Can the Constitution Ever Truly Be Obeyed??

libertygrl

Member
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
2,619
I had a question posed to me by my brother. When Bush was in office for 8 years, anything I told my brother regarding Bush's abuse of power and the shadow government was met with a rolling of his eyes like I was some kind of conspiracy freak. However, now that Obama is in office, he is more receptive to read articles that I send him, which is a good thing!

When we were talking the other day and I said something to the effect that the politicians no longer follow the constitution, he said that the constitution is difficult to follow because some many people have their own interpretations of it - like the 2nd amendment for instance.

I was taken a little aback and didn't know how to respond. I'm sure there are several amendments that are not open to interpretation and that some people with their own agendas will twist things around to suit their own purposes. How should I have responded? It sounds like a cop out for a politician not to follow the constitution simply because he feels some parts of it are open to interpretation. Personally, I think that's crap! What do you guys think?
 
I think the proper question is whether or not it can be enforced.

The one time the Constitution was really tested arguments failed and the result was war. Since then, it has been a dead issue. Might makes right, apparently. As Garret Garrett pointed out in "The Revolution Was", quoting Aristotle, the most successful revolutions maintain the old forms. Although he was speaking of the New Deal, the analysis applies to Lincoln. The flaws have been inherent in the Constitution from the beginning. We have the present form of government we have because that is what was intended from the start. The Bill of Rights was only a speedbump on the road to tyranny. We have gone from Lincoln wadding up and stuffing the Constitution in the hole in the side of the hull of the sinking ship of state to GW's "it's just a g.d. piece of paper" to a President now about whom you wonder if he has ever even read the Constitution.

As Joe Sobran famously said, "The Constitution poses no threat to our present form of government".
 
The Constitution has a built-in mechanism for determining the proper interpretation. It's called the Supreme Court of the United States. It ain't perfect, but it does provide a final word as intended.
 
If you really think the SCOTUS is a check on the federal government, think about who appoints them, who promotes them, and who pays their salaries. Review their relation with Jackson, Lincoln, the Reconstruction Congress, and of course FDR. This is not something that magically happened only lately. Read Melancthon Smith's essay during the Ratification debates on the inherent flaw of an unchecked Supreme Court. John Marshall quickly took advantage of the situation. Granted, if you still believe in the Constitution, it's all we have. But don't let hope triumph over experience.
 
Last edited:
The correct response would have been to chide him for using such a subjective approach to the Constitution.

The correct approach is an objective standard, similar to the reasonable person standard in tort and contract law. The correct approach is not to divine your own meaning for the constitution, but instead to ask: How would the average American in 1789 have understood this document?

Same thing with the amendments. Ask how the average person at the time of the amendment's passage would have understood it, and then apply that understanding to the 1789 understanding it replaces or modifies.

The reason we use such objective standards in law is that subjective standards are often self-serving and really don't give any worthwhile assistance to resolving disputes.

Forget original intent. It's useless. There were 55 people with their hands in the pie, each wanting a different thing. Instead, focus on what made it into the document; how that language was sold to the doubters (i.e., the Anti-Federalists and ratification opponents) through the recorded materials we have available (i.e., Notes from the convention, from the state conventions, and that appeared in newspapers); and after all that is considered, how the average American would have understood it when Congress first sat in 1789.
 
Last edited:
Yes, I meant to say enforcement. That was the key word missing.

Thank you for providing me with much well though out responses. I'll have to do some further reading on constitutional history and law! I will certainly take all of your thoughts into consideration. Thanks..
 
I think the proper question is whether or not it can be enforced.

The one time the Constitution was really tested arguments failed and the result was war. Since then, it has been a dead issue. Might makes right, apparently. As Garret Garrett pointed out in "The Revolution Was", quoting Aristotle, the most successful revolutions maintain the old forms. Although he was speaking of the New Deal, the analysis applies to Lincoln. The flaws have been inherent in the Constitution from the beginning. We have the present form of government we have because that is what was intended from the start. The Bill of Rights was only a speedbump on the road to tyranny. We have gone from Lincoln wadding up and stuffing the Constitution in the hole in the side of the hull of the sinking ship of state to GW's "it's just a g.d. piece of paper" to a President now about whom you wonder if he has ever even read the Constitution.

As Joe Sobran famously said, "The Constitution poses no threat to our present form of government".

Nicely said, sir! :cool:
 
from foofighter

How would the average American in 1789 have understood this document?

Which would be great as long as the average American of 2009 lives under the same conditions as the average American of 1789 did. Libertarianism needs to be a philosophy of today and of the future. Always looking back to the imagined glory days of the 18th century does precious little for handling the world of today or of tomorrow.
 
from foofighter

Which would be great as long as the average American of 2009 lives under the same conditions as the average American of 1789 did. Libertarianism needs to be a philosophy of today and of the future. Always looking back to the imagined glory days of the 18th century does precious little for handling the world of today or of tomorrow.

I agree. Don't think for a second I'm denying this wisdom. But remember the Constitution is the law of the land, and we get in trouble every time we let changes in the language affect our understanding of the wisdom in that document.

Take the world welfare--please. In 1789, welfare did not mean what my grandparents called 'relief'. In 1789, welfare meant the ability to fare well--and implied faring well under your own steam. It was the Great Society that hijacked that word.

So, we can't live in the past, no. But those who refuse to learn from it are still condemned to repeat it. We must find that balance.
 
Who said anything about living in some so-called glory days?

I'm using a simple legal standard of contract interpretation.

If two companies have a contract for 75 years, and then there's a contract dispute, you interpret the contract as it was understood at the time it was made. You don't go back and change the meaning of anything, otherwise you've negated the consent of one party by changing the meaning. If you change the meaning after the fact, then you don't have a contract any more, as one party never consented to that meaning.

The same ought to apply to the Constitution. If a society has a social contract in the form of a constitution, one should interpret it the same as it was understood at the time the contract was made.

This "glory days" attack is an empty, fallacious canard, since
1) there's a process available to adapt the Constitution to today's needs, and
2) generally with a constitutional problem where the text isn't explicit, the answer is to derive what principles you can from the document and apply them to today's problem. If you don't get the answer you want from #2, then refer to #1.​

I think it's pretty silly for a user on a libertarian web forum to argue against one party's voluntary consent to an agreement. If you are arguing against mutual consent, then you aren't a libertarian.

And if you aren't a libertarian, then what the hell is the matter with you? :p :D
 
Last edited:
You seem to be forgetting one major thing here Foofighter ....... the Constitution was written with enough vagaries and enough elasticity that it was never intended to be frozen in time as unyielding and unchanging.

Lets look at one simply change that caused major change in many other areas that proves this point. And it was a change that occurred in the time of the Founding Fathers themselves. The Constitution says not a single word about the US Supreme Court being able to judge a law passed by Congress as being unconstitutional. There is nothing in the Constitution about that. But just 16 years after it was written, the US Supreme Court invented for itself that power. They siezed it. They took it. They invented it for themselves without any mention of it in the Constitution.

Instead of listing specific judicial powers, all Article III says is "the judicial powers..." . The Constitution never defines what those judicial powers are. It does not say that the Supreme Court can rule a law passed by Congress and signed into law by the President is not longer valid or legal. That specific power is not given to the Court by the Constitution.

What was the reaction in 1803 among the remainder of the Founding Fathers that such a radical change in the Constitution had occurred right before their eyes and a branch of the federal government had seized powers not even mentioned in the Constitution? Nothing. Nada. Zip. They did nothing. In fact, many of them were serving in the Congress in 1803 and were anxious to take the power for themselves to rewrite the Federal Judiciary Act of 1789 which was thrown out by the Supreme Court.

Since that date over 200 years ago, the SCOTUS has used that seized power many times to bring about wide sweeping change in both the government and the society of the USA.

Why is there not debate about the power of judicial review when it was not even mentioned in the US Constitution? Why did not the original Framers who were still alive scream bloody murder about this seizing of power by the Court?

The simple answer is that Article III of the Constitution was written on purpose to be vague and flexible so that the Court system could evolve and develop as the nation evolved and developed. This is proof that the idea of flexibility and change was intended to be part of the Constitution from the moment pen was put to paper in 1787.
 


Why is there not debate about the power of judicial review when it was not even mentioned in the US Constitution? Why did not the original Framers who were still alive scream bloody murder about this seizing of power by the Court?

The simple answer is that Article III of the Constitution was written on purpose to be vague and flexible so that the Court system could evolve and develop as the nation evolved and developed. This is proof that the idea of flexibility and change was intended to be part of the Constitution from the moment pen was put to paper in 1787.


So then the elaborate process for amending the Constitution is just window dressing?
Ahh! The Mother of All Conspiracy Theories!!!
 
Last edited:
Obviously, the Amendment process is necessary to change something specifically detailed in the Constitution. Giving females the right to vote when the original document did nto give them that right would be one clear example.
 
Obviously, the Amendment process is necessary to change something specifically detailed in the Constitution. Giving females the right to vote when the original document did nto give them that right would be one clear example.

1. Before the 15th Amd., the Const. left voter qualifications to the states.
2. Since the 15th, the Const. has only dealt with state qualifications concerning sex, race, and poll taxes. States are still free to discriminate on any other ground it can legally justify.
3. Women could vote before the 19th. They just couldn't vote in all jurisdictions.

I think your understanding of the Constitution, constitutional law, federalism, and constitutional history are a little underdeveloped here...

Read the exact language.
Section 1: The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Section 2: Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

The Nineteenth Amendment doesn't give anything to anyone. Look at the text and you'll find no right to vote for women. The U.S. and the states can deny a woman the right to vote, so long as it doesn't deny the right solely because of her gender.

Instead, what it does is prohibits both the federal government and the states from denying U.S. citizens the right to vote, all other things being equal (i.e., there's no constitutional right to vote when we are talking about convicts; if they get to vote, it's only because the state allows them to vote; see 14th amd. Sec 2.).
 
Last edited:
foofighter

So it is time for word parsing and word weasling is it? and yes, I park in a driveway and drive through a parkway... but that hardly changes the actual usage and function of both now does it?

If you cannot admit the actual, real life, real world, change brought about by the passage of the 19th Amendment, then you need a good US History book right along side of that copy of the Constitution you have in front of you. The historical record is clear: the passage of the 19th Amendment to the Constitution made it legally possible for the vast majority of qualified females in the USA to vote because they previously were barred and prevented from doing so.

And you miss the point about judicial review. The US Constitution does not give the Supreme Court the power to rule any law as unconstitutional. Some states gave the power to their courts. Some states did not. That power was NOT listed in the US Constitution as belonging to the US Supreme Court. If so, please quote chapter and verse for me.
 
Last edited:
On the 19th Amendment:

I think you misunderstand my point. And it comes from a lack of having read all the case law and understanding several key legal distinctions. So, before attempting to pick apart anything I say, read the whole thing. If you get hung up on one item and start considering your response before you finish reading it all, then you are probably going to miss a key point.

From a legally theoretical standpoint:
1. Government cannot give you rights. Remember, rights precede the existence of government. Government can only protect those rights, though as we have sadly seen in our day in age, sometimes they don't.

2. Conversely, government can bestow privileges, and can thus take them away. You need to understand the distinct differences between these two legal terms.​

From the pragmatic application of theory:
3. Voting has never been a right in the theoretical sense. It's been called a right, but it's as much a right as a "right to health care" is a right. If it were a right, then why can't children or infants vote; why can't immigrants vote; why can't inmates vote; why can't the mentally handicapped or the mentally insane vote; why can't non-residents vote? Remember governments are supposed to protect rights.

4. Item 3 reveals a simple truth: voting is a privilege government extends to its citizens. However, in certain instances, the government has extended the privilege as a pseudo-matter of right. And it's only where government has done so that the Amendments we are discussing come into play.​

In the entire history of early America, voting was a privilege granted to adult, white males. Post-Civil War, the constitution required states not withhold the privilege on account of race, then later on account of sex, failure to pay any tax, and most recently on age of the voter if that person is over 18 years old.

However, none of these amendments grant the right to vote. A state could theoretically change the selection process of all its currently-elected offices to be selection by state-wide random selection/lottery. In that case, no one has the right to vote for any office, yet their rights are not being violated. It's simply an example of where the state has done away with the privilege of voting.

Therefore, essentially, the so-called "right" to vote for women, et al., only becomes a "right" where the state has extended that privilege 1) to some other class of citizen, 2) made that privilege a matter of right for that other class, and 3) the person is not disqualified by any other legally justifiable qualification. In other words, the voter denied the privilege is only being disqualified on the basis of one of those prohibited criterion.

Thus, saying the 19th amendment gave any right to anyone just doesn't hold water. What it did was required government to extend the privilege without regard to a voter's sex, but only if it was extending the privilege to begin with.

Before the 19th, women were extended the franchise. Look at Wyoming and several of the other Rocky Mountain states. Women there could vote before the 19th. It was only after the 19th that all states became required to not disqualify a voter on the criteria of gender.

Could men vote before? Yes. Could women? Not necessarily. What about after the 19th: could women vote then? Not necessarily. They could only vote if men were allowed to vote. If the vote was women only, then the state was violating the 19th. Same the other way around. If women couldn't vote because nobody could vote, then there's no violation.

Thus, don't mistake the practical outcome for what the constitutional language itself does.

It appears you are making a logical mistake that I like to call "mistaken reversal": "If P, then Q" does not equate to "If Q, then P." "If you're female, then you can't vote" doesn't equate to "If you can't vote, then you're female." At least, these conditionals are how I'm understanding what you are saying, neither of which are true in either case.

As I said, Wyoming and the other western states prove the falsity of those conditional claims. There was no 19th amendment in the 1890s, but women in several of the western states could exercise the privilege of the franchise, precisely because their states had extended it to them. They didn't get the "right" to vote, they got the privilege of voting.


Now, onto Marbury v. Madison:

As I said in the post I linked, judicial review is inherent in a constitutional system unless expressly denied. What's more, the power of judicial review is visibly inherent in the judicial power of the U.S. Const. While you may not be able to see it on cursory glance, it's in there.

How so? It's the synthesis of three existing clauses of the Constitution which give the courts this power. It's the same as you saying I don't have a working flashlight; however, I do have a working flashlight bulb, a working flashlight case, and working batteries that fit the flashlight. Thus, once I put the three together, I do have a working flashlight.

Your mistake is in only looking at the individual parts and not seeing what they do when put together, as a whole.

Let's review, shall we?

1. Article III, Section 1.
The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. ...

What more can I say about this when Hamilton (whom on most things I disagree with) said it best: The Courts "may truly be said to have neither FORCE nor WILL, but merely judgment."

That is, the judicial power of the courts is wholly encapsulated in its power of judgment; that is, courts are to take the law as made by the enacting authority (typically the legislature; but, in the sense of the Constitution, the sovereign people and the sovereign states) and are to discern what the will of that enacting authority was. Once so done, the court enters its judgment; that is, it orders the parties to adhere to what the court reasonably believes the enacting authority wanted, not what the court believes to be right or what the court thinks the law ought to be.

As I said, in the case of the Constitution, it's the combined will of the states and the sovereign people, as embodied in the constitutional text, which the court must discern and enforce.

2. Article III, Section 2.
The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority...

This is what gets a case before the federal courts. And once the court has a case, it usually has to decide what to with it according to the law. If a constitutional dispute is raised by a party, the court has to address it (though they will usually only do this as a last resort, seeking to resolve the case on another ground if at all possible before reaching the constitutional question).

3. Article VI.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land...

This is the big one that really makes the power inherent. Remember, it's the Constitution and the laws made in pursuance thereof that are the supreme law. That means Congress, the President, and even the Courts are all inferior to the Constitution.

It's the Constitution which created all three in an organic capacity, and thus the Constitution is itself superior to any of the three branches. Thus, when a party to a suit which the court must resolve makes a constitutional claim, and when the court actually reaches that claim, if the will of Congress or the President conflicts with the will of the people via the Constitution, it's no mystery here who ought to win: the Constitution.

4. The Synthesis of the Three.
As I said in that post I linked, my take on Marbury was that all C.J. Marshall did was state the inherent duty of the court to prefer the Constitution to any ordinary statute when there's a conflict between the two.

I'll use the same example I did last time: Article I, Section 9 prohibits Congress from laying a tax on exports.

If Congress does makes such a law, and some one contests the constitutionality of that tax in court, then all three of these clauses come into play.

1. Is this tax on exports an issue arising under the Constitution or federal law? Clearly so. It arises under federal law.

2. Is this tax on exports made in pursuance of the Constitution? Clearly not. In this instance, the Constitution prohibits Congress from laying such a tax.

3. What then is the court to do? The court is to exercise its judicial power by entering a judgment.

The issue over this tax concerns a dispute between an act of Congress and a provision of the Constitution. Here, the court should enter a judgment against Congress, of course. Congress has no power to make such a law; thus, any act of Congress which creates such a statute is not law. And if it's not law, it's not enforceable as such. It is null and void of any legal force. It is, in a word, unconstitutional.

The ball's in your court now. Justify why the person exporting goods should have to pay the tax since, as you say, the court has no power to pronounce the tax unconstitutional nor any power to enjoin either Congress or the President from enforcing the tax.
 
Last edited:
foofighter
thanks for taking the time to make a long and insightful post.

I do not want to insult you, but so much of what you wrote is the main reason why others get fed up with discussing anything with libertarians or anarchists. So much of it is word parsing, creative definitions, explaining what all the stuff you thought you knew is not really correct, why abstract arguments mean more than real world reality, and other ways to do a modern version of how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin.

I used to do stuff like that and only saw it turn off other people and get them angry - it was like we were living in two different worlds - and we were.

I just see a huge contradiction between being able to accept the "intent" of the Constitution regarding judicial review when it is not even mentioned and outrage that Congress can interpret something like the elastic clause or the general welfare language the way it sees fit. If we fight for the idea of explicit powers in the Constitution and keep to the letter of the Constitution, then we should do so consistently and without exception.

And you misunderstand my main point. I am NOT saying that the Court should not have the power of judicial review. I think it should and it is implied by the clause "the judicial power of the United States shall be vested in one Supreme Court.....". I can use my common sense on that one. So why cannot others use their common sense to make the same jump on other portions of the Constitution?

ANSWER: Because we quarrel with the results of those jumps of common sense. Its all politics and perspective.

I so tire of trying to prove that me or you or any of us knew what all the Founding Fathers were thinking of when they wrote the Constitution. In the end, our ideas either are good for the present day USA or they are not. I wish that was the focus of discussion rather than if our view of a particular clause is more historically accurate than a liberal view of the same clause. In the end, it does little to impact the price of coffee.
 
thanks for taking the time to make a long and insightful post.

I do not want to insult you, but so much of what you wrote is the main reason why others get fed up with discussing anything with libertarians or anarchists. So much of it is word parsing, creative definitions, explaining what all the stuff you thought you knew is not really correct, why abstract arguments mean more than real world reality, and other ways to do a modern version of how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin.

I used to do stuff like that and only saw it turn off other people and get them angry - it was like we were living in two different worlds - and we were.

I derive no insult from what you say in even the slightest.

My only response is that, words, like ideas, as Ron Paul warns us, have very real consequences. Thus, for there to be discussion and complete understanding between two parties, we have to be using words which are as narrowly defined as possible.

Only by doing so do we all together understand what the law says and means.

I just see a huge contradiction between being able to accept the "intent" of the Constitution regarding judicial review when it is not even mentioned and outrage that Congress can interpret something like the elastic clause or the general welfare language the way it sees fit. If we fight for the idea of explicit powers in the Constitution and keep to the letter of the Constitution, then we should do so consistently and without exception.

Well, first off, I don't agree with the doctrine of original intent at all.

I mean, exactly whose intent are we talking about? That of the 39 delegates who signed the Constitution? What about the intent of the 16 who didn't sign? What about the intent of the 12 participating states' legislatures, and the intent of the all the members therein? What about the intent of all the delegates to the ratifying conventions? This doctrine is entirely worthless since, as one can clearly see, it quickly falls apart.

However, originalism is in one aspect a salvageable concept. This is why I advocate the doctrine of original understanding: i.e., how would the average American have understood the document at the time it was ratified?

We can, when taking everything said about the constitution during the ratification process, discern how the average person would have understood it all.
  • There's the text of the Constitution itself.
  • There's dictionaries from both just before and just after that period.
  • There's the debates from the convention itself.
  • There's the Federalist arguments for ratification.
  • There's the Anti-federalist objections to ratification.
  • There's specific assurances to those objections from the Federalists.
  • There are debates in the state legislatures.
  • There are the debates of the state ratifying conventions
  • And, if all of that leaves anything unexplained, then there's period documents like newspaper article that serve the same purpose as everything listed above.

From all of these sources we can easily synthesis a common understanding of just what the Constitution actually says and means, with particular regard to the assurances made by the Federalists in order to get the document ratified. It's those statements which must be given the most weight, as it placated the fears of the Anti-federalists enough to cultivate enough of a consensus to form the social contract.

As such, there are certain sources, like Madison, who will appear in multiple areas of each genus of documents, so for that reason their opinions may carry more weight.

And you misunderstand my main point. I am NOT saying that the Court should not have the power of judicial review. I think it should and it is implied by the clause "the judicial power of the United States shall be vested in one Supreme Court.....". I can use my common sense on that one. So why cannot others use their common sense to make the same jump on other portions of the Constitution?

ANSWER: Because we quarrel with the results of those jumps of common sense. Its all politics and perspective.

I so tire of trying to prove that me or you or any of us knew what all the Founding Fathers were thinking of when they wrote the Constitution. In the end, our ideas either are good for the present day USA or they are not. I wish that was the focus of discussion rather than if our view of a particular clause is more historically accurate than a liberal view of the same clause. In the end, it does little to impact the price of coffee.

I can see your point, but like I said, the opinion of any one framer is irrelevant. The opinions of them all are worth considering, and of course the opinion of some will carry more weight than other. But no single framer is the end-all be-all. That is why the question must be what the average American understood the document to mean, all things considered.
 
I understand your point of originalism foofighter. And I think you explained it well and supported it. I realize I am new here but have been around these discussions in other places for many years. I feel if libertarianism is to succeed as a political philosophy in the USA it must demonstrate to the American people thats its ideas work in the world of today and will make the America of today a better place. I so tire of the endless trying to prove that our view of the Constitution is the right one and everybody else is marching out of step. I fail to see what that gets us.

Let us say that your idea of originalism is 100% valid in many respects. So what? We no longer live in 1787. We no longer are a nation of 4 million people. We no longer occupy a narrow strip along the Atlantic Seaboard containing just 13 states. We are no longer a nation of farmers and small merchants who serve mostly farmers. We no longer function largely as a barter society. We no longer cling to outdated institutions such as slavery and view women as inferiors. We have to contend with powerful institutions that government back then did not have to contend with. We are not isolated from the rest of the world. We are not a primitive backwater nation out of step with the powers of that time. Things have changed.

Why is the opinion of what the Constitution meant in 1787 to people of 1787 valid for a very different world of 2009 and the people who live in it? Are the members of the US Supreme Court suppose to ignore the reality of the nation they live in and pretend that nothing has changed in 222 years?

you conclude with this thought provoking statement

I can see your point, but like I said, the opinion of any one framer is irrelevant. The opinions of them all are worth considering, and of course the opinion of some will carry more weight than other. But no single framer is the end-all be-all. That is why the question must be what the average American understood the document to mean, all things considered.

That makes sense as far as it goes. But can we ever truly and completely know all the thinking and beliefs of all the delegates and principals of the writing of the Constitution? And because we cannot, is not the picture that emerges going to be always an incomplete and flawed picture based on selective information? And just who is the "average American" of 1787? I am not sure we can draw that accurate picture and put ourselves in their head with complete accuracy.

Better we allow what the actual words of the Constitution say in this regard. The judicial powers are vested in the Supreme Court and they will interpret the document for us using the best of their abilities and intelligence to interpret the document itself.
 
Back
Top