A critical study of the Bible

[YumYum]

The part I have bolded in your post might be the key to understanding that quote from scripture. What did Jesus say just before He bowed his head, and gave up the ghost?

Here is a quote from the King James Version of the Bible.


When He said "It is finished.", what do you suppose He meant by that?

He finished His Father's work.

John 17:4 (New International Version)

4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

The part I have bolded in your post might be the key to understanding that quote from scripture. What did Jesus say just before He bowed his head, and gave up the ghost?

Here is a quote from the King James Version of the Bible.


When He said "It is finished.", what do you suppose He meant by that?

From earlier in the sentence: "...until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

jmdrake:

That it's a sham, like every other religion. I'm not being antagonistic in this thread, though. Just garnering perspective (potentially, at least - I was previously a hardcore evangelical) other than mine.

 

[AFPVet]

What do you think of the "Gospel of Thomas"?

I thought that it was an interesting gnostic text, but it seems a bit too off the wall lol.

You are leaving out the possibility of divine influence in selecting the cannon.

I watched the History Channel's presentation on the missing books of the bible and saw that the curators supposedly brought all of the books selected together and they were the same which would indicate divine intervention; however, it would be very easy for this to be manipulated—or told—in order to favor the Catholic church. All we have is faith... the words in red.

 

[Dr.3D]

From earlier in the sentence: "...until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

jmdrake:

That it's a sham, like every other religion. I'm not being antagonistic in this thread, though. Just garnering perspective (potentially, at least - I was previously a hardcore evangelical) other than mine.

Have you read my previous post?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...of-the-Bible&p=3047160&viewfull=1#post3047160

Please look at the part in reference to Luke 16:16-17 and Hebrews 8:10, it is pointing back at Jeremiah 31:31-33.

 

[jmdrake]

From earlier in the sentence: "...until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

jmdrake:

That it's a sham, like every other religion. I'm not being antagonistic in this thread, though. Just garnering perspective (potentially, at least - I was previously a hardcore evangelical) other than mine.

If that's the way you wish to interpret it fine. But spiritual things are spiritually discerned. It's pretty obvious to anyone looking at this from a spiritual perspective that ceremonies that pointed to prophecies that have already been fulfilled don't need to be performed after those prophecies have been fulfilled. But if you're just looking for an excuse to call something a sham God will not get in your way and neither will I.

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

Not looking for an excuse to call something a sham. I said plainly in my last post what I'm doing - garnering perspective that may differ from mine.

 

[wizardwatson]

My main problem with Christianity is this:

Why is everyone so hard-core in believing that Christ was the only singular being in which God had manifested himself?

There are other humans, if we are to believe in the spiritual truths of other religions, in which we could say God had "fully manifested" himself. Buddha, Sai Baba of Shirdi, Dada Bhagwan, etc. I believe the unique divinity of Jesus' God/man condition is questionable though I do find the story and the idea of the sacrifice compelling. But I'm sympathetic to the Jewish faith in that Jesus didn't seem to fulfill the law fully unless you count the new testament which is kind of cheating.

 

[Dr.3D]

Jesus is the only son of God.

My main problem with Christianity is this:

Why is everyone so hard-core in believing that Christ was the only singular being in which God had manifested himself?

There are other humans, if we are to believe in the spiritual truths of other religions, in which we could say God had "fully manifested" himself. Buddha, Sai Baba of Shirdi, Dada Bhagwan, etc. I believe the unique divinity of Jesus' God/man condition is questionable though I do find the story and the idea of the sacrifice compelling. But I'm sympathetic to the Jewish faith in that Jesus didn't seem to fulfill the law fully unless you count the new testament which is kind of cheating.

Jesus is the Son of God. That is much different than God being manifested in a human.
Let's go back to what God told Abraham to do.

Genesis 22:1-2 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Now you see, God told Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac to God. This was a test to see if Abraham would do such a thing for God.
Of course Abraham did as God had told him and just as he was about to sacrifice his only son, God told him he didn't have to do it.

Genesis 22:11-12 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

After Abraham had proven mankind would sacrifice his only son to God, God did sacrifice His only Son to save mankind from judgment.

 

[wizardwatson]

Jesus is the Son of God. That is much different than God being manifested in a human.
Let's go back to what God told Abraham to do.


Now you see, God told Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac to God. This was a test to see if Abraham would do such a thing for God.
Of course Abraham did as God had told him and just as he was about to sacrifice his only son, God told him he didn't have to do it.



After Abraham had proven mankind would sacrifice his only son to God, God did sacrifice His only Son to save mankind from judgment.

Well, I'm a bible novice for sure but I understand all that. But this is New Testament interpretation and even though Jesus said "I'm the truth,way,life and no one gets to the father except by me" he doesn't really say anything about the sacrifice. And I still say that his mentioning of "The father" is duplicated by other "spirituals" who talk about the "guru within".

Does it say in the old testament that God will sacrifice his only son?

 

[Dr.3D]

Jesus is the Lamb of God.

Well, I'm a bible novice for sure but I understand all that. But this is New Testament interpretation and even though Jesus said "I'm the truth,way,life and no one gets to the father except by me" he doesn't really say anything about the sacrifice. And I still say that his mentioning of "The father" is duplicated by other "spirituals" who talk about the "guru within".

Does it say in the old testament that God will sacrifice his only son?

The first Passover lamb was a reflection toward Jesus being the final Passover lamb.

Exodus 12:3-11 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: 4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. 11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.

Notice how the first lamb was selected on the tenth day of the month. Jesus was also selected on the tenth day of the month when He rode into Jerusalem on the colt of an ass.

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Matthew 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

The first lamb was perfect as is Jesus. The first lamb was a male just as Jesus is a male. The blood of the first lamb saved the first born from death as the blood of Jesus saves all mankind from death. The first lamb was sacrificed on the 14th day of the month just as Jesus was sacrificed on the 14th day of the month. Jesus is the Lamb of God. He was nailed to the cross at 09:00AM the exact time as the daily morning sacrifice. He gave up the ghost at 03:00PM the exact time as the daily evening sacrifice and He was sacrificed at exactly the same time as the rest of the Passover lambs. Jesus fulfilled the final morning, evening and Passover sacrifice that day.

Every year after the first Passover sacrifice, the remembrance of that sacrifice was reenacted on the 14th day of the first Biblical month. This is so no one would forget that first sacrifice and thus remember it for the final sacrifice.

 

[jmdrake]

Not looking for an excuse to call something a sham. I said plainly in my last post what I'm doing - garnering perspective that may differ from mine.

Fine. Well my perspective is that any parts of the Mosaic law that were really prophecies that have been fulfilled no longer apply. I believe God gave laws for a reason. There is no reason today to kill a lamb to point to the messiah coming as the Lamb of God. Seems pretty simple to me. Maybe it isn't to others.

 

[jmdrake]

Well, I'm a bible novice for sure but I understand all that. But this is New Testament interpretation and even though Jesus said "I'm the truth,way,life and no one gets to the father except by me" he doesn't really say anything about the sacrifice. And I still say that his mentioning of "The father" is duplicated by other "spirituals" who talk about the "guru within".

Does it say in the old testament that God will sacrifice his only son?

Showing the messiah would be God's son.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[c] a sign: The virgin[d] will conceive and give birth to a son, and[e] will call him Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[a] (which means “God with us”).

Showing the messiah would be sacrificed.

Isaiah 53:4-9
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

 

[specialK]

I would like to recommend a book for anyone interested in the origins of the OT. Fantastic book written by a Hebrew scholar. You may never view the Bible in the same way again:

http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/0060630353

 

[idirtify]

Originally Posted by idirtify
Would you like a link?

I would.

The Sacred Mushroom and The Cross: A study of the nature and origins of Christianity within the fertility cults of the ancient Near East
by: John M. Allegro

Online here, but only 250 pages – less 99 pages of notes
http://www.iot.org.br/caostopia/wp-...-the-sacred-mushroom-and-the-cross-ingles.pdf

Reprinted and available here, I assume in full - with notes
http://www.gnosticmedia.com/store/

pharmacratic inquisition video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=825942553983229569#

looks like an attempt at a thorough overview
http://www.squidoo.com/amanita-muscaria

The Holy Mushroom: Evidence of Mushrooms in Judeo-Christianity: A critical re-evaluation of the schism between John M. Allegro and R. Gordon Wasson over ... in The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross
by: J. R. Irvin

Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy
by: Clark Heinrich

John Marco Allegro: The Maverick of the Dead Sea Scrolls
By: Judith Anne Brown

Allegro books
http://johnallegro.org/books/sacred-mushroom-and-the-cross-1970/

 

[idirtify]

I just started reading the bible a couple weeks ago. I had never read it before because I never made the time. At first I was trying to read the King James version but it was taking me forever because I had no idea what half of it meant. My friend suggested I switch to the NIV bible. It's been a lot easier for me to read.

I tried reading the DOI and constitution and BOR but they were too hard. So I went out and got a revised condensed version. It looks much easier and I’m gonna read it instead, and I’m sure it’s just as good. Who’s the author, you ask? Why would that be important? O well, whatever, let’s see…it says here… “GW Bush”. LOL

 

[YumYum]

idirtify--thanks. Good information here. Every Christian on this forum should review what you have provided. They recently discovered murals on the walls in the catacombs under Rome, of first century Christians, eating Amanita Muscaria while in prayer. This is proof that early Christians ate psychedelic mushrooms. This helped me to understand the book of "Revelation" much better. It still doesn't explain the apostle Paul, though.

 

[idirtify]

1. idirtify--thanks. Good information here.

2. Every Christian on this forum should review what you have provided.

3. They recently discovered murals on the walls in the catacombs under Rome, of first century Christians, eating Amanita Muscaria while in prayer. This is proof that early Christians ate psychedelic mushrooms. This helped me to understand the book of "Revelation" much better.

4. It still doesn't explain the apostle Paul, though.

1. You’re welcome.

2. I agree. A true believer would not want to mistake this theory as atheism/heresy, when it could actually be the real Christianity. I mean technically the entheogen theory of religion doesn’t dispute the existence of Christ; it just redefines him. And doesn’t any serious Christian want to know the REAL story of Christ?

3. Sounds interesting. I’m not sure I’m up on that. Got a link?

4. If I’m not mistaken, I think Allegro has some stuff to say about the name Paul.

 

[YumYum]

Before I continue with some observations of the scriptures that I would like to discuss, I wanted to ask those of you who believe that the Bible in its entirety was written by G-d, in other words "G-d breathed, word for word", how do you handle a passage that you read that appears to contradict other scriptures? Do you automatically reason with yourself why their is an apparent discrepancy, or do you do research to find out the answers? Do you only turn to Christian authorities on the matter, or do you also investigate worldly opinions? Witnesses are not allowed to read non-witness material. They must turn to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to get answers to any questions. That is the reason I am asking this question.

 

[TER]

Before I continue with some observations of the scriptures that I would like to discuss, I wanted to ask those of you who believe that the Bible in its entirety was written by G-d, in other words "G-d breathed, word for word", how do you handle a passage that you read that appears to contradict other scriptures? Do you automatically reason with yourself why their is an apparent discrepancy, or do you do research to find out the answers? Do you only turn to Christian authorities on the matter, or do you also investigate worldly opinions? Witnesses are not allowed to read non-witness material. They must turn to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to get answers to any questions. That is the reason I am asking this question.

The Scriptures are understood from within the mind of the Church. The Scriptures are a product of the Church, written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. In such a manner, it is through the lens of the Church that the Scriptures can be correctly understood and thus be interpreted. The idea of 'personal interpretation' of the Scriptures is a recent phenomenon.

 

[YumYum]

The Scriptures are understood from within the mind of the Church. The Scriptures are a product of the Church, written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. In such a manner, it is through the lens of the Church that the Scriptures can be correctly understood and thus be interpreted. The idea of 'personal interpretation' of the Scriptures is a recent phenomenon.

Yes, but the Bible wasn't written as a collective. Each book was independently written. Christians starting putting the books into codexs, and of course, the early Christian fathers debated what books were considered authentic and what books were not to be trusted. Clement didn't trust the scriptures over oral tradition. What "church" are you referring to? Who is the "mind" of the Church?