You don't win by quitting... (Ron is still a Republican)

[ninepointfive]

//

 

[donnay]

I completely agree, but it's the world in which we curerently live and judging by history, it isn't changing any time soon.

I completely agree with that too. And I would never do that myself or ask anyone else to either.

I think you completely missed my point--I am not willing to go along to get along anymore. People have got to quit compromising their principles because the system tells you that is the only way to do it.

 

[Acala]

I'm going to have to agree with Matt here.

The battle for liberty was never going to be won in a single fight with a miraculous win. I'm sure Dr. Paul never thought so. I believe that his political career has always been primarily educational, not a Quixotic attempt to force the liberty agenda through legislation. And by that measure his success in the last eight years, aided by legions of supporters, has been absolutely phenomenal.

By the time a true liberty candidate wins the Presidency, the war will already have been won in the minds of the people and in the local electorate. But now, thanks to Dr. Paul's efforts, we have the organizations, the numbers, the skills, and the drive to make it happen where it NEEDS to happen - locally. Then regionally. Then nationally.

It is important to keep in mind that this movement is not some fad or fluke. It is the re-kindling of the greatest idea in the history of human society. It isn't some red team versus green team rah rah fan club that will now vanish. It is an idea whose time has come. And if the RNC thinks it has stamped out the brushfire, it is sorely mistaken.

Not everyone will want to continue to work within the Republican party. I would actually like to see someone try and ignite a simlar insurgency in the Democratic party. And there will be people who eschew politics altogether and instead work on education and scholarship. Or on building intentional communities with a liberty-based structure. There will be ways of advancing liberty that we can't even imagine now, just as the crucial role of the internet in this movement was not imaginable twenty years ago. Everyone needs to find the path that suits them.

Of course the Party machines will never let us simply waltz in and take over. Either one of them would prefer to lose the election to the rival party rather than have us come in and dismantle the largesse machine. But as powerful as they are now, their power comes from the corrupt machine they have built. That corrupt machine has a limited lifespan. And when it comes down, it will be time for a change. So it is up to us now to continue to build the foundation for raising a new Constitutional Republic, based on liberty, from the ashes of the coming collapse.

So keep studying liberty, keep teaching, keep organizing, keep working within the party if you can stomach it, support real statesmen and teachers and leaders. Talk to your friends. Get better at making the case for freedom. And remember, this is a young movement and time is on your side.

Besides - what the hell else are you going to do?

 

[Matt Collins]

I have absolutely no use for anything Collins says, but he is absolutely right about this. And - it is SO much easier to grab power when the Republicans are in office AND there's no upcoming Presidential elections. Just start going to the meetings, listen and learn.

In 2 years, you'll likely be the only person attending.

You agree with me?! It must be the end of the world!

 

[Matt Collins]

The only thing I'm giving up on is the RNC. Not the movement. If the movement continues within the Republican party, I will support that effort. But only that effort. Not the party.

I agree. The party is what we make it. And it's our job to make it a liberty apparatus.

 

[hrdman2luv]

I agree. The party is what we make it. And it's our job to make it a liberty apparatus.

Here's what I see. With the RNC, we not only have the liberty movements reputation battle to fight. Which will be done in the media. But we also have the establishment battle to fight.

With the Libertarian party, the only battle we have is the media battle. And considering the battle with the RNC has just started over (with the new RNC rules), I see no point in continuing to fight them. And please understand, I don't see this as a loss for the Liberty movement. That battle has already been lost. It was the Alamo, sort of speak.

Now is the time to pick up our dead and wounded and regroup. Now is the time to meet with "Sam Houston" (the Libertarian Party) and plan out our strategy for San Jacinto.

The Libertarian Party will accept us. They will help us. Because they've been trying to do the same thing we've been trying to do with the RNC. Which is bring Freedom, Liberty, limited government, free markets, sound money, equal rights and the constitution back to the forefront of government. We don't have to fight them. We don't have to use up precious resources with them. Those resources can be used to promote the Libertarians reputation of those things I listed above. And not trying to change rules, fight big government RINO's, coporatist special interest, the military industrial complexwall st. and all the other deep pocketed fascist.

 

[jmdrake]

You agree with me?! It must be the end of the world!

It's not the end of the world. It's just Michigan.

 

[KEEF]

I've been thinking about it, and seeing what our movement has done from way back in 07 to where it is now, I am willing to stay with the infiltrate the GOP up to 2016 (pending a hopefully embarasing R Money loss in the 2012 general). I am going to do this for Rand's sake. After that, and if we are still the United States of America, why not just call ourselves Independents and push for an Independent candidate?

There are Independent officials that have made it to big offices, and as much as I love Libertarianism, that label scares the feces out of the general uninformed public.

Those are my thoughts.

 

[hrdman2luv]

I've been thinking about it, and seeing what our movement has done from way back in 07 to where it is now, I am willing to stay with the infiltrate the GOP up to 2016 (pending a hopefully embarasing R Money loss in the 2012 general). I am going to do this for Rand's sake. After that, and if we are still the United States of America, why not just call ourselves Independents and push for an Independent candidate?

There are Independent officials that have made it to big offices, and as much as I love Libertarianism, that label scares the feces out of the general uninformed public.

Those are my thoughts.

We already have the Libertarian party that's on our side. We don't have to fight them. We have been invited to join them and help them do the same things we've been trying to do since 2007. They are established and will be on the ballot in all 50 states. All they need are more supporters. And all we need are more supporters. We could double the size and population of the Libertarian party in less than a month.

It's all about the movement. Nothing else. Not the Libertarian Party, not the republican party. Or any party for that matter. All we have to do is join with people that already support our cause. They've been fighting for this cause for a lot longer than we have. And they, like us, have made substantial gains. They've won many battles, that we don't have to fight now.

It's a win win.

Why fight 2 battles, for one cause, when you don't have to. The GOP isn't too big to fail. This country is.

 

[Matt Collins]

It's not the end of the world. It's just Michigan.

Is there a difference?

 

[Matt Collins]

And not trying to change rules, fight big government RINO's, coporatist special interest, the military industrial complexwall st. and all the other deep pocketed fascist.

Except that the LP is incapable of winning almost any election. Half of it is not their fault though, it's because of ballto access laws. Other than maybe casting your vote in their direction, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to work within the LP.

 

[Occam's Banana]

Ron's not going to do anything like that this time solely because he doesn't want to hurt Rand.

I agree that Ron won't endorse outside the GOP this time, but I don't think it's because of Rand. Rand is a big boy and he's established himself sufficiently that he really doesn't need his father's protection in this regard.

I think the people Ron is protecting are the Revolutionaries who are now part of the GOP infrastructure - the folks in Maine, Minnesota, Iowa, Nevada, etc who already hold official positions in state parties, and those who will, in the future, seek such positions.

This time around, if Ron endorses anyone who is not a Republican, this will put our Revolutionaries in a very awkward position and make continued gains in the GOP infrastructure much more difficult. Such considerations weren't a factor last time.

 

[Carlybee]

The thing some are missing is that you have no element of surprise within the GOP anymore. Sure you may win majorities in some areas but in the big states like Texas for example the GOP establishment is so ingrained and established here, it would take a century and it would take a bunch of people being willing to think for a change. We have a comparitive small liberty contingent here. Yes there are Tea Partiers who we share some points with but for the most part on some really important issues, they side with the neocons. I don't have the answer, but I damned sure will be thinking about where my time and money is spent this time around, because once they know you are coming they will be more prepared...we saw what happened all through the delegate process and at the convention. People need to stop acting like none of that happened and it's business as usual. It's not. Things have changed...for the worst.

 

[Eisenhower]

>You don't win by quitting

That's why Ron left the RNC, and was frisked by the TSA on the way out of Florida.

 

[Matt Collins]

Sure you may win majorities in some areas but in the big states like Texas for example the GOP establishment is so ingrained and established here, it would take a century and it would take a bunch of people being willing to think for a change. We have a comparitive small liberty contingent here. Yes there are Tea Partiers who we share some points with but for the most part on some really important issues, they side with the neocons.

We don't have to have majorities to prevail.

And yes it took well over a century to get where we are at now, we will not reverse leviathan overnight.

 

[hrdman2luv]

Except that the LP is incapable of winning almost any election. Half of it is not their fault though, it's because of ballto access laws. Other than maybe casting your vote in their direction, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to work within the LP.

Of course it doesn't makes sense. Neither did starting the Libertarian Party. Neither did fighting the RNC for ballot access. Neither does the Ron Paul revolution make any sense. Because they are all losing situations. But something has to be done. And if we go about this with an isolationist perspective, we will always be losing.
The reason why the Lp has lost so much, is because it's been isolated from the 2 party system. Which kepts it's numbers and popularity down so far, that not enough people would even take a second look.

But that's all changed now. Limited government, freedom, free market capitalism, civil liberties and other things we stand for, are much more popular now.

 

[Matt Collins]

Neither does the Ron Paul revolution make any sense. Because they are all losing situations. But something has to be done.

Uhh... the R3volution is alive and well and is growing not to mention trending upwards. Not sure what revolution you've been seeing, but this one is moving forward.

 

[Maltheus]

Except that the LP is incapable of winning almost any election. Half of it is not their fault though, it's because of ballto access laws. Other than maybe casting your vote in their direction, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to work within the LP.

This refrain is getting old. I do agree that the LP is somewhat dysfunctional, but you surely can't say they're more dysfunctional than the GOP, at this point. It's would be easier (not easy) to transform them into a major party, than it is to win the GOP from the evangelicals. You wanna go head-to-head with the Chic-fil-a crowd, good luck. You're going to need it.

 

[Josalyn]

I was always a Libertarian. The only reason I affiliated myself at all to the Republican party was because that was the ONLY way Ron Paul could run and get mainstream. The GOP is too corrupt and way too shady, I don't trust them with my vote at all so why would I stay with them?

 

[Occam's Banana]

There are those of us who feel our time, money and support is better spent with people who aren't as corrupt.

Politics is inherently corrupt. The ONLY reason the LP is not (yet) as corrupt as the GOP is because it is tiny & unsuccessful. You can (try to) avoid associating yourself with liars, cheaters, scoundrels & sociopaths by refusing to participate in anything but (supposedly) "pure" organizations (such as the LP). But by doing so, you will put yourself in the position of never being able to achieve electoral success. You will never be able to get a Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Justin Amash, or [whoever] into office. You can have one thing (small & pure, but ineffectual) or the other thing (large & impure, but effectual). You can't have both.

There are many perfectly legitimate reasons for going the "pure but ineffectual" route. Just a few of these are listed here:

- educational & promotional activism
- fellowship with like-minded individuals
- a lack of the intestinal fortitude that is required when dealing with sociopathic power-lusters
- a lack of the emotional resilience that is necessary when dealing with the plotting & cheating of our enemies

Note that "achieving & mantaining electoral success" is NOT on that list, and if you go the "puristic" route expecting to find it, you will be bitterly disappointed. If any "puristic" approach ever *does* achieve (and is able to maintain) any electoral success, it will cease to be pure. It will become just as corrupt as the GOP is now. That is just an ugly & inescapable fact of the nature of politics.

That is why - *IF* you are trying to achieve electoral success - the Libertarian Party is a waste of time. You will either fail OR (in the event of success) the LP will become just as monstrous as the GOP is now. Given that fact, it makes FAR more sense to continue working within the GOP - in the "belly of the beast" - rather than expend time, money, effort & resources trying to get the LP to where the GOP is already (in terms of support, infrastucture, social "credibility", etc.). Again, this is *IF* your objective is achieving & maintaining electoral success - if, as a liberty movement activist, that is NOT something you are overly concerned about or interested in, then the LP is indeed an eminently suitable avenue.