations. This is the general teaching.

Many details concerning these prime factors are hotly debated. There is especially much argument over the chronological features associated with it. Some think the time lapse between the two phases will be 3 ½ years, others say 7 years. Some feel that the Rapture of the ekklesia occurs before the Tribulation, others about mid-way through. Many suggest that the saints of God will be taken to heaven for protection, while others suggest a geographical area on this earth (as I have shown in various articles). 2 Some feel that only part of the ekklesia will escape, while others say all will be rescued.

These variations and others have multiplied the interpretations among those holding the belief. But all are unanimous on one point: the central theme of the “Rapture Theory” (as it is normally called in the theological world) shows that Christ will return to earth in two phases. They think Christ will come at first secretly for His saints and then He will come visibly with His saints returning with Him from heaven at the actual Second Advent. In this book, when I use the term “Rapture” standing alone, I always mean the “Rapture Theory” of the pre-tribulation theorists.

The Newness of the Doctrine

It may come as a surprise but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 C.E. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned it before 1830 (though a sentence in Pseudo-Dionysius in about 500 C.E. could be so interpreted). Of course, those who feel the origin of the teaching is in the Bible would say that it ceased being taught for some unknown reason at the close of the apostolic age only to reappear in 1830. But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19th century.

The lateness of the doctrine does not necessarily mean the teaching is wrong (only the plain statements of the Bible can reveal that). It does show that thousands of eminent scholars over seventeen centuries (including the most astute “Christian Fathers” and those of the Reformation and post-Reformation periods) must be considered prophetic dunces for not having understood so fundamental a teaching. This lapse of seventeen centuries when no one elaborated on the doctrine must be viewed as an obstacle to accepting its reliability.

The Beginnings of the Doctrine

The result of a careful investigation into the origin of the Rapture was published in 1976. This was in an excellent research book that deserves to be read by all people interested in the subject. Its title: The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin by Dave MacPherson. 3 He catalogs a great deal of historical material that answers the doctrine’s mysterious derivation. I wish to review the results of his research.

In the middle 1820’s a religious environment began to be established among a few Christians in London, England which proved to be the catalyst from which the doctrine of the Rapture emerged. Expectations of the soon coming of our Lord were being voiced. This was no new thing, but what was unusual was the teaching by a Presbyterian minister named Edward Irving that there had to be a restoration of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians chapters 12–14 just before Christ’s Second Advent. To Irving, the time had come for those spiritual manifestations to occur. Among the expected gifts was the renewal of speaking in tongues and of prophetic utterances motivated by the spirit.

Irving began to propagate his beliefs. His oratorical skills and enthusiasm caused his congregation in London to grow. Then a number of people began to experience the “gifts.” Once this happened, opposition from the organized churches set in. It resulted in Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church in 1832. His group established themselves as the Catholic Apostolic Church and continued the teachings of Irving. These events were the beginnings of what some call present day Pentecostalism. Some church historians referred to Irving as “the father of modern Pentecostalism.”

What does this have to do with the origin of the Rapture doctrine? Look at what happened in the year 1830 — two years before Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church. In that year a revival of the “gifts” began to be manifested among some people living in the lowlands of Scotland. They experienced what they called the outpouring of the Spirit. It was accompanied with speak*ing in “tongues” and other charismatic phenomena. Irving preached that these things must occur and now they were.

On one particular evening, the power of the Holy Spirit was said to have rested on a Miss Margaret Macdonald while she was ill at home. She was dangerously sick and thought she was dying. In spite of this (or perhaps because she is supposed to have come under the “power” of the spirit) for several successive hours she experienced manifestations of “mingled prophecy and vision.” She found her mind in an altered state and began to experience considerable visionary activity.

The message she received during this prophetic vision convinced her that Christ was going to appear in two stages at His Second Advent, and not a single occasion as most all people formerly believed. The spirit emanation revealed that Christ would first come in glory to those who look for Him and again later in a final stage when every eye would see Him. This visionary experience of Miss Macdonald represented the prime source of the modern Rapture doctrine as the historical evidence compiled by Mr. MacPherson reveals.
The Influence of John Darby

Many people have thought that John Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren, was the originator of the Rapture doctrine. This is not the case. Darby was a brilliant theologian with outstanding scholarly abilities. Even those who disagreed with his teachings admit that he, and many associated with him, helped cause a revival in biblical learning throughout the evangelical world which has perpetuated down to the present day. All who love biblical research ought to be thankful for what Darby and especially his associates accomplished for biblical scholarship. These early men helped pave the way particularly for the renewal of modern lexical studies in the biblical languages.

This renewal of language studies was not the only thing they produced. The doctrine of “dispensationalism” was also a teaching they brought to the attention of the Protestant world. And then, there was this new doctrine termed the “Rapture.” While many Christians long thought the Rapture doctrine originated with John Darby, it is now known that this was not true. Darby did popularize it. Scofield and others took it over. But Darby provided the intellectual mantle that helped make it respectable. Many of those in the evangelical sphere of Christianity today are so certain of its veracity that it is accepted as the absolute truth of God. The fact is, however, John Darby received the knowledge of the doctrine from someone else. His source was Margaret Macdonald.

The studies of Mr. MacPherson show that her sickness during which she received her visions and revelations occurred sometime between February 1 and April 14, 1830. By late spring and early summer of 1830, her belief in the two phases of Christ’s coming was mentioned in praise and prayer meetings in several towns of western Scotland. In these meetings some people were speaking in “tongues” and other charismatic occurrences were in evidence. Modern “Pentecostalism” had its birth.

These extraordinary and strange events so attracted John Darby that he made a trip to the area to witness what was going on. Though he did not approve of the ecstatic episodes that he witnessed, it is nonetheless significant that Darby, after returning from Scotland, began to teach that Christ’s Advent would occur in two phases. MacPherson shows good evidence that Darby even visited Miss Macdonald in her home. There can hardly be any doubt that the visions and spiritual experiences of Miss Macdonald are the source of the modern doctrine. But belief in such paranormal experiences is dangerous, especially when they are contrary to scriptural teachings.

Continued...

 

[jessahick]

the last trump and seventh trumpet are 2 different things. You are incorrect.


It is clear that the last trump (the trump of God) is about believers. More specifically, it is about the removal of believers (the Church) from the earth in the Rapture (I Thess. 4:13-18; I Cor. 15:51-53). The last trump on the trump of God will sound, the deceased believers will be raised (like Jesus, Lazarus and the Old Testament saints who were dead, buried and raised from the dead), the living believers will be changed (like Enoch and Elijah) and the entire Church will be caught up (or Raptured) into heaven at the same time. But the passage about the seventh trumpet is about unbelievers. More specifically, it is about those who are not in the Church (Rev. 11:15-19). When the angel blows the seventh trumpet it will cause anger on earth, lightening, thunder, an earthquake, great hail, and it will lead to the seven last plagues.

The last trump (the trump of God) will be an act of grace. It will call the undeserving Church into heaven. But the trumpet blown by the seventh angel during the Tribulation Period will be an act of wrath. It will signal divine judgment upon those on earth.

The last trump (the trump of God) will probably be blown by God (I Thes. 4:16). The seventh trumpet will be blown by the seventh angel (Rev. 11:15).

BTW Darby didn't invent the rapture. The rapture has a long history of Church Fathers. The rapture, the "catching up" (harpazo) was revealed by Paul the apostle. It is a mystery he gave us through Holy Spirit inspiration, as recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18. The Rapture was not the concoction of John Darby, who picked up this teaching, and gave it improved order of presentation centuries after the doctrine was believed and taught by the early church fathers (first two centuries AD).

It may be clear to you that way, but we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one here. I see them as happening at the same time, not different times. That is how it reads to me. I Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. This is in regards to Christ's coming & directed to believers, no doubt. Who made the rule that Revelation 11: 15-19 was a different & separate event? Same thing with the Corinthians reference. I'm sure somebody well-edjycated somewhere made that decision. I choose not to follow anyone's doctrine but God's long ago. All are telling of the events of the last days of this earth age.

Big "r" Rapture or little "r" rapture & the timeline are the debates. I dislike the term rapture because I do think it is deceptive & that it has been used as a tool, like so many Godly things, for just that- the subtle deception. As a result many folk are indeed going to be deceived -- waiting around to "fly away" with Jesus somewhere... that is what this is about. The folk who aren't prepared for the trials & tribulations that are headed our way & are looking for an early way out. Let's face it-- no one wants their friends, family, kiddos to witness the ugly parts of what is coming. I was joking bout Darby.

 

[jessahick]

Donnay! I'll watch Arnold later this week.... I gotta go tomorrow morning & get precinct ready for elections. Time fer bed fer this hick. Hard for me to debate Arnold. We agree on *most.... I haven't found a topic yet I disagree with him on.

 

[Miss Annie]

Interesting...but let me ask you this, did you watch the videos I posted with Dr. Murray? He walks you through, chapter-by-chapter and verse-by-verse using the KJV (1911) and Strong's Concordance for interpretations in Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew.

I was hoping that by posting it people would watch him and come debate.




The Rapture Theory - Its Surprising Origin

Almost all Christians are interested in prophecy. This is especially true if the prophecies show what will happen to Christians themselves. There is nothing wrong in desiring such personal knowledge. Even our Lord gave a considerable amount of teaching about the circumstances to befall His people at the end of the age (Matthew 24:22–25). We all share a common concern in wanting to know about the participants, the chronology, and the geography of those prophecies. To comprehend the full knowledge of them it is obvious that all relevant statements of our Lord and His apostles must be properly interpreted and placed in a coherent order.

Many Christians have attempted to do this. As a consequence, the doctrine of the Rapture has arisen. So important has it become to many that the teaching is now sanctioned in some circles as the prime revelation from God to show what will happen to members of His ekklesia just before and during the Second Coming of Christ. Some of the greatest friends of the Holy Scriptures have accepted this teaching (and they teach this false doctrine even by mistranslating the phrase “first resurrection” as “the former resurrection” in Revelation 20:5). If one translates the word correctly as “first,” then it means the resurrection of Christians occurs after the Tribulation, and the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory is shown to be false. 1

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory, however, is a menacing doctrine that perverts the plain language of the text of the New Testament. Some preachers today look on the doctrine as the heart and core of present Christian expectations in regard to prophetic truth for the near future! Many believe this false teaching is the principle hope of the Body of Christ for their redemption and safety during the Great Tribulation. We need to look at this teaching carefully.

The Doctrine of the Rapture

First understand that the word “Rapture” is not found in the King James translation. There is also no single word used by biblical authors to describe the prophetic factors that comprise the doctrine. Its formulation came about by means of inductive reasoning. Certain biblical passages concerning the Second Coming, and the role Christians will play in that event, were blended together inductively to establish the teaching.

The modern expression “Rapture” has been invented to explain the overall teaching and the term suits the subject well. The basic tenets of the doctrine are simple. It purports that Christ will come back to this earth in two phases. He will first return secretly to rapture His church away from this world so that they might escape the Great Tribulation to occur at the end of the age. Christ then returns in a visible advent to dispense His wrath on the world’s nations. This is the general teaching.

Many details concerning these prime factors are hotly debated. There is especially much argument over the chronological features associated with it. Some think the time lapse between the two phases will be 3 ½ years, others say 7 years. Some feel that the Rapture of the ekklesia occurs before the Tribulation, others about mid-way through. Many suggest that the saints of God will be taken to heaven for protection, while others suggest a geographical area on this earth (as I have shown in various articles). 2 Some feel that only part of the ekklesia will escape, while others say all will be rescued.

These variations and others have multiplied the interpretations among those holding the belief. But all are unanimous on one point: the central theme of the “Rapture Theory” (as it is normally called in the theological world) shows that Christ will return to earth in two phases. They think Christ will come at first secretly for His saints and then He will come visibly with His saints returning with Him from heaven at the actual Second Advent. In this book, when I use the term “Rapture” standing alone, I always mean the “Rapture Theory” of the pre-tribulation theorists.

The Newness of the Doctrine

It may come as a surprise but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 C.E. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned it before 1830 (though a sentence in Pseudo-Dionysius in about 500 C.E. could be so interpreted). Of course, those who feel the origin of the teaching is in the Bible would say that it ceased being taught for some unknown reason at the close of the apostolic age only to reappear in 1830. But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19th century.

The lateness of the doctrine does not necessarily mean the teaching is wrong (only the plain statements of the Bible can reveal that). It does show that thousands of eminent scholars over seventeen centuries (including the most astute “Christian Fathers” and those of the Reformation and post-Reformation periods) must be considered prophetic dunces for not having understood so fundamental a teaching. This lapse of seventeen centuries when no one elaborated on the doctrine must be viewed as an obstacle to accepting its reliability.

The Beginnings of the Doctrine

The result of a careful investigation into the origin of the Rapture was published in 1976. This was in an excellent research book that deserves to be read by all people interested in the subject. Its title: The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin by Dave MacPherson. 3 He catalogs a great deal of historical material that answers the doctrine’s mysterious derivation. I wish to review the results of his research.

In the middle 1820’s a religious environment began to be established among a few Christians in London, England which proved to be the catalyst from which the doctrine of the Rapture emerged. Expectations of the soon coming of our Lord were being voiced. This was no new thing, but what was unusual was the teaching by a Presbyterian minister named Edward Irving that there had to be a restoration of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians chapters 12–14 just before Christ’s Second Advent. To Irving, the time had come for those spiritual manifestations to occur. Among the expected gifts was the renewal of speaking in tongues and of prophetic utterances motivated by the spirit.

Irving began to propagate his beliefs. His oratorical skills and enthusiasm caused his congregation in London to grow. Then a number of people began to experience the “gifts.” Once this happened, opposition from the organized churches set in. It resulted in Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church in 1832. His group established themselves as the Catholic Apostolic Church and continued the teachings of Irving. These events were the beginnings of what some call present day Pentecostalism. Some church historians referred to Irving as “the father of modern Pentecostalism.”

What does this have to do with the origin of the Rapture doctrine? Look at what happened in the year 1830 — two years before Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church. In that year a revival of the “gifts” began to be manifested among some people living in the lowlands of Scotland. They experienced what they called the outpouring of the Spirit. It was accompanied with speak*ing in “tongues” and other charismatic phenomena. Irving preached that these things must occur and now they were.

On one particular evening, the power of the Holy Spirit was said to have rested on a Miss Margaret Macdonald while she was ill at home. She was dangerously sick and thought she was dying. In spite of this (or perhaps because she is supposed to have come under the “power” of the spirit) for several successive hours she experienced manifestations of “mingled prophecy and vision.” She found her mind in an altered state and began to experience considerable visionary activity.

The message she received during this prophetic vision convinced her that Christ was going to appear in two stages at His Second Advent, and not a single occasion as most all people formerly believed. The spirit emanation revealed that Christ would first come in glory to those who look for Him and again later in a final stage when every eye would see Him. This visionary experience of Miss Macdonald represented the prime source of the modern Rapture doctrine as the historical evidence compiled by Mr. MacPherson reveals.
The Influence of John Darby

Many people have thought that John Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren, was the originator of the Rapture doctrine. This is not the case. Darby was a brilliant theologian with outstanding scholarly abilities. Even those who disagreed with his teachings admit that he, and many associated with him, helped cause a revival in biblical learning throughout the evangelical world which has perpetuated down to the present day. All who love biblical research ought to be thankful for what Darby and especially his associates accomplished for biblical scholarship. These early men helped pave the way particularly for the renewal of modern lexical studies in the biblical languages.

This renewal of language studies was not the only thing they produced. The doctrine of “dispensationalism” was also a teaching they brought to the attention of the Protestant world. And then, there was this new doctrine termed the “Rapture.” While many Christians long thought the Rapture doctrine originated with John Darby, it is now known that this was not true. Darby did popularize it. Scofield and others took it over. But Darby provided the intellectual mantle that helped make it respectable. Many of those in the evangelical sphere of Christianity today are so certain of its veracity that it is accepted as the absolute truth of God. The fact is, however, John Darby received the knowledge of the doctrine from someone else. His source was Margaret Macdonald.

The studies of Mr. MacPherson show that her sickness during which she received her visions and revelations occurred sometime between February 1 and April 14, 1830. By late spring and early summer of 1830, her belief in the two phases of Christ’s coming was mentioned in praise and prayer meetings in several towns of western Scotland. In these meetings some people were speaking in “tongues” and other charismatic occurrences were in evidence. Modern “Pentecostalism” had its birth.

These extraordinary and strange events so attracted John Darby that he made a trip to the area to witness what was going on. Though he did not approve of the ecstatic episodes that he witnessed, it is nonetheless significant that Darby, after returning from Scotland, began to teach that Christ’s Advent would occur in two phases. MacPherson shows good evidence that Darby even visited Miss Macdonald in her home. There can hardly be any doubt that the visions and spiritual experiences of Miss Macdonald are the source of the modern doctrine. But belief in such paranormal experiences is dangerous, especially when they are contrary to scriptural teachings.

Continued...

I am sorry Donnay, I did not. With my daughter being so sick, my time at the computer and for study has dropped tremendously. She is doing the homebound program for school right now.. and my time has just gone POOF! I have been backing off on posting a lot because its hard for me to keep up with the long threads and debates and a lot of times when I do jump in and havent followed well, I end up making stupid and irrelevant posts because I haven't been able to follow closely.
I would highly suggest that as many as can, should watch the videos that I posted. I believe that the feasts are also important to Christians. Learning about the Feasts was HUGE for my walk with the Lord. Not that I officially celebrate them, but it entirely changed my perspective on how God operates and how He sees many things.
The feasts are so important that even during the thousand year reign of Christ, the feast of tabernacles will still be celebrated. See Zechariah 14. The entire chapter of Zechariah 14 is about the return of Christ but verse 16 says that tabernacles will still be observed.
I wish I had the time that I used to have to get more into the debates and discussions, but taking care of my daughter is taking so much time now. Different schedules, different menus, lots of cleaning and homework, etc...

 

[donnay]

Donnay! I'll watch Arnold later this week.... I gotta go tomorrow morning & get precinct ready for elections. Time fer bed fer this hick. Hard for me to debate Arnold. We agree on *most.... I haven't found a topic yet I disagree with him on.

Yes, I have a long day ahead of me too...YIKES! (Just noticed the time.)

Thanks for jumping in to the discussion. We can further it in the next day or two.

 

[donnay]

I am sorry Donnay, I did not. With my daughter being so sick, my time at the computer and for study has dropped tremendously. She is doing the homebound program for school right now.. and my time has just gone POOF! I have been backing off on posting a lot because its hard for me to keep up with the long threads and debates and a lot of times when I do jump in and havent followed well, I end up making stupid and irrelevant posts because I haven't been able to follow closely.
I would highly suggest that as many as can, should watch the videos that I posted. I believe that the feasts are also important to Christians. Learning about the Feasts was HUGE for my walk with the Lord. Not that I officially celebrate them, but it entirely changed my perspective on how God operates and how He sees many things.
The feasts are so important that even during the thousand year reign of Christ, the feast of tabernacles will still be celebrated. See Zechariah 14. The entire chapter of Zechariah 14 is about the return of Christ but verse 16 says that tabernacles will still be observed.
I wish I had the time that I used to have to get more into the debates and discussions, but taking care of my daughter is taking so much time now. Different schedules, different menus, lots of cleaning and homework, etc...

I will keep your daughter in my prayers. I hope you will get the time to watch the video and come back to the discussion/debate. I do miss seeing you here, but I understand you have your hands full.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

It may be clear to you that way, but we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one here. I see them as happening at the same time, not different times. That is how it reads to me. I Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. This is in regards to Christ's coming & directed to believers, no doubt. Who made the rule that Revelation 11: 15-19 was a different & separate event? Same thing with the Corinthians reference. I'm sure somebody well-edjycated somewhere made that decision. I choose not to follow anyone's doctrine but God's long ago. All are telling of the events of the last days of this earth age.

Big "r" Rapture or little "r" rapture & the timeline are the debates. I dislike the term rapture because I do think it is deceptive & that it has been used as a tool, like so many Godly things, for just that- the subtle deception. As a result many folk are indeed going to be deceived -- waiting around to "fly away" with Jesus somewhere... that is what this is about. The folk who aren't prepared for the trials & tribulations that are headed our way & are looking for an early way out. Let's face it-- no one wants their friends, family, kiddos to witness the ugly parts of what is coming. I was joking bout Darby.

I do not use the term 'rapture' either, but the 'catching up' or the 'transformation' or the 'transfiguration.' The problem is that the term 'rapture' is a good one, but it has now been loaded with a bunch of malarkey that it's hard to separate the word from it.

There will absolutely be a transfiguration. The event is what much of the Church calls a 'rapture,' but the rapture will not be what 95% of the Church thinks it is.

 

[Terry1]

Well I think donnay did bring up a good point about the rapture that caused me to take another look at scripture. I used to be of the mindset that the rapture would happen before the tribulation, but everything I saw noted that this is going to happen much closer to the end of the seven year trib than before it. The Day of the Lord is mentioned throughout the Old and New testament and always refers to the coming of the Lord--this is when He calls all of His saints from the four winds and also seemed to indicate that this is when the dead in Christ will rise and then the living be taken up. This is just what I have noticed--I could well be wrong in my interpretation, but it seems to match scripture.

The full wrath of God isn't poured out until the end of the trib, this would also seem to match scripture that tells us that the Lords children are not appointed to the wrath of God. I'm not too worried about when the rapture is going to happen, but that whenever it does that I'll be ready when the Lord calls us home.

 

[Ronin Truth]

I'm just too busy keeping an eye on the Dome of the Rock to speculate about the Rapture.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Well I think donnay did bring up a good point about the rapture that caused me to take another look at scripture. I used to be of the mindset that the rapture would happen before the tribulation, but everything I saw noted that this is going to happen much closer to the end of the seven year trib than before it. The Day of the Lord is mentioned throughout the Old and New testament and always refers to the coming of the Lord--this is when He calls all of His saints from the four winds and also seemed to indicate that this is when the dead in Christ will rise and then the living be taken up. This is just what I have noticed--I could well be wrong in my interpretation, but it seems to match scripture.

The full wrath of God isn't poured out until the end of the trib, this would also seem to match scripture that tells us that the Lords children are not appointed to the wrath of God. I'm not too worried about when the rapture is going to happen, but that whenever it does that I'll be ready when the Lord calls us home.

Consider for a moment the operative phrase, "and we shall be changed." Whatever one calls this event, the "rapture" or the "catching up," one of the primary components is that we are transformed into our immortal bodies. Transfigured.

Now, assuming for the sake of discussion that we have put on our transfigured glorified immortal bodies, and we are still hanging out on the Earth. A meteorite comes straight out of space and hits me right in the head. What happens to me?

Literally nothing.

I will not now get into a discussion about whether we are picked up and tossed about in the atmosphere for a while, because I do not believe it is relevant to this point. The point about believers not being appointed to wrath while completely true, has no bearing here, because once we have been transfigured we could bathe in the outpouring vials of wrath and never even notice it. Do you understand what I am saying?

Once we are transformed, we can no longer be hurt, or even minutely affected by any event in space-time. So it doesn't much matter whether we are in the air, in the realm of eternity, or standing dead center on ground zero when the mountain of fire hits the Earth. As far as the transformed are concerned, these three are nearly equal; excepting that it's always better to be in eternity.

We don't actually need to be "gone" to not be appointed to wrath, we could instead simply be totally immune from all calamity, and STILL be "not appointed to wrath" while that wrath is burning inches from our face. Do you see what I mean?

 

[Terry1]

Consider for a moment the operative phrase, "and we shall be changed." Whatever one calls this event, the "rapture" or the "catching up," one of the primary components is that we are transformed into our immortal bodies. Transfigured.

Now, assuming for the sake of discussion that we have put on our transfigured glorified immortal bodies, and we are still hanging out on the Earth. A meteorite comes straight out of space and hits me right in the head. What happens to me?

Literally nothing.

I will not now get into a discussion about whether we are picked up and tossed about in the atmosphere for a while, because I do not believe it is relevant to this point. The point about believers not being appointed to wrath while completely true, has no bearing here, because once we have been transfigured we could bathe in the outpouring vials of wrath and never even notice it. Do you understand what I am saying?

Once we are transformed, we can no longer be hurt, or even minutely affected by any event in space-time. So it doesn't much matter whether we are in the air, in the realm of eternity, or standing dead center on ground zero when the mountain of fire hits the Earth. As far as the transformed are concerned, these three are nearly equal; excepting that it's always better to be in eternity.

We don't actually need to be "gone" to not be appointed to wrath, we could instead simply be totally immune from all calamity, and STILL be "not appointed to wrath" while that wrath is burning inches from our face. Do you see what I mean?

That is an interesting perspective, still we are all left not knowing the day or the hour as measured in Gods time not ours. I don't think there's a believer on earth who doesn't have the hope that we'll be spared the terrible times of the great tribulation, still that's not enough to make me believe that we won't have to endure a good portion of it, but when the time comes--we will be ready. Jesus said--not to worry about what tomorrow would bring because the evil of the day is sufficient enough that we are to focus on that and that alone.

 

[Ronin Truth]

It's been a while, so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the first 3.5 years of the tribulation supposed to be all sunshine, roses and lollipops followed by 3.5 years of SHTF hell on Earth?

 

[Terry1]

It's been a while, so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the first 3.5 years of the tribulation supposed to be all sunshine, roses and lollipops followed by 3.5 years of SHTF hell on Earth?

Yeah, pretty much Ronin. I've even had the thought based upon what I've read in scripture that we could very well be living in the first half of the trib now being called the "time of sorrows". Again--it's just a thought I had.

 

[jllundqu]

lol... no.

No rapture.

 

[Nang]

The "rapture" is the final resurrection, which will be a universal event on the Last Day. See John 5:28-29.

 

[donnay]

The "rapture" is the final resurrection, which will be a universal event on the Last Day. See John 5:28-29.

Rapture?

John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

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1 Cor 15:51-55

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)

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Matt 24:21-25

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before. (KJV)

God's Elect shall be on the earth during the Great Tribulation! What did Jesus mean when He said: "Behold, I have told you before"? He was telling us about the false messiah, the spurious messiah, the antichrist whom is satan that shall come to this earth claiming to be the true Messiah. it is written that this antichrist (beast) shall be endowed with supernatural powers to deceive.

Rev 13:12-15

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. (KJV)

Now if all the Christians are Raptured out prior to this, then who is it that are willing to lay down their lives rather than worship this false one? Many on the earth who are waiting for a 'Rapture of the Saints' will believe that the antichrist really is the True Jesus Christ. Could this antichrist fake some kind of 'rapturing' in several stages to deceive the Rapture believing Christians into helping him identify those who are resisting him? Perhaps, it just isn't written, other than that satan (antichrist) will have powers above the ability of men. That is the danger in the Rapture theories, they don't warn the people that there are two saviors coming, first the false savior antichrist, then after him, the True Savior Jesus Christ comes at His Second Advent.

Continued...