Chris Christie signs bill banning gay conversion therapy

[Christian Liberty]

But how could it possibly be considered "abusive" to simply talk to a counselor? And parents force their kids to do certain things all the time, that's part of parenting. And yes, a parent doesn't have the right to physically abuse a child and infringe on their rights. But, generally speaking, I want parents to have the right to raise their children, not the government. (And even "physical abuse" has to be defined very narrowly, as to not turn parents into criminals for spanking their child.)

I agree. Keep government involvement to a minimum.

Of course, if you give them even that inch, they'll take a mile, apparently with the approval of some in the "liberty movement."

 

[Danan]

How do you think this law is enforced if therapists refuse to stop giving therapy to children who are gay?

What do you mean by, "refuse to stop giving therapy"? Do you mean even though there is a valid court ruling of some sort they obduct the child and "treat" him/her anyway?

 

[Danan]

But how could it possibly be considered "abusive" to simply talk to a counselor? And parents force their kids to do certain things all the time, that's part of parenting. And yes, a parent doesn't have the right to physically abuse a child and infringe on their rights. But, generally speaking, I want parents to have the right to raise their children, not the government. (And even "physical abuse" has to be defined very narrowly, as to not turn parents into criminals for spanking their child.)

It depends on the environment and the content of that councelling I guess. If there is a considerably higher suicide rate among children within such a programm that might be an indicator of an abusive environment which being forced to be in might cross the line, for example. I don't know if that's the case, and even if I'm not saying that would necessarily be a perfect argument to justify force to get the child out of there (with the kid's consent). I'm just saying those would be arguments that wouldn't be completely ridiculous and saying something like that wouldn't make you "not a libertarian" in my opinion.

 

[Dogsoldier]

I said

"Ok who's children are they? Mine or the government? I'll decide for MY children."

Then this is what some gays said to me.

" Nobody should have the right to mentally abuse their children."

"They aren't YOURS, they are citizens of the USA and entitled to protection from abuse... You have a child... but they don't belong to you, like a piece of property."



What frikkin country is this? So according to gays a parent doesn't have the right to teach that being gay is wrong? Children belong to the government now? This also violates freedom of religion at least those that believe being gay is wrong.

Gays are completely missing the boat when it comes to this "gay rights" real meaning "gay privleges".

When it comes to marriage their not even fighting for their "right" to get married their begging the government for "permission" to get married...Nothing more...

This is getting ridiculous...

 

[TaftFan]

Definite freedom of religion violation here. Get a rope...err...cable. Christie would break a rope.

And while we're at it, ban donuts.

 

[jkob]

I said

"Ok who's children are they? Mine or the government? I'll decide for MY children."

Then this is what some gays said to me.

" Nobody should have the right to mentally abuse their children."

"They aren't YOURS, they are citizens of the USA and entitled to protection from abuse... You have a child... but they don't belong to you, like a piece of property."



What frikkin country is this? So according to gays a parent doesn't have the right to teach that being gay is wrong? Children belong to the government now? This also violates freedom of religion at least those that believe being gay is wrong.

Gays are completely missing the boat when it comes to this "gay rights" real meaning "gay privleges".

When it comes to marriage their not even fighting for their "right" to get married their begging the government for "permission" to get married...Nothing more...

This is getting ridiculous...

You can teach your child whatever you want but it won't change their sexual orientation no matter how hard you pray or how much you pound it in their head that they'll burn in hell for it. All you will be doing is teaching your child is to hate themselves and later you for teaching them that. If you can't love your child because they're homosexual then you're not much of a parent.

You don't have the right to abuse or torture another individual, your child or not.

As I said earlier in this thread, I doubt you guys would be so gung ho if 'conversion therapy' was done to terrorists. How about Bradley Manning? You guys wouldn't have trouble calling it what it truly is then.

 

[RickyJ]

Are the pastors using electric shock therapy?

They use a force way more powerful than that, they use the word of God, sharper than any two edged sword, dividing even soul and spirit, joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires and judges them.

 

[DamianTV]

Three Points:

First Point: Medical Shock Therapy isnt the torturous methods most of us have an image of from movies with insane asylums form the 1960's. Shock therapy today is typically administered while the patient is sedated and unconscious. I believe even people like Michael J. Fox (could be wrong on MJF) have tried shock therapy for treating his Parkinsons Disease. Its not just throwing as much electricity between two wetted cotton tissues applied to the temples. And some shock therapy has shown very positive results to many patients. Subcranial electroshock therapy is also being used to help people with tourettes control their symptoms.

Second Point: The only REAL SIN here is that people that are all against homosexuality refuse to mind their own fucking business.

Third Point: Oh, people really care about that. Lets get involved and find a way to fuck it up for everyone.

 

[DamianTV]

They use a force way more powerful than that, they use the word of God, sharper than any two edged sword, dividing even soul and spirit, joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires and judges them.

Hmm, replace Homosexuality with Emotional Dependancy on a Church. Yep, it is more powerful, and a very dangerous tool. Like doing brain surgery with a Semi Truck.

 

[Sola_Fide]

And like Pavlov's dogs, you salivate every time you have an opportunity to promote your myopic worldview.
I'm an atheist. Personally, I believe your particular beliefs, AquaBuddha, to be a symptom of mental illness...perhaps scrupulosity, but I'm not a mental health professional. Unlike you, I won't paint all believers with the same broad brush you paint infidels. It's essentially your particular viewpoints that I find reprehensible. You make a pretense at logic, and are quick to point out your detractor's fallacies, yet repeatedly pepper your own comments with Ad Hominem and No True Scotsman fallacies, so if you are not clinically disturbed, you are at the very least a hypocrite and false witness. My personal belief in this matter is: If the government wants it, I'm against it. , so your assessment about atheism, once again, is wrong....better luck next time (which means the very next thread you comment on).

Yes. I understand. And when the government begins to clamp down controls and send Christians to re-education camps for their "mental illness", atheists like yourself will be the first to waffle on freedom and accept the impositions as for the overall good.

This is because atheism is a collectivist worldview at its foundation and cannot sustain a free society.

 

[Brett85]

What do you mean by, "refuse to stop giving therapy"? Do you mean even though there is a valid court ruling of some sort they obduct the child and "treat" him/her anyway?

I mean if a parent decides to disobey this law and send their gay child to a Christian counselor to try to convert them to heterosexuality, the parent and the counselor will get thrown in prison for violating this law. A large number of people here support that as well, throwing innocent people in prison who committed no crime except for following the teachings of the Bible. Some so called "libertarians" here believe in criminalizing Christianity.

 

[jmdrake]

I support a ban before the age of 12, between 12 and 18 with parental consent and after 18 fully legal.

In return for this approach, ALL organizations performing this therapy must specify that it does not work and is not supported by modern science.

Modern science supports the idea that sexual preference is not an accident of birth. So I guess you should be banned.

Any child who attempts suicide as a result of this therapy should be removed by CPS.

Is that tolerant enough for you people?

The idea that suicide is tied to gay conversion therapy is a left wing contrived myth. Anyone who propagates that myth should be locked away in an insane asylum. Is that tolerant enough for you?

 

[JCDenton0451]

Modern science supports the idea that sexual preference is not an accident of birth.

Really? What's your source on this?

 

[V3n]

I think people saying the practice should not be outlawed really just don't understand what it is. Here are some examples of people's experience in the "therapy"..

http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/2012/02/22286/

The one experience that has stood out and has raised eyebrows across the world was my last session with a JONAH “life coach” (a self described ex gay) who manipulated me into removing my clothing and touching myself in a locked room as he looked on.

http://www.advocate.com/commentary/...y-happens-during-reparative-therapy?page=full

Three years into the therapy I suffered a physical and mental breakdown precipitated by prolonged, near-fatal doses of five concurrent psychotropic medications, one of the many ways Alfonzo “helped” suppress my libido so that I could “flip over to the other side” (to heterosexuality). When it became clear, despite the medications and almost-daily “feeling therapy,” that my same-sex erotic desires were not diminishing, Alfonzo ordered me to bottle my feces and to sniff it whenever I was attracted to a man. “You need to be reminded where homosexual men stick their penis,” he said. “You need to be reminded that homosexual relations are not pleasurable.” When none of that worked — I was still attracted to men, only now all erotic desire seemed to elicit the smell of feces — Alfonzo threatened to hook my genitals up to electrodes.

http://pix11.com/2013/08/19/gay-con...nj-bans-controversial-practice/#axzz2cVtuBLYo

“The therapy went as far as, you know, including Viagra pills, as far as including all these different kind of techniques . . . for masturbation,” said Shurka.

So really.. [Some of] You believe drugging children, making them touch themselves in front of adults, ordering them to carry a bottle of their own feces, giving them vomit-inducing drugs, and sometimes shock therapy is all well and good if the Parents decide that's what they want for their children?

This is all abuse and should be outlawed! It's not "anti-libertarian" to when the Rights of the Child are being abused. I'm not Authoritarian, but I'm not an Anarchist either. Murder is against the law, that's fine, this type of abuse against children should be too.

 

[jmdrake]

As someone who strongly believes being gay isn't a choice, I would view such a practice as a form of brainwashing, personally. But if people want to attempt to get brainwashed or possibly ruin themselves psychologically, it's still their choice. My problem lies with parents who try to "get the gay out of" their children by forcing them into these programs which some have gone as far as to describe as abusive based on personal experiences.

I'm curious. You understand that the entire brain is plastic right? So why would you believe sexual preference is unchangeable from birth? And further, brainwashing only works on things that are changeable. So the very fact that you believe it is brainwashing undermines your own belief that sexual preference is unchangeable from birth.

I wonder

How much "therapy" does it take to turn a straight person gay?

I've personally known someone who was straight most of their life and became gay. That person didn't say "I secretly liked both genders all my life." But because of liberal brainwashing, many people will say "That person was just a confused bisexual."

 

[jmdrake]

Really? What's your source on this?

http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx
What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?

There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

The scientific consensus is that there is no consensus on what causes sexual preference.

 

[jmdrake]

I think people saying the practice should not be outlawed really just don't understand what it is. Here are some examples of people's experience in the "therapy"..

That argument is akin to saying "Because some libertarians are satanists, all libertarians are satanists."

 

[Danan]

I think people saying the practice should not be outlawed really just don't understand what it is. Here are some examples of people's experience in the "therapy"..

http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/2012/02/22286/



http://www.advocate.com/commentary/...y-happens-during-reparative-therapy?page=full



http://pix11.com/2013/08/19/gay-con...nj-bans-controversial-practice/#axzz2cVtuBLYo



So really.. [Some of] You believe drugging children, making them touch themselves in front of adults, ordering them to carry a bottle of their own feces, giving them vomit-inducing drugs, and sometimes shock therapy is all well and good if the Parents decide that's what they want for their children?

This is all abuse and should be outlawed! It's not "anti-libertarian" to when the Rights of the Child are being abused. I'm not Authoritarian, but I'm not an Anarchist either. Murder is against the law, that's fine, this type of abuse against children should be too.

So you are against religious freedom, right?

 

[JCDenton0451]

http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx
What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?

There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

The scientific consensus is that there is no consensus on what causes sexual preference.

True, which means your previous statement was obviously false.

Modern science supports the idea that sexual preference is not an accident of birth.

 

[jmdrake]

True, which means your previous statement was obviously false.

Do you have a problem reading?

Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles;

Scientists believing that nature and nurture play complex roles (in sexual orientation) means there is scientific support for the idea that sexual preference is not an accident of birth. That is unless you believe these scientists are believing this for no reason whatsoever. Or maybe you just don't understand science. There is no scientific consensus on what killed the dinosaurs. That doesn't mean there isn't scientific evidence that a meteor shower killed them.