"Attractive hazard" [Orlando Gator attack]

[jmdrake]

I don't know maybe there should be better warnings. But I have been to Orlando many times and I always keep my distance from ponds and a good eye on them.

Yeah. But like you said. You've been their many times and know what to expect. Sad story. Sad sad story.

 

[angelatc]

The baby was killed in a man made lagoon.



http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-disney-alligator-history-20160615-story.html

I used to live in CLearwater, and there was a mobile home park on the corner of one of the intersections I'd routinely get caught at on my way to work. ON a regular basis, I'd see a little old lady toddling out to the end of their dock with a bucket. She'd get to the end, and this freaking huge alligator would rise up and open his mouth, and she'd pour the contents of the bucket right in his mouth.

This was in the middle of a urban area. Point being, if you pick any body of freshwater in FL, there's likely a gator in it.

 

[MelissaWV]

• Always give these reptiles a respectful distance -- at least 10 feet -- and always leave them alone.
• If you encounter an alligator outside its natural habitat, call the Nuisance Alligator Hotline: 1-866-FWC-GATOR (392-4286).
• Alligators are nocturnal animals, more active during the night. After dark, avoid fresh and brackish bodies of water, though alligators sometimes lurk in salt water. Unprovoked bites will often occur at the edge of the water.
• Never feed alligators; it encourages them to lose their natural fear of people.
• Small animals, like pets, and small children are generally more at risk than large adults.
• Female alligators protect their nests by hissing and opening their mouths; this does not mean they are preparing to attack.
• Alligators under 4 feet in length are not considered a threat to humans.
• The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission documented 383 unprovoked alligator bites between 1948 and 2016: 257 serious bites, with 23 resulting in death.
• The frequency of serious bites is increasing at a rate of about 3% each year: one additional bite every four or five years.

Decent information.

 

[angelatc]

Yeah. But like you said. You've been their many times and know what to expect. Sad story. Sad sad story.

I'm not sure I would not have allowed my toddler to splash around. Why are we assuming they had no idea of the danger?

 

[jmdrake]

What about mosquitoes? Does every resort in tropical areas need a dengue and zika warning sign to avert liability?

You've got a slightly better chance surviving a mosquito bite, even one with the zika virus, than surviving a gator attack.

 

[presence]

The baby was killed in a man made lagoon.

It doesn't matter if the kid was bit by an alligator in a man made swimming pool.

The alligator was not domesticated, farmed, hemmed in, trapped, in custody, or otherwise.

IT was wild.

Therefore not anyone's property.
Therefore not anyone's liability.

 

[jmdrake]

I'm not sure I would not have allowed my toddler to splash around. Why are we assuming they had no idea of the danger?

It seems to be a safe assumption to make. I mean they're from Nebraska. Not many gators there. And I would have assumed the no swimming sign meant they didn't want you at risk of drowning rather than "You could be drowned by gators." Seriously, is adding the word "gator" to a no swimming sign that hard?

 

[Suzanimal]

I used to live in CLearwater, and there was a mobile home park on the corner of one of the intersections I'd routinely get caught at on my way to work. ON a regular basis, I'd see a little old lady toddling out to the end of their dock with a bucket. She'd get to the end, and this freaking huge alligator would rise up and open his mouth, and she'd pour the contents of the bucket right in his mouth.

This was in the middle of a urban area. Point being, if you pick any body of freshwater in FL, there's likely a gator in it.

I get taht. I've lived in Ga my whole life and we find gators wandering around here occasionally. but not everyone is thinking about that on vacation at a fancy resort. I have a brother who's lived down there (Port St Lucie) for 20 years and I don't think about it when I'm visiting. I guess I'm especially stupid or maybe it's the Franiza.

I'm just sayin' havin' two years olds snatched by gators at Disney (with no warning about gators at the "beach") is bad business.

 

[MelissaWV]

You've got a slightly better chance surviving a mosquito bite, even one with the zika virus, than surviving a gator attack.

Illnesses carried by mosquitoes kill way more people, though, which is his point I think.

Over the past five years, 22 people were killed by lightning in Florida and 137 others were injured

(from 2009)

Some of these were walking along the beach, which I would hope most people would know not to do, but after a smattering of stories lately I'm beginning to think my faith is misplaced. Regardless, I am still surprised to see the "if a sign saves a life!" crowd out en force. I'm just not sure at what point you're supposed to assume that people have researched where they're going and what hazards might be encountered. It doesn't mean the person who doesn't know what to do is an idiot or "at fault," but when do you draw the line and say that the person whose property it happened on is not liable for natural hazards native to their environment?

 

[jmdrake]

It doesn't matter if the kid was bit by an alligator in a man made swimming pool.

The alligator was not domesticated, farmed, hemmed in, trapped, in custody, or otherwise.

IT was wild.

Therefore not anyone's property.
Therefore not anyone's liability.

Not so fast.

3. Doctrine of Animals Ferae Naturae

The doctrine of animals ferae naturae states that a property owner cannot be held liable for wild animal attacks on their property. In the case of Williams v. Gibbs, the Georgia Court of Appeals states that as long as a property owner does not own or keep a wild animal, "the law does not require the owner or possessor of land to anticipate the presence of, or guard an invitee against harm from animals ferae naturae."

However, this rule only applies when the presence of a wild animal on your property is not reasonably foreseeable. So, if a mountain lion, which has never been seen in the area before, comes down to your property and bites a party guest, you probably wouldn't be held liable. However, if you have a lot of snakes on your property, and you know that they are there, you do have a duty to take reasonable steps to protect guests against them. The doctrine of animals ferae naturae do not protect you in this circumstance.

So, if you are bitten by a wild animal, or a wild animal bites a guest while on your property, consult with an experienced personal injury attorney for guidance.

- See more at: http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/20...es-3-things-to-know.html#sthash.Vg3NsNMW.dpuf

If Disney was on notice about gators on their property, and it seems like they were, then they had a duty to at least warn people about them.

 

[jmdrake]

Illnesses carried by mosquitoes kill way more people, though, which is his point I think.

That's only because far more people get bit by mosquitoes than get bit by gators. If that's his point it's a weak sauce point.

Some of these were walking along the beach, which I would hope most people would know not to do, but after a smattering of stories lately I'm beginning to think my faith is misplaced. Regardless, I am still surprised to see the "if a sign saves a life!" crowd out en force. I'm just not sure at what point you're supposed to assume that people have researched where they're going and what hazards might be encountered. It doesn't mean the person who doesn't know what to do is an idiot or "at fault," but when do you draw the line and say that the person whose property it happened on is not liable for natural hazards native to their environment?

I think the line is pretty simple. If you know there are dangers on your property and you are inviting people to come "experience the magic" you should tell them what the dangers are. Why is that such a problem for folks? Disney checks everybody's bags when the come in for weapons but they can't say "Oh by the way...we got gators?" In fact Disney is doubly liable for disarming their guests. Someone should have shot that gator.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

The child was two. We don't let loose of our 2yo granchild in busy public places. Two year olds need fairly constant supervision. Trust me.

I think the concept of Disney lulls people into a false sense of safety and security. That doesn't mean that 2 year olds are not going to act like 2year olds.

I would like to see the phone records of the parents. I'm just going by what I have observed of parents when they are on vacation.

What part of getting dragged into the water by an alligator has anything to do with "acting like a 2 year old"?? By constant supervision, do you literally mean never letting go of the child's hand, ever? And are you saying that the parents are liable for not assuming that there were alligators in the water that could snatch their child? What other dangers are they supposed to be watching out for that make them bad parents for letting their 2 year old stray 5 feet away?

Why do you insist on blaming the parents? I don't think most people consider letting a 2 year old go 5 feet or however many feet it was a bad or irresponsible parenting practice. It certainly wasn't bad in comparison to hosting a party on an alligator-infested pond with no warnings or precautions about things that could come up out of the water and literally kill someone. The magnitude of this situation implores you to have some sympathy for the aggrieved parents and stop playing the "I'm the best parent in the world and this never would have happened had I been in that situation" game. I think it's disgusting.

 

[MelissaWV]

It seems to be a safe assumption to make. I mean they're from Nebraska. Not many gators there. And I would have assumed the no swimming sign meant they didn't want you at risk of drowning rather than "You could be drowned by gators." Seriously, is adding the word "gator" to a no swimming sign that hard?

No, and they're already going to add the signs. Hopefully they'll put some thought into the design because most of the ones with an image of an alligator on them kind of look like they're advertising it as a positive thing. They would do better to put up larger signs about wildlife in general if they're going to bother, though, and since non-locals seem to expect that alligators are easy to spot in murky water, I'm not sure how much good it will do in the long run.

 

[Suzanimal]

That's only because far more people get bit by mosquitoes than get bit by gators. If that's his point it's a weak sauce point.



I think the line is pretty simple. If you know there are dangers on your property and you are inviting people to come "experience the magic" you should tell them what the dangers are.

Agreed.

Why is that such a problem for folks?

I have no idea.

Disney checks everybody's bags when the come in for weapons but they can't say "Oh by the way...we got gators?" In fact Disney is doubly liable for disarming their guests. Someone should have shot that gator.

Not Disney's fault there, I think they're protected.

 

[MelissaWV]

That's only because far more people get bit by mosquitoes than get bit by gators. If that's his point it's a weak sauce point.



I think the line is pretty simple. If you know there are dangers on your property and you are inviting people to come "experience the magic" you should tell them what the dangers are. Why is that such a problem for folks? Disney checks everybody's bags when the come in for weapons but they can't say "Oh by the way...we got gators?" In fact Disney is doubly liable for disarming their guests. Someone should have shot that gator.

You would have needed the father to be the one with the weapon, draw it fast enough, and then find a lethal shot on a gator moving full-tilt through splashing water with a child in its jaws.

In my earlier example, people are invited to enjoy the beach. The number of hazard signs it would require to cover all of the potentially deadly things that could happen would not allow you to see the water, let alone get in it.

PaulConventionWV keeps calling it "alligator-infested" even though there were five caught in that entire area and the last bite happened in the early 80s. Doesn't exactly seem infested.

Again, I don't think signs are going to fix their problems. They should go with the eight-foot barrier that will keep gators away (and upon which people will climb, walk, burn themselves, cut themselves, and fall drunkenly from). It looks like those islands I mentioned in another post already exist, so the gators can sun themselves without needing to venture near the various beach areas. This will solve the issue until a snake bites someone, who will immediately say that they had no idea there could be snakes in Florida.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

attractive hazard doctrine only applies to artificial hazards; construction sites, equipment, faulty structures, etc.; alligators are natural hazards... so I don't see liability.

If you're attacked by a wild animal the property owner isn't responsible.
If you're attacked by a domesticated or caged animal the property owner is responsible.


ferae naturae; animals are wild natured

THEY FUCKING KNEW!

They should've said something! They knew there were alligators on the property. A pond or lagoon could even be considered a kind of cage but you heartless bastards seem to think shit just happens if somebody gets grabbed and I guess it's either the parents' fault for being ignorant or nobody's fault and we should just act like it's inevitable for this to happen. I think that's ridiculous. Even if the parents were a little ignorant for not being from Florida, the fact that the property owner knew about the possibility of this tragedy happening puts the liability on their shoulders. Did they take all the necessary means and precautions that could reasonably be expected of them to prevent this? I think not!

 

[MelissaWV]

I was wrong about the year on the previous gator bite:

• On August 22, 1980, an 11-year-old boy from New York died after swimming in the River Country water park next to the campground. The cause of death was amoebic meningoencephalitis, traces of which were found in the water.[124]
• In 1982 and 1989, two boys drowned at River Country.[124]
• On October 10, 1986, a 8-year-old boy was attacked by an alligator. At the time of the incident, his sister and a brother were playing when the boy wandered a short distance to watch some ducks. The gator came out of the water at that point and bit him on the left leg. His sister ran over and grabbed him by the armpits and pulled and his brother began beating the reptile with his hands. The gator released its hold and returned to the pond.[125]
• On May 23, 1987, a six-year-old boy drowned in a swimming pool. The family later sued, stating that resort should have had more than one lifeguard on duty to monitor the crowded pool, and that the pool should have had a safety line between the shallow and deep ends.[126]
• In March 2010, a 4-year-old boy from San Diego, California, suffered severe burns to his face and neck after being scalded by a cup of hot nacho cheese. The accident occurred when the boy sat down to dinner in an unstable chair and grabbed a food tray to prevent himself falling, resulting in the cheese falling off of the food tray and into his lap. The parents of the child sued Disney, with their attorney claiming that "the cheese should not have been that hot" and that Disney made no effort "to regulate and monitor the temperature of the nacho cheese which was being served to young children."
• In 1998, a 37-year-old man was hit on the head by a falling object. His left arm was paralyzed, and he suffered from short-term memory loss (losing his job in the process). Two objects were discovered at the bottom on the floor of Space Mountain, a camera and a candle from Frontierland.[77]
• On August 6, 2009, a 47-year-old employee playing the role of a pirate in the "Captain Jack's Pirate Tutorial" show slipped on a puddle on the stage and hit his head on a wall. He was taken to Florida Hospital Orlando with injuries including a broken vertebra in his neck and severe lacerations on his head that required 55 stitches. He died August 10 due to complications.[70]

 

[MelissaWV]

Ah and there comes the news that makes sense: people had been feeding gators and that was reported to Disney. Now THAT makes them liable, and changes it from a natural hazard to a man-made one. No number of signs will correct the fact that these were not normal, wild alligators who would generally race away from people.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

If a friend goes over to a friend's house and the property has a pond on it and there are alligators in said pond, I would definitely expect the property owner to let his friends know that there alligators in that pond first thing they come on the property. If the friends go down to their host's pond without his supervision and never once mentions the freaking alligators, are we supposed to say "Oh, what a pity! You should watch out for wild animals!"

NO FREAKING WAY! The property owner not mentioning the dangers to his friends is a clear negligence of his duties as a friend and a property owner. I would absolutely say any kind of friend would certainly not fail to mention this crucial fact before letting others onto his property. And that brings up another point: they weren't necessarily in public. Although there were other people on the property, there was a reasonable expectation of safety from the dangers of truly public life. I don't think this situation calls for extra-tight precautions on the part of the parents. The child was under their direct supervision, but they were totally unaware as to which direction they could expect an attack from. I certainly wouldn't blame any parents for letting their child stray a few feet from them in this situation.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Gators used to get in the pools in our neighborhood all the time. Should every homeowner have been required to post a caution sign to avoid liability?

If I was having a friend over from out-of-state that didn't understand the dangers, then I would certainly deign to explain it to them and help check for alligators before allowing them to use my swimming pool.