You don't win by quitting... (Ron is still a Republican)

[Matt Collins]

As individuals, we should all chose our own path - trying to fit people into a mold in the GOP reeks of central authority.

It's not central authority, but being divided and losing focus to non-viable options will diminish our ability to be effective. You don't fight a war on multiple fronts.

 

[donnay]

Leaving the Republican Party is just what they want you to do; don't let them win!

Remember, Ron Paul stayed with the GOP after they kept shafting him, and he has become one of the most influential Republicans in history. Don't give in or wimp out, otherwise the establishment wins!


DEFEATISM

We will recover, formulate a plan, build our numbers, wait patiently, and then come back and beat them next time

IMHO, Dr. Paul is only a Republican because of the phony left/right paradigm. True freedom lovers would like to see a strong third party emerge, that can put the screws to the left/right paradigm. The problem is the corruption is so tight, anyone running in a third party gets completely ignored just like Dr. Paul was ignored throughout the campaigns he ran this time and last. I don't understand why it is so hard for people to see this?

To get continually sucked in, is Einsteins definition of insanity:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."


Dr. Paul, at least, paved the road back to freedom with his message, and that message is what I am prepared to run with. I am not going to waste my time trying to stump for a politician who will eventually be compromised. Our founders warned us about democracy. We are a Republic, with representatives who are to uphold the constitution. We know they don't so, it is incumbent upon us to become the Representatives!

If I said this once, throughout these thread, I will say it a thousand more times until people understand; the power lies within each and everyone of us!! If you sit on the sidelines and expect others to do this job, you really are not interested in preserving liberty and fighting the corruption that has hijacked our government.

 

[twomp]

It's not central authority, but being divided and losing focus to non-viable options will diminish our ability to be effective. You don't fight a war on multiple fronts.

You keep on trying to RAM this "take over the gop" line down our throats. It certainly does sound like a central authority. You are just like the RNC saying let's unite to fight the DNC. How is what you are doing any different? You keep referencing Dr. Paul and what HE would do?

So tell us what would he do now? Would he advocate what you are doing or would he say just do what you want? As has been said many times now, if you want to work within the GOP, good luck. There are those of us who feel our time, money and support is better spent with people who aren't as corrupt. Why can't you accept that? Why do you insist on ramming this down our throats?

 

[TrishW]

You don't fight a war on multiple fronts.

That is why wars are fought over and over again. The idea that one side must dominate and gain control, provides only a temporal fix. We must infiltrate the entire government machine from the bottom to the top, using any avenue available. I do not promote a party, I promote an idea. Its not my idea, its not Ron Paul's idea, it belongs to all of humanity. Its God given... We are to be free.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

One thing I have aways liked about the Libertarian party is they are all inclusive as to who can run. Unfortunately it has also resulted in candidates whose official pics were taken while wearing overalls in some cases. If they had a bit of an image makeover...as shallow as that sounds it would help. In the L party I think knowledge trumps resume.

It may within the party, but it does not with the electorate.

See here is the thing about winning elections. You need money, name recognition and people. That is why in 90%+ of the cases people who get elected to office start at a local level. Each successive election builds a greater following and therefore you can move up the ladder. This is one of the main reasons the LP hasn't fielded a state legislature candidate on their own since the 80's. Every win since the 80's (and there have only been a few of them) are from previously elected state officials who ran as a fusion candidate (i.e. on both the GOP and LP ballot).

So it goes back to my original question. Who are these people that are going to run on the LP ticket and win elections? Some no-name person that has never held an elected office before is not going to win a Congressional or State legislature seat. You have to start small to win --- really small like a county or township office and build from there.

So if you want to build a third party, you will have to do so from the ground up. The LP has no known people waiting in the wings to win a congressional seat. They have no one in any office higher than a local one. So where is the farm team? Compare that with the dozens of Ron Paul republicans that are already elected into office at the local and state level. Take Tom Davis for example. He is a State Senator now, and he is going to take a serious run at US Senate in 2014. Multiple that by dozens of others across the country and you can see what will occur over the next 2-4 years. And we have a whole new crop of people that are running for committee seats across the country. That is how we reform the GOP - it is all about liberty activists getting off their asses and running for office.

So sure, you can run candidates in the LP (or another third party), but they cannot win because they simply do not have the background, experience, notoriety and money to seriously compete. Could Tom Davis win a Senate seat as an LP candidate? Quite possibly so, but unless you get all the RP Republicans across the country to join up with the LP (or a new party), you are going to be pissing in the wind trying to accomplish something.

My whole point of this is that we have a lot of people within the GOP who are poised to make a difference and move up the proverbial ladder to either state or federal offices. You just don't have that in the LP or a new party.

 

[Matt Collins]

IMHO, Dr. Paul is only a Republican because of the phony left/right paradigm. True freedom lovers would like to see a strong third party emerge, that can put the screws to the left/right paradigm.

I completely agree, but it's the world in which we curerently live and judging by history, it isn't changing any time soon.

I am not going to waste my time trying to stump for a politician who will eventually be compromised.

I completely agree with that too. And I would never do that myself or ask anyone else to either.

 

[jmdrake]

Put in context, and given the tone of his voice, he meant he doesn't have ownership of the GOP, not that he doesn't belong to the GOP. He also said he is super pleased in the direction we are going (in terms of how we are changing the GOP).

Regarding the comments about appealing to Dems and Inds, again, that was obvious that he meant that our ideals are appealing to them, but that it brings people into the GOP. It's a winning position.

Matt, you don't speak for Ron. Quit trying to. What Ron is talking about is bigger than the GOP. You're thinking tactics. Ron is thinking strategy. In the long term strategy always trumps tactics. And strategic thinking is that if you can have your influence working multiple angles at once then by all means do so. It's a simple concept if you will get outside the box you've drawn for yourself for a minute and think. Let's take Libertarian ballot access for instance. Anyone who is an "official" member of the GOP can't politically afford to help with that. But those that have no such affiliation, and can't even stomach such an affiliation, can. So if they can, and they'd like to, they should. Go back and study Ron's initial "joint endorsement" in 2008 of Baldwin, McKinney and Nader, followed by his eventual endorsement of Baldwin. Remember that Chuck Baldwin did not run as a Republican. Ron's not going to do anything like that this time solely because he doesn't want to hurt Rand. But that still reveals his overall strategy. You've just not been tactically a part of that.

 

[Matt Collins]

You keep referencing Dr. Paul and what HE would do?

It's not what hewould do, it's what he has done. Ron stuck with the Republican Party for decades even after they ignroed him, laughed at him, cheated him, etc. And it's a good thing he did, otherwise this movement likely wouldn't exist right now. Not to mention that Ron obviously understands that the Republican Party is the only viable vehicle available to us currently. The quicker everyone who wants liberty understands that the more effective the movement will be.

if you want to work within the GOP, good luck. There are those of us who feel our time, money and support is better spent with people who aren't as corrupt.

I don't want anyone to support anyone who is corrupt. That's what I'm saying, we become the GOP just like Minnesota and Iowa and Arizona have done.

 

[Matt Collins]

That is why wars are fought over and over again. The idea that one side must dominate and gain control, provides only a temporal fix. We must infiltrate the entire government machine from the bottom to the top, using any avenue available. I do not promote a party, I promote an idea. Its not my idea, its not Ron Paul's idea, it belongs to all of humanity. Its God given... We are to be free.

Either you have power or you don't. And if you don't that means someone else will. Ideally we will gain power and then attempt to diffuse it and stop it from being concentrated again in the future. Humans always want to dominate others, it's just human nature, it always has been, and always will be. The trick is to throw up enough hurdles and road blocks to make it very difficult to do. That's our job.

 

[acptulsa]

It's not central authority, but being divided and losing focus to non-viable options will diminish our ability to be effective. You don't fight a war on multiple fronts.

Tell it to Eisenhower and MacArthur. And even when there is no second front, one can still be well advised to send part of one's forces on a flanking maneuver. But, hey--thanks for yet another chiche!

Oh, and I'm still not entirely inclined to trust your judgement when it comes to which options are and aren't viable. Sorry. Hell, according to what Ron Paul just said about whether the GOP was 'his party' or not, apparently I can't even trust you to provide an accurate and truthful thread title.

 

[Matt Collins]

Go back and study Ron's initial "joint endorsement" in 2008 of Baldwin, McKinney and Nader, followed by his eventual endorsement of Baldwin. Remember that Chuck Baldwin did not run as a Republican. Ron's not going to do anything like that this time solely because he doesn't want to hurt Rand. But that still reveals his overall strategy. You've just not been tactically a part of that.

I agree, but working within the party structure and organization is very different from supporting a non-Republican candidate. Lots of "Ron Paul Republicans" will be voting for and supporting Gary Johnson this time around, but they are still Republicans.

 

[Matt Collins]

according to what Ron Paul just said about whether the GOP was 'his party' or not

If you listen to the tone of his voice and put his words in context with the question, it was obvious he meant that he doesn't posess, own, or control the Republican Party. He did not mean that he isn't a member of the GOP.

 

[Carlybee]

Let's not kid ourselves here. Some people and organizations have a vested interest in keeping the cash coming in from the liberty grassroots. This is as much about money as it is about strategy and ideology.

 

[hrdman2luv]

I only rejoined the republican party to support Ron Paul. They again, cheated lied and stole delegates. I'm not a republican anymore. I'm heading back over to the Libertarian Party to help them promote the Liberty movement. I feel like Ron Paul will do the same very soon. Even though, he may not say it publically, because of is son, I can't see Ron Paul supporting the republican party that's caused him so much grief for so long.

BTW, I'm not quitting anything except the republican party.

 

[Matt Collins]

Let's not kid ourselves here. Some people and organizations have a vested interest in keeping the cash coming in from the liberty grassroots. This is as much about money as it is about strategy and ideology.

My vested interest is winning back our liberty, and we do that by staying involved, becoming the Republican apparatus is the msot effective way to do it. Study Minnesota and Iowa for example.

 

[Matt Collins]

I only rejoined the republican party to support Ron Paul. They again, cheated lied and stole delegates. I'm not a republican anymore. I'm heading back over to the Libertarian Party to help them promote the Liberty movement. I feel like Ron Paul will do the same very soon. Even though, he may not say it publically, because of is son, I can't see Ron Paul supporting the republican party that's caused him so much grief for so long.

BTW, I'm not quitting anything except the republican party.

Why quit now after all of the gains that we have made? Ron stuck with it, even though they lied to him, cheated him, ignored him, etc. And now he is one of the most powerful Republicans in the country. You should stick with it too instead of giving up right as we are starting to have success.

 

[angelatc]

Why quit now after all of the gains that we have made? Ron stuck with it, even though they lied to him, cheated him, ignored him, etc. And now he is one of the most powerful Republicans in the country. You should stick with it too instead of giving up right as we are starting to have success.

I have absolutely no use for anything Collins says, but he is absolutely right about this. And - it is SO much easier to grab power when the Republicans are in office AND there's no upcoming Presidential elections. Just start going to the meetings, listen and learn.

In 2 years, you'll likely be the only person attending.

 

[hrdman2luv]

Why quit now after all of the gains that we have made? Ron stuck with it, even though they lied to him, cheated him, ignored him, etc. And now he is one of the most powerful Republicans in the country. You should stick with it too instead of giving up right as we are starting to have success.

The only thing I'm giving up on is the RNC. Not the movement. If the movement continues within the Republican party, I will support that effort. But only that effort. Not the party. I support the Libertarian party. But I'm not a libertarian. I have no, and refuse to have a label........

 

[Carlybee]

My vested interest is winning back our liberty, and we do that by staying involved, becoming the Republican apparatus is the msot effective way to do it. Study Minnesota and Iowa for example.

We all have a vested interest in restoring liberty and no one is disputing the gains that have been made but what just happened at the RNC indicates that the jury is now out on the effectiveness going forward for some of us anyway. The authoritarian approach some are taking here is not resonating.

 

[ninepointfive]

It's not central authority, but being divided and losing focus to non-viable options will diminish our ability to be effective. You don't fight a war on multiple fronts.

I refuse to pay any respect to people like you or the official campaign staffers. Yes, you are making an appeal to a central authority - C4L for instance. You guys want to call the shots, but often are subversive to the grassroots.

How about you respect other people's decisions and stop calling anyone defeatist for not working within your realm of smarmy politicos if they don't want to. I'm not saying you shouldn't work in the GOP - you'll fit right in with those types and we need people like yourself to do that nasty job.

That is why wars are fought over and over again. The idea that one side must dominate and gain control, provides only a temporal fix. We must infiltrate the entire government machine from the bottom to the top, using any avenue available. I do not promote a party, I promote an idea. Its not my idea, its not Ron Paul's idea, it belongs to all of humanity. Its God given... We are to be free.

Collins needs to feed his ego, and he's not only completely wrong, but completely misguided.

Thanks for making my point. Wars are indeed fought on multiple fronts, and this is correct and why I said it.