Yes, but that was not part of my original point. Even if you must associate atheism with certain tyrannical states that have used force to demand it, you don’t refute the fact that it’s the nature of religion/theocracy to demand belief in officially-approved dogma.
A critical study of the Bible
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Yes, but that was not part of my original point. Even if you must associate atheism with certain tyrannical states that have used force to demand it, you don’t refute the fact that it’s the nature of religion/theocracy to demand belief in officially-approved dogma.
I was referring to more than just words added or omitted. For instance, Luke 23: 34 is spurious. It says: "34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
In fact, the long conclusion of Mark is spurious. This stuff is so obvious. Why do Christians avoid it and deny it? The Bible is a book, it is not G-d. It has flaws. What is the big deal if it has flaws? Where does it say in the Bible that there will be no flaws? Jesus did not look to the scriptures as the way to everlasting life. So, why do Christians?
jmdrake
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Ok. Well thank you for providing a specific example I can zoom into. From your link:
Some early manuscripts (Matthew 16:2-3, Luke 22:43-44, 23:34)
The phrase, "Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing,'" (Luke 23:34) perhaps added to demonstrate Jesus' benevolence, carries a footnote in the NIV that indicates it is omitted from "some early manuscripts." It has also been argued that "they" did know what they were doing and in fact were not forgiven. Others claim that since important manuscripts included it, it is probable that it was included in the original text, but removed from an earlier copy for some reason, perhaps antisemitism[1] or a damaged manuscript or a mistranslation found offensive. Another translation of the quote might be “The Father forgives them (the executioners); for they experience not what they do.” Also per footnotes in the NIV, some early manuscripts did not have Luke 22:43-44 or Matthew 16:2-3.
So how do we know for sure that it was actually omitted in the original? From that source some early manuscripts had it in there, some didn't. There was also the possibility raised of a damaged manuscript being the reason why the phrase was initially left out. So I can't say for certain that someone just "stuck this in". What would be the motive for inserting this if it wasn't already there? I can see the motive for why someone might want to take it out. (Not wanting to accept that Jesus unilaterally forgave those who crucified Him.) I suppose some 1st century version of "political correctness" could have caused the insertion. But Jesus talked about unconditional forgiveness other places.
As for whether Jesus "looked to the scriptures for eternal life", let's look at what He said on that:
John 5:39 (New International Version, ©2010)
39 You study[a] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
Christians use (or should use) the scriptures the same way Jesus said to use them, as a road map to find Jesus. If I'm driving from Atlanta to New York, having a road map in my hand and reading it diligently will not get me to New York. I have to actually get in the car and follow the directions the map gave me. If the map is flawed and I follow its directions will I get to New York? If the map is not flawed, but I decide to veer from it will I still get to New York? The answer to both of those questions is "It depends". It depends on the nature of the flaw. Maybe I reject some part of the Bible as "flawed" that doesn't really matter because it's not a point of salvation. Then again maybe I reject some part of the Bible as "flawed" that is essential. How can I be sure? Remember Prov 14:12
Proverbs 14:12 (New International Version, ©2010)
12 There is a way that appears to be right,
but in the end it leads to death.
If I'm on a trip and I don't know the way and I have a map I'm going to assume the map is accurate. The same goes with the Bible. There are some things that I feel I just have to get God to qualify once I get to heaven. But they aren't questions that deal with my personal salvation. (For example did God really tell Joshua to kill every man, woman and child in Jericho?) The danger I see is when people say "Well the Bible is flawed, so God really doesn't expect you to follow XYZ standard of Christian living." I would never make that presumption.
Remember, when Jesus was fighting Satan in the wilderness, the only weapon He used was quoting scripture. (See: http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/4_1-13.htm) Remember also that at one point Satan misquoted scripture back to Jesus in an attempt to confuse Him. Satan left out the phrase "to keep you in all your ways". Some scholars suggest that was left out because Satan wanted to tempt Jesus into the sin of presumption (throw yourself off the temple to see if God catches you) when the verse in Psalms was talking about God's protection while being in the will or "way" of God. Note that Jesus didn't argue with Satan about whether that particular phrase should have been left out or not. He just went straight to another verse "It is written thou shalt not tempt the Lord your God." There's nothing wrong with investigating various issues about the Bible as long as at the end of the day you don't discard the map.
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jmdrake, Good input. I agree, the Bible for me, especially the Gospels are a "vehicle", or an "instrument" that lead me to Jesus. The Gospels inspire me. When I don't understand something, or I think something doesn't make sense, I don't immediately rationalize it for the sake of supporting any preconceived notions I may have. It is important to study scripture, but salvation and peace of mind comes by going to Jesus in prayer. In any case, I hope that believers and skeptics alike can see that from your excellent point that the Bible is a map, it just depends how someone reads it. I think what I am trying to stress to everybody is that prayer is the way to Jesus. The Bible can provide the "jump start" for an individual to make the move.
But, I do have questions about certain scriptures that I will present to get different views on. It doesn't mean they are "mistakes", but they need to be addressed so that we are prepared to answer the skeptics.
But, I do have questions about certain scriptures that I will present to get different views on. It doesn't mean they are "mistakes", but they need to be addressed so that we are prepared to answer the skeptics.
Like?.....
Here is my testimony from another thread:
"I had a life threatening terminal health problem, in which the pain would have stopped my heart had it continued. I prayed to Jesus to either end my life, so I wouldn't suffer, or please remove the pain. The pain stopped immediately, and my terminal condition was gone. I had laid in bed 6 hours suffering the most horrible pain I have ever experienced in my life. The second I finished my prayer the pain stopped, never to return. I went to the doctor and my blood work came back perfect. I was almost an atheist, but I did what Jesus commanded; I went to Him and He healed me. I have been praying to Him about other matters and He is answering my prayers. I have a new hold on my life, thanks to Jesus. I never realized that turning to Jesus and learning from Him could be so easy. I was a hard head, though."
I'm doing research on the resurrection of Jesus for an article I am writing for the new web site my cousin is building. I have been reading chapter 15 of 1st Corinthians and I wanted to point out a few things from verses 24-28. 1st Corinthians 15: 24-28 reads:
"24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
G-d's Kingdom is a government. I'm sure you would all agree with that. Why, if Jesus is G-d, does He have to turn over the Kingdom to his Father? Wouldn't they rule together?
Also, it says: "after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."; this means that Jesus will destroy all the Earth's governments, as is mentioned in Daniel 2:44. How do Christians, who believe that America is "one nation under G-d", feel about this? Do Christians realize that the government of America stands in opposition to G-d's Kingdom and will be destroyed by Jesus? If not, what does Paul mean in light of Daniel 2:44?
Continuing, we read: "25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
Is this supposed to be during Jesus' one thousand year reign? I am assuming that at the end of His one thousand year reign He hands the Kingdom over to His Father. If the reign includes the entire earth, who will He be reigning over if all the believers are in Heaven? It mentions in Revelation that at the end of the thousand year reign Satan is let out of the abyss for a little while to test people. What happens to those who fail Satan's test? They are thrown into the "Lake of Fire"? After this final test, is this when death is finally done away with?
I appreciate any input on this, even if it is your opinion. I am very intrigued by Paul's discussion on this issue. I wish he would have expounded on this a little more.
"24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
G-d's Kingdom is a government. I'm sure you would all agree with that. Why, if Jesus is G-d, does He have to turn over the Kingdom to his Father? Wouldn't they rule together?
Also, it says: "after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."; this means that Jesus will destroy all the Earth's governments, as is mentioned in Daniel 2:44. How do Christians, who believe that America is "one nation under G-d", feel about this? Do Christians realize that the government of America stands in opposition to G-d's Kingdom and will be destroyed by Jesus? If not, what does Paul mean in light of Daniel 2:44?
Continuing, we read: "25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
Is this supposed to be during Jesus' one thousand year reign? I am assuming that at the end of His one thousand year reign He hands the Kingdom over to His Father. If the reign includes the entire earth, who will He be reigning over if all the believers are in Heaven? It mentions in Revelation that at the end of the thousand year reign Satan is let out of the abyss for a little while to test people. What happens to those who fail Satan's test? They are thrown into the "Lake of Fire"? After this final test, is this when death is finally done away with?
I appreciate any input on this, even if it is your opinion. I am very intrigued by Paul's discussion on this issue. I wish he would have expounded on this a little more.
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Paul tells his followers that to gain salvation, all one has to do is have faith in Jesus Christ. If you have faith, you are saved. You don't need to do any works or obey any commandments, according to Paul. He makes this clear at Galatians 2:16, which states:
"know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified."
Paul also makes it clear at Romans 3: 28, where he says:
"For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."
But Jesus said differently. Notice what he says it takes to gain everlasting life. At Matthew 19:17, Jesus told the man:
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
And again, look at what Jesus asserts at Luke 10:26-28:
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
James makes it very clear in verse 24 of the 2nd chapter that a believer must have "works"; that "faith" isn't enough:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
So, to gain eternal life, do we just have to only accept Jesus as our personal savior and put faith in him, as Paul says? Or, do we need to do as Jesus commanded, and that is to obey laws and commandments, and according to Jesus half-brother, James, do "works"?
"know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified."
Paul also makes it clear at Romans 3: 28, where he says:
"For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."
But Jesus said differently. Notice what he says it takes to gain everlasting life. At Matthew 19:17, Jesus told the man:
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
And again, look at what Jesus asserts at Luke 10:26-28:
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
James makes it very clear in verse 24 of the 2nd chapter that a believer must have "works"; that "faith" isn't enough:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
So, to gain eternal life, do we just have to only accept Jesus as our personal savior and put faith in him, as Paul says? Or, do we need to do as Jesus commanded, and that is to obey laws and commandments, and according to Jesus half-brother, James, do "works"?
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jmdrake
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Remember that Jesus said "Let he who would be great among you be your servant"? Jesus is just the opposite of many churches that claim to be following Him. Rather than seeking hierarchical positions, Jesus advocated "servant leadership".
Here are a few verses to consider.
Philippians 2:5-10 (New International Version, ©2010)
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Jesus is shown as being inherently equal with the Father, but humbling Himself to a position of a servant.
Or consider this:
Matthew 20:20-28 (New International Version, ©2010)
A Mother’s Request
20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.
21 “What is it you want?” he asked.
She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.”
22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?”
“We can,” they answered.
23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
James and John ask (through their mother) for positions of power in the kingdom. Jesus asks them if they are ready to "drink His cup"? They say yes. He tells them that they will, but it is not his to set up positions. That decision belongs to the Father. Other disciples get jealous, Jesus points out that the greatest is the servant.
America is turning more and more against God all of the time. And ultimately America is destined, like all other nations, to "wonder after the beast" if she isn't doing so already. (PM me if your curious about my views on America in Bible prophecy).
Oh man, you're getting deep! Ok, here's Revelation 20:4-10
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Notice the sequence of events. The "rest of the dead" who did not come back to life until the end of the thousand years are those that are lost. The saved live with Christ 1000 years. That's why Satan is "bound". Everyone that he might have power over are dead. Then in the "second resurrection" those people are brought to life, Satan is able to deceive them once more, they try to attack the city God set up, and the results are predictable. Now that's a literal interpretation of Revelation 20:4-10. Some people interpret Revelation 20 symbolically.
jmdrake
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There is no contradiction. You are lost because of transgression of the law. But you are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
Romans 6:23 (New International Version, ©2010)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 John 3:4 (New International Version, ©2010)
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
The key is having a relationship with Jesus. Remember the parable of the sheep and the goats? Jesus said to the goats "I never knew you". The goats talked about all of the "good works" they did. Jesus mentioned all of the things they should have done, but didn't. Then He told the sheep to come in. He mentioned all of the things the sheep did. Was the difference the list of deed? I don't think so. The goats were motivated to try to do things through their own strength. The sheep allowed Jesus to work through them to the point where they did good works but didn't even realize it.
(See Mathew 25:31-46)
How do we do good works? By abiding in Christ. He said if we abide in Him and He abides in us, we will automatically do good fruits.
(See John 15:4-6)
Romans 6:23 (New International Version, ©2010)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 John 3:4 (New International Version, ©2010)
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
The key is having a relationship with Jesus. Remember the parable of the sheep and the goats? Jesus said to the goats "I never knew you". The goats talked about all of the "good works" they did. Jesus mentioned all of the things they should have done, but didn't. Then He told the sheep to come in. He mentioned all of the things the sheep did. Was the difference the list of deed? I don't think so. The goats were motivated to try to do things through their own strength. The sheep allowed Jesus to work through them to the point where they did good works but didn't even realize it.
(See Mathew 25:31-46)
How do we do good works? By abiding in Christ. He said if we abide in Him and He abides in us, we will automatically do good fruits.
(See John 15:4-6)
Icymudpuppy
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Matthew 15:22-28
Is Jesus racist?
Is Christian salvation only for the Israeli people?
Can gentiles only receive worldly healing, but not salvation?
Is Jesus racist?
Is Christian salvation only for the Israeli people?
Can gentiles only receive worldly healing, but not salvation?
In reading the passage, it seems that Jesus was implying that the people of Israel were in the most need of guidance (lost sheep). So to answer the first question, the text seems to imply a segregation between the people; however, I would have to study the history of that time period more in depth to understand what he is talking about.
The answer the second and third questions, Jesus does not imply that only the Israeli people may have healing and salvation... only those who have faith.
heavenlyboy34
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I agree with that, but if I may ask-Paul says that faith alone is not enough. He says that good works and...(blast, I forget the last part of the Pauline triangle) as well as faith are necessary. Is Paul wrong, is Jesus' statement you mentioned incomplete, or something else?
TER
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Here is a nice, concise explanation I found:
The Healing of the Daughter of the Canaanite Woman
One day Jesus Christ went to the region of Tyre and Sidon. There came to Him a Canaanite woman of pagan faith, and she began to cry out loudly, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely possessed by a demon."
Wishing to show His disciples the strength of the faith of this woman, Jesus Christ did not answer a word to her.
Then, the disciples began to beg Him saying, "Send her away, for she is crying after us."
But Jesus answered, "I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
But she came and knelt before Him saying, "Lord! Help me."
Jesus Christ said to her, "Let the children first be fed, for it is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs." He said this because the Jews considered themselves the children of Abraham, children of God, and sons of the Kingdom of Heaven, and they looked upon the Gentiles as dogs. Therefore, the Saviour was intentionally addressing the Jews in this instance and equating a dog to this woman, wishing to show the Jews all the incorrectness and injustice of their attitude toward the pagans. Among the pagans, He found strong faith such as did not exist among the Jews. He called them "the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Moreover, by these words, the Saviour showed the woman that He must live and do His work first of all among the Jews as they believed in the true God. Most importantly, the Saviour saw the believing heart of this woman and rejoiced that in her there was an example to show all people what faith must be.
The woman humbly answered to this, "Yes, Lord; yet even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs." With these words the Canaanite woman demonstrated not only her great humility and consciousness that a pagan person could not be as close to God as those in the true faith, but conveyed by this her great faith that the merciful God extends mercy to all people.
Then, Jesus Christ said to her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly. Returning home, the woman found her daughter restored to health and peacefully lying in bed.
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