Can the Constitution Ever Truly Be Obeyed??

I understand your point of originalism foofighter. And I think you explained it well and supported it. I realize I am new here but have been around these discussions in other places for many years. I feel if libertarianism is to succeed as a political philosophy in the USA it must demonstrate to the American people thats its ideas work in the world of today and will make the America of today a better place. I so tire of the endless trying to prove that our view of the Constitution is the right one and everybody else is marching out of step. I fail to see what that gets us.

Let us say that your idea of originalism is 100% valid in many respects. So what? We no longer live in 1787. We no longer are a nation of 4 million people. We no longer occupy a narrow strip along the Atlantic Seaboard containing just 13 states. We are no longer a nation of farmers and small merchants who serve mostly farmers. We no longer function largely as a barter society. We no longer cling to outdated institutions such as slavery and view women as inferiors. We have to contend with powerful institutions that government back then did not have to contend with. We are not isolated from the rest of the world. We are not a primitive backwater nation out of step with the powers of that time. Things have changed.

Why is the opinion of what the Constitution meant in 1787 to people of 1787 valid for a very different world of 2009 and the people who live in it? Are the members of the US Supreme Court suppose to ignore the reality of the nation they live in and pretend that nothing has changed in 222 years?

you conclude with this thought provoking statement



That makes sense as far as it goes. But can we ever truly and completely know all the thinking and beliefs of all the delegates and principals of the writing of the Constitution? And because we cannot, is not the picture that emerges going to be always an incomplete and flawed picture based on selective information? And just who is the "average American" of 1787? I am not sure we can draw that accurate picture and put ourselves in their head with complete accuracy.

Better we allow what the actual words of the Constitution say in this regard. The judicial powers are vested in the Supreme Court and they will interpret the document for us using the best of their abilities and intelligence to interpret the document itself.

Fail. No government court has the natural right to make judicial decisions. This "right" was made up out of thin air by Federalists and the like. These rights are properly vested in courts agreed upon by the participants in a contractual agreement.

Private law FTW! :cool:
 
boy34

Do not the people of a nation have the right to create a government and invest it with powers agreed upon by the representatives of the people?

If that is your feeling, why then did not the original Founding Fathers, many of whom were still alive and in government in 1803 when Marbury was decided, act upon this or express outrage? They did not. They did nothing and agreed with foofighter and myself that judicial review was inherent in the powers of the judicial branch.

How can anyone today jump on a pedestal and preach about what the Founding Fathers meant in the Constitution when the actual historical record contradicts such preachings? That seems to me to be a huge hole in that position.
 
boy34

Do not the people of a nation have the right to create a government and invest it with powers agreed upon by the representatives of the people?

If that is your feeling, why then did not the original Founding Fathers, many of whom were still alive and in government in 1803 when Marbury was decided, act upon this or express outrage? They did not. They did nothing and agreed with foofighter and myself that judicial review was inherent in the powers of the judicial branch.

How can anyone today jump on a pedestal and preach about what the Founding Fathers meant in the Constitution when the actual historical record contradicts such preachings? That seems to me to be a huge hole in that position.

No they do not have that right. That right assumes that the establishers already own the land and the people who will live on it (since their decision to establish a State usurps the natural rights of future inhabitants).

Since I was not there in 1803, I can only assume that they lacked adherence to principle and virtue. The reason I can "jump on a pedestal" is that I am still subject to the consequences of those men's actions. There is no hole in my position, I assure you. Yours, however, lacks objective morality and grounding in natural law (which many of the founders respected).

For further reading, please see No Treason
The Constitution of No Authority
 
The people of a new nation have the right to determine what government they want. That is basic. Anyone who does not like that new government should also have the right to emigrate elsewhere if they do not want to be a part of it. That is in fact what happened with tens of thousands of British sympathizers who did leave the USA and went to Canada among other places.

from boy34

No they do not have that right. That right assumes that the establishers already own the land and the people who will live on it (since their decision to establish a State usurps the natural rights of future inhabitants).

Future inhabitants have no rights in a nation that they have not yet been born into or immigrated to. I have no rights in any nation other than the one I live in. If you disagree lets put it to the test. You go somewhere else outside the USA and start lecturing them about your natural rights that you have in that country and see how far you get.

Using the concept of natural rights to explain how rights are protected here is one reasonable position. Using the concept of natural rights to explain why somebody who does not even live in a country can negate the will of the people who do actually live in that country is nonsensical.

And if you have not noticed, Lysander Spooner is dead. Has been for quite a long time. So are the political conditions that produced his ideology and writings. Dead as he is. He was a product of the times he lived in. he changed his ideology and his beliefs as his times changed. Were he alive today and a product of these times I highly doubt he would have come to the same anarcho conclusions.

It would be nice if we all realized what century we are living in and looked forward instead of back a hundred and fifty years or more all the time. Libertarianism must be based on the world we live in today and must offer ideas and concepts that are meaningful in todays world if they are to mean anything to large numbers of people. Or we can continue to get less than one-half of one percent of the vote and keep praising the virtues of folks like Lysander Spooner. Spooner votes for nobody these days.
 
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The people of a new nation have the right to determine what government they want. That is basic. Anyone who does not like that new government should also have the right to emigrate elsewhere if they do not want to be a part of it. That is in fact what happened with tens of thousands of British sympathizers who did leave the USA and went to Canada among other places.

from boy34



Future inhabitants have no rights in a nation that they have not yet been born into or immigrated to. I have no rights in any nation other than the one I live in. If you disagree lets put it to the test. You go somewhere else outside the USA and start lecturing them about your natural rights that you have in that country and see how far you get.

Using the concept of natural rights to explain how rights are protected here is one reasonable position. Using the concept of natural rights to explain why somebody who does not even live in a country can negate the will of the people who do actually live in that country is nonsensical.

And if you have not noticed, Lysander Spooner is dead. Has been for quite a long time. So are the political conditions that produced his ideology and writings. Dead as he is. He was a product of the times he lived in. he changed his ideology and his beliefs as his times changed. Were he alive today and a product of these times I highly doubt he would have come to the same anarcho conclusions.

It would be nice if we all realized what century we are living in and looked forward instead of back a hundred and fifty years or more all the time. Libertarianism must be based on the world we live in today and must offer ideas and concepts that are meaningful in todays world if they are to mean anything to large numbers of people. Or we can continue to get less than one-half of one percent of the vote and keep praising the virtues of folks like Lysander Spooner. Spooner votes for nobody these days.
Spooner's death does not invalidate what he said. If that were the case, the Federal and State constitutions would also be invalid, as would Austrian econ. Come now, if this is the "logic" utilized by the freedom movement, it's as good as stillborn. :p
 
After posting my question in this forum, I went out and bought Judge Napolitano's excellent book, "Constitutional Chaos" and highly recommend it. Especially to those of us who have no background in Constitutional History and Law. He once taught Constitutional Law and does a fantastic job explaining everything without all the legalese. I am beginning to comprehend the foundation behind the creation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and understand now that it was a contract between the people and the government. And that the government doesn't grant us these freedoms, they are only meant to uphold them. It's all starting to make much more sense to me now. This book should be required reading in every classroom in American!

Here's some excerpts:

"For thousands of years philosophers, scholars, judges, lawyers, and ordinary folks have debated and argued over different theories suggesting the sources of human freedom. There are many schools of thought addressing these origins. One school, the Natural Law theorists, argues that freedom comes by virtue of being human - from our own nature. The other school, the positivists, argues that freedom comes from the government.

Natural Law theory teaches that the law extends from human nature which is created by God. Thus, the Natural Law theory states that because all human beings desire freedom from artificial restraint and because all human beings yearn to be free, our freedoms stem from our nature - from our very humanity - and ultimately God. St. Thomas Aquinas, the principle modern interpreter of Natural Law, directly contends that because God is perfectly free and humans are created in His image and likeness, our freedoms come from God. The founders held this same basic view.

It means, for example, that our basic freedoms, such as freedom of speech, freedom to travel, of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of association, and freedom from arbitrary restraints, cannot be taken away by the government unless we are convicted of violating natural law - and the government can only convict us if it follows procedural due process.

Because free speech is a natural right and can only be taken away after due process, it cannot be legislatively taken away. Thus, Natural Law protects minority rights from incursion by the majority. Under Natural Law, neither Congress nor any state legislature can declare that freedom of speech no longer exists. Since Natural Law posits that freedom of speech comes ultimately from God, the majority cannot legislate it away.

Critics of Natural Law argue that it is anti-democratic because it prevents the majority from achieving its purpose. Moreover, they contend, since Natural Law is not written down anywhere in precise legal language, it is impossible to tell what rights are protected by it and what are not. Thus critics conclude, a Natural Law theory of government reposes that too much power in the hands of judges to decide what rights are natural and what rights are not, and what areas of human behavior may not be regulated or interfered with by the majority, either directly through a popular vote or indirectly through a legislative enactment.

Positivism is more or less the opposite of Natural Law. Under Positivism, the law is what ever the government in power says it is. Positivism requires that all laws be written down and that there is no theoretical or artificial restraints on the ability of a popularly elected government to enact whatever it wishes.

Critics of Positivism have argued that it leads to tyranny of the majority. These critics remind us that Hitler and his Nazi government were popularly elected, and once in power, under the theory of Positivism, passed all sorts of horrific laws, all of which were lawfully enacted. Because there was no Natural Law to protect the minority, these awful laws became the law of the land.

To a Positivist, the government's goal is to bring about the greatest benefit to the greatest number of people. Under Natural Law, the only legitimate goal of government
is to secure liberty, which is the freedom to obey one's own free will and conscience, rather than the free wills or consciences of others."

- from Constitutional Chaos by Judge Andrew Napolitano
2004 Thomas Nelson Publishers
 
After posting my question in this forum, I went out and bought Judge Napolitano's excellent book, "Constitutional Chaos" and highly recommend it. Especially to those of us who have no background in Constitutional History and Law. He once taught Constitutional Law and does a fantastic job explaining everything without all the legalese. I am beginning to comprehend the foundation behind the creation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and understand now that it was a contract between the people and the government. And that the government doesn't grant us these freedoms, they are only meant to uphold them. It's all starting to make much more sense to me now. This book should be required reading in every classroom in American!

Here's some excerpts:

"For thousands of years philosophers, scholars, judges, lawyers, and ordinary folks have debated and argued over different theories suggesting the sources of human freedom. There are many schools of thought addressing these origins. One school, the Natural Law theorists, argues that freedom comes by virtue of being human - from our own nature. The other school, the positivists, argues that freedom comes from the government.

Natural Law theory teaches that the law extends from human nature which is created by God. Thus, the Natural Law theory states that because all human beings desire freedom from artificial restraint and because all human beings yearn to be free, our freedoms stem from our nature - from our very humanity - and ultimately God. St. Thomas Aquinas, the principle modern interpreter of Natural Law, directly contends that because God is perfectly free and humans are created in His image and likeness, our freedoms come from God. The founders held this same basic view.

It means, for example, that our basic freedoms, such as freedom of speech, freedom to travel, of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of association, and freedom from arbitrary restraints, cannot be taken away by the government unless we are convicted of violating natural law - and the government can only convict us if it follows procedural due process.

Because free speech is a natural right and can only be taken away after due process, it cannot be legislatively taken away. Thus, Natural Law protects minority rights from incursion by the majority. Under Natural Law, neither Congress nor any state legislature can declare that freedom of speech no longer exists. Since Natural Law posits that freedom of speech comes ultimately from God, the majority cannot legislate it away.

Critics of Natural Law argue that it is anti-democratic because it prevents the majority from achieving its purpose. Moreover, they contend, since Natural Law is not written down anywhere in precise legal language, it is impossible to tell what rights are protected by it and what are not. Thus critics conclude, a Natural Law theory of government reposes that too much power in the hands of judges to decide what rights are natural and what rights are not, and what areas of human behavior may not be regulated or interfered with by the majority, either directly through a popular vote or indirectly through a legislative enactment.

Positivism is more or less the opposite of Natural Law. Under Positivism, the law is what ever the government in power says it is. Positivism requires that all laws be written down and that there is no theoretical or artificial restraints on the ability of a popularly elected government to enact whatever it wishes.

Critics of Positivism have argued that it leads to tyranny of the majority. These critics remind us that Hitler and his Nazi government were popularly elected, and once in power, under the theory of Positivism, passed all sorts of horrific laws, all of which were lawfully enacted. Because there was no Natural Law to protect the minority, these awful laws became the law of the land.

To a Positivist, the government's goal is to bring about the greatest benefit to the greatest number of people. Under Natural Law, the only legitimate goal of government
is to secure liberty, which is the freedom to obey one's own free will and conscience, rather than the free wills or consciences of others."

- from Constitutional Chaos by Judge Andrew Napolitano
2004 Thomas Nelson Publishers


Sounds like an interesting read, though I may disagree with him. :cool:
 
Let us say that your idea of originalism is 100% valid in many respects. So what? We no longer live in 1787. We no longer are a nation of 4 million people. We no longer occupy a narrow strip along the Atlantic Seaboard containing just 13 states. We are no longer a nation of farmers and small merchants who serve mostly farmers. We no longer function largely as a barter society. We no longer cling to outdated institutions such as slavery and view women as inferiors. We have to contend with powerful institutions that government back then did not have to contend with. We are not isolated from the rest of the world. We are not a primitive backwater nation out of step with the powers of that time. Things have changed.

All very true, but there's nothing that's changed because the Constitution was adhered to--a lot of the changes you describe were the result of changes that occurred due to people NOT following the Constitution.

All the Constitution does is layout the framework for government. It's not like it completely chains us to the deck of the Titanic. It's clearly capable of handling today's problems, as all it entails is a bare-bones system, easily adaptable to the complications of modern life. The only problem people have with it is that certain portions of the document stand in the way of those I like to call the Grand Schemers.

"Oh, you want a powerful executive capable of protecting us from stubbing our own toes? Sorry, but you're going to need a warrant for that. And you know what else? I'm capable of protecting myself, thanks to the 2nd Amendment. Sounds more like you just want more power to spy on your political enemies"

"Oh, you think that so-called 'greedy' businessmen are holding up the price of a product, when it's more likely the case that they just don't have the capacity to produce enough to meet the demand for it and that the profits they make are a signal to the rest of the market to divert more resources to this industry? So you want to hold down the price of that good, and thereby create a shortage of it for everyone? Where exactly is the power granted to fix prices?"

One important fact: there's nothing about the capacity of the states and municipal governments to handle local problems. Yet you won't find too many believers of that sentiment inside the beltway these days. As James Madison reminded the Anti-Federalist in his essay in the Federalist (no. 45):
The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the Federal Government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State Governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negociation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will for the most part be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects, which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties and properties of the people; and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

The only thing standing in the way of the states performing their domestic functions is funding; it's the fact that the Supreme Court has since interpreted Congress's taxing power to be nigh plenary. The feds can then tax away what the states would get if they taxed themselves. It leaves the states in an inferior position, where they then have to go begging to Washington for the funds they need to do what their constituents want.

That puts Washington in a position of power that it isn't supposed to be in to begin with. It means that the social do-gooders and grand schemers in WDC--who wish to impose their one-size-fits-all, grand designs on the federation--can get all their like-minded cohorts in the federal government to attach innumerable stipulations and conditions (i.e., "strings") to the money they return to the states.

I maintain that this sort of thing going on these days is but the logical consequence of the 17th Amendment. Before the 17th, the state governments had a say in the making of federal law, via the Senate. That state-govt-representation in the Senate acted as a check-and-balance of the states on the federal government. With that gone, there's no longer any state-govt-check to counteract the federal government from elbowing its way into domestic matters the Framers intended to remain solely within the purview of the states and their municipalities.

Why is the opinion of what the Constitution meant in 1787 to people of 1787 valid for a very different world of 2009 and the people who live in it? Are the members of the US Supreme Court suppose to ignore the reality of the nation they live in and pretend that nothing has changed in 222 years?

Again, as I said, the Constitution is a contract. It's a contract between the people of each state with the people of the other states, with the people of each state and their own state government, between the government of one state and the governments of other states, and between the government of each state with the people of the other states. They all came together and made an agreement; they consented to an arrangement, which means that they had a common understanding of what exactly that arrangement entailed.

It's long been a central tenet of contract law that courts interpret each party's understanding from an objective point of view. In order to do that, they borrowed a standard from negligence law: the legal fiction of the reasonable person. Check out the Wikipedia article Reasonable Person (written for the most part by yours truly); in particular, see the reasonable bystander portion.

you conclude with this thought provoking statement

That makes sense as far as it goes. But can we ever truly and completely know all the thinking and beliefs of all the delegates and principals of the writing of the Constitution? And because we cannot, is not the picture that emerges going to be always an incomplete and flawed picture based on selective information? And just who is the "average American" of 1787? I am not sure we can draw that accurate picture and put ourselves in their head with complete accuracy.

Better we allow what the actual words of the Constitution say in this regard. The judicial powers are vested in the Supreme Court and they will interpret the document for us using the best of their abilities and intelligence to interpret the document itself.

1. What any Framers thought or knew is irrelevant to the extent that they didn't write it down and convey their thoughts to the discussion. What they did convey to the discussion is already part of the record, so we have that. If they chose to sit out the discussion and not say anything, then trying to divine what those people thought it pointless.

2. Not really. The whole point is to let both sides make their best argument using their best evidence for the position they chose. This is how our adversarial system has always worked: thesis and antithesis come together, and through the synthesis of the two, truth emerges.

3. As I said above, the standard I propose is not one based on any real person, but is instead based upon the objective understanding of what a reasonable person living at the time most liekly would have thought... It's legal fiction. It's a common tool that courts have used for centuries.
 
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Sounds like an interesting read, though I may disagree with him. :cool:

Please elaborate. It is because you are an atheist? I'm just curious because I was thinking that it might offend some of the atheists on this board! I think the judge was just trying to show the different philosophies and the reasoning behind the founders intent.

Personally, I'm very spiritual (not religious - big difference) - so I don't quite get atheists! But that's freedom! :D
 
Please elaborate. It is because you are an atheist? I'm just curious because I was thinking that it might offend some of the atheists on this board! I think the judge was just trying to show the different philosophies and the reasoning behind the founders intent.

Personally, I'm very spiritual (not religious - big difference) - so I don't quite get atheists! But that's freedom! :D

No, because I'm an anarchist. (I occasionally agree with theists, though I'm a non-theist...tho a spiritual one... myself. )
 
Heavenlyboy - a serious question for you..... how can you live in the USA and partake of all the various societal benefits we have because of government without feeling hypocritical that you are against such things? At what point would you say that you cannot be a part of this society and longer and you would do what our forefathers did when they could no longer be a part of something they did not believe in?
 
I had a question posed to me by my brother. When Bush was in office for 8 years, anything I told my brother regarding Bush's abuse of power and the shadow government was met with a rolling of his eyes like I was some kind of conspiracy freak. However, now that Obama is in office, he is more receptive to read articles that I send him, which is a good thing!

When we were talking the other day and I said something to the effect that the politicians no longer follow the constitution, he said that the constitution is difficult to follow because some many people have their own interpretations of it - like the 2nd amendment for instance.

I was taken a little aback and didn't know how to respond. I'm sure there are several amendments that are not open to interpretation and that some people with their own agendas will twist things around to suit their own purposes. How should I have responded? It sounds like a cop out for a politician not to follow the constitution simply because he feels some parts of it are open to interpretation. Personally, I think that's crap! What do you guys think?

It's not difficult to follow. It is clear as day as what is intended. It's just that the person who heads up the State (criminal organization) chooses the people who go to the Supreme Court (final arbiter), who then decide on the laws the Congress (parasites) make up to oppress people and whether they are legit or not. The judges get picked for a reason. To support their masters wishes, that is why they were picked.

How the State Transcends Its Limits


Heavenlyboy - a serious question for you..... how can you live in the USA and partake of all the various societal benefits we have because of government without feeling hypocritical that you are against such things? At what point would you say that you cannot be a part of this society and longer and you would do what our forefathers did when they could no longer be a part of something they did not believe in?


That's how.
 
Since Rothbard himself has to rationalize the contradictions in his own life and his own beliefs, it is no surprise he would come up with something that says you can drive on government roads in a car mandated safe by the government to a rally to protest government spending and have your right to do so protected by government police officers.

Makes perfect sense to me. :rolleyes:
 
How can you live in the USA and partake of all the various societal benefits [what benefits?] we have because of government [because of theft from individuals] without feeling hypocritical that you are against such things? [He is against the initiation of violence. Why aren't you?] At what point would you say that you cannot be a part of this society and longer and you would do what our forefathers did when they could no longer be a part of something they did not believe in? [Non sequitur]

"The great non sequitur committed by defenders of the State, is to leap from the necessity of society to the necessity of the State." – Murray N. Rothbard

Since Rothbard himself has to rationalize the contradictions in his own life and his own beliefs, it is no surprise he would come up with something that says you can drive on government roads in a car mandated safe by the government to a rally to protest government spending and have your right to do so protected by government police officers.

Makes perfect sense to me. :rolleyes:

No it doesn't, otherwise you'd have understood it. ;)
 
I do not tolerate hypocsiry - regardless if comes from fellow libertarians, democrats, republicans, communists or fascists. I have no patience for anyone who has to reinvent definitions or put normal common sense through a series of convoluted hoops to justify their own hypocrisy when their own actions do not match their beliefs. I think that is one big reason why we continue to get less than one half of one percent of the vote.
 
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Heavenlyboy - a serious question for you..... how can you live in the USA and partake of all the various societal benefits we have because of government without feeling hypocritical that you are against such things? At what point would you say that you cannot be a part of this society and longer and you would do what our forefathers did when they could no longer be a part of something they did not believe in?

Because I am a human who lives on a piece of dirt that happens to be called the USA. My identity transcends my nationality. (many of the founders that I admire felt the same way, btw-which is why the phrase "no king but Jesus" was popular) I'm sorry that yours does not. :( You have some real spiritual and emotional maturing to do, from what you've said here.

(as an aside, by the same logic you used, I could ask you, "how could you live in America and not love everything the government does?")
 
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HB - I make no judgements about your maturity and it would be immature of me to do so. Why must you resort to personal insults and ad hominem attacks against me simply because we disagree?

I do take exception to this

Because I am a human who lives on a piece of dirt that happens to be called the USA. My identity transcends my nationality.

I must assume that you - like all others who live here - were not sentenced here as part of a prison term. You are not being confined here against your will. You chose to live in the USA of your own free will as a free person. You do not just "happen" to live here. It is your choice as a free man to live here. So accept responsibility for your free choice.

Your nationality is part of your identity regardless if you decide to claim it as such or not.
 
I do not tolerate hypocsiry - regardless if comes from fellow libertarians, democrats, republicans, communists or fascists. I have no patience for anyone who has to reinvent definitions or put normal common sense through a series of convoluted hoops to justify their own hypocrisy when their own actions do not match their beliefs. I think that is one big reason why we continue to get less than one half of one percent of the vote.

You're never going to avoid hypocrisy if you want to support the State-it is by nature full of contradictions. (see Conza's reading list for more info :cool:)
 
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