You don't win by quitting... (Ron is still a Republican)

[Smitty]

It's not 2008 anymore, Collins.

 

[Matt Collins]

It's not 2008 anymore, Collins.

Precisely, which is why the movement needs to mature and start working smarter.

 

[acptulsa]

It's a better fit than the Democrat party which is the only other viable vehicle available presently.

If you're referring to the Democratic Party, it's at least as good a fit as the GOP. It just has different strengths--in the realm of civil liberties, for example, and a constituency that does not favor war for spurious ends at the drop of a hat.

We don't need half of the people to vote for anyone. We need a minority who knows how to use pressure points to their advantage. Come to LPAC and get trained and you too will understand what I am referring to and how to be an effective political activist.

Why? Because votes created by 'pressure points' are better than votes with the voters' hearts and minds behind them?

If there was a way to do that I'd be all for it, but there is no viable alternative before us; Ron understands this.

Yeah, must be why he endorsed Chuck Baldwin four years ago. This is a point you keep ducking, ignoring, and hoping will go away. Care to address it?

What was it you called the shift from the Whigs to the newly-fledged Republican Party in the mid-nineteenth century? A 'slide'? Well, the GOP is sliding into darkness right now, and you have filled this thread with everything but a rational argument for why trying to wash the taint off the GOP is a better course than building up the LP to replace it outright. I, for one, am waiting for that rational argument.

 

[Smitty]

Have fun with it.

I'm a Libertarian by nature.

My vote will go for the Libertarian candidate.

I wish it could be Ron Paul,...but he's retiring,...and the GOP has gone despot in its bid to eliminate him from contention.

It's not a viable venue for anything liberty related any longer.

 

[Fredom101]

No. Leaving the GOP at this point is the perfect thing to do. Ron leaves them when they NEED his voters to support Romney. This will guarantee a GOP implosion. And if you are pro-liberty, you cannot seriously be pro-GOP. I say Ron, take your voters and walk away. Join the LP again or just quit altogether, publicly. It will go down as a great moment in the history of liberty.

 

[twomp]

The GOP can't be the ONLY way to liberty. We can't just put all our eggs in one basket especially when that basket has GOP on it's label. Mr. Collins may call us quitters and defeatist because we don't fall in line with his plan to "take over the GOP" but all we are doing is taking a different route to the same destination. He likes to throw in Ron Paul's name for effect but if we were to ask the good doctor himself, he would say do what you want.

I went to Dr. Paul's rally in Berkley and what I saw was thousands of people with whom a majority were Democrats cheering him on. I hope that in the upcoming years, one or more of these people at Berkley, UCLA and Davis go on to become a "Ron Paul Democrat". It would be easier to get elected as one in my state as opposed to a Ron Paul Republican.

In any case, if you decide that the GOP is your vehicle of preference, I wish you the best of luck. As for me, I'd rather spend my money and time supporting liberty folks outside the 2 main parties.

 

[Matt Collins]

No. Leaving the GOP at this point is the perfect thing to do. Ron leaves them when they NEED his voters to support Romney. This will guarantee a GOP implosion. And if you are pro-liberty, you cannot seriously be pro-GOP. I say Ron, take your voters and walk away. Join the LP again or just quit altogether, publicly. It will go down as a great moment in the history of liberty.

I didn't say to support Romney this cycle at all . But I am talking about long-term changing the Party from within.

 

[Matt Collins]

The GOP can't be the ONLY way to liberty.

Of course not, it would be foolish to think so. However it is the most effective quickest route available to us at this time.

I went to Dr. Paul's rally in Berkley and what I saw was thousands of people with whom a majority were Democrats cheering him on. I hope that in the upcoming years, one or more of these people at Berkley, UCLA and Davis go on to become a "Ron Paul Democrat". It would be easier to get elected as one in my state as opposed to a Ron Paul Republican.

Very true, but remember though, Ron ran as a Republican multiple times for a reason - they most closely aligned with his views of liberty.

 

[jkob]

I will vote in the GOP primaries for worthy candidates, I'll support those candidates if they win their nominations, I'll be there in 2016 for whatever candidate we have running for president. This will be the extent of support I have for the Republican party.

 

[CUnknown]

The GOP is not redeemable. It is corrupt to the core. I don't want to be a part of an organization that hates me and hates liberty. They treated us like dirt, and you want us to stay with them? They spit on liberty and the Constitution, and change their own rules and lie and cheat to stop us and you're like "Next time, guys!" Give me a break. Anyone, including Rand, who still want to work within the party, I have serious questions about.

The GOP deserves to fall apart. It doesn't deserve us. The best thing that can happen now is that the Dems win every year and it becomes very obvious that we're a one-party totalitarian state.

 

[acptulsa]

But I am talking about long-term changing the Party from within.

For the love of God, man, we know this already! You have told us and told us and fucking told us!

Can you not come up with one single damned original argument? One? Hell, you haven't talked about how the GOP already has a primary system in place, or how if we fail the organization we put together in our local Republican parties can be transferred to another party more easily than vice versa, or how some local laws favor the DP and RP. Can you not come up with one crappy thing that doesn't amount to you repeating yourself over and over and freaking over again? Are you a crappy broken record? Damnation!

Your goofy-assed appeals to authority as though Ron Paul, for all his considerable virtues, was God Almighty Himself isn't doing one fucking thing to help you put your crappy argument across. Not one thing. If you can't come up with something to further your cause, if you can't refute one logical point, then why don't you keep your platitude-filled pie hole shut already? It's bound to be better for your cause to give up on it than to keep buzzing in three nearly identical thread with the same old droning until it drives the whole forum smooth nuts. I actually have to give you ideas on how to argue with me just to keep my irritated ass awake long enough to refute your next batch of triteness!

You not only make no more sense than Dubya, you're even more arrogant and even more repetitious. I didn't think that was even possible. But I know what isn't possible--winning the hearts and minds of libertarians through such GOP tried and tired techniques as stubbornly bludgeoning people into submission through infinite, tireless but tiresome repetition!

Lord save me!

 

[Matt Collins]

The GOP is not redeemable. It is corrupt to the core. I don't want to be a part of an organization that hates me and hates liberty. They treated us like dirt, and you want us to stay with them?

I didn't say vote for them, I said get in there and change them out, force them to modify their behavior, and just block their moves by outnumbering them. They have political power and it needs to be taken from them.

Not to mention that the Republican Party is NOT monolithic, although there is definately an establishment. But they are vulnerable because we outnumber them.

Anyone, including Rand, who still want to work within the party, I have serious questions about.

Good thing Ron didn't take your attitude over the last 40 years since practically only 1 of his bills have ever been passed.

The GOP deserves to fall apart. It doesn't deserve us.

I agree but I'm not going to sit back and let them run over me, I'm going to fight for liberty. It would be nice to have some help.

 

[Matt Collins]

For the love of God, man, we know this already! You have told us and told us and fucking told us!

Reptition is what it takes for many people to come to understand what is being communicated.

Obviously for some, more repitition is still needed.

 

[acptulsa]

Reptition is what it takes for many people to come to understand what is being communicated.

Obviously for some, more repitition is still needed.

Obviously. So, here you go:

You won't win hearts and minds here by underestimating the hell out of us. You win hearts and minds on a libertarian forum by addressing concerns, not by repeating yourself like a damned tape loop. What you do when you imitate a skipping record is piss people off, turn them off, and make them convinced your argument is spurious and indefensible.

All I'm doing here is telling you how not to shoot yourself in the foot, just in case you're interested. You aren't selling toilet paper to a soap opera audience, Collins. Adapt or STFU.

 

[Maltheus]

Wow, 10 pages and nobody mention the fact that Ron Paul walked out of his own convention and head home to Texas (before even Rand's speech)? That doesn't really jibe with his message of toughing it out within the party. Perhaps he now recognizes the futility?

 

[Matt Collins]

Wow, 10 pages and nobody mention the fact that Ron Paul walked out of his own convention and head home to Texas (before even Rand's speech)? That doesn't really jibe with his message of toughing it out within the party. Perhaps he now recognizes the futility?

Maybe he was scheduled to leave, or had to leave for another reason? I dunno

 

[Maltheus]

Maybe he was scheduled to leave, or had to leave for another reason? I dunno

Scheduled to leave??? From a convention he knew about all year? Short of a health emergency (which I doubt since they went to Texas, not the hospital), I can't imagine a legitimate reason.

 

[CUnknown]

Ron just can't be happy with how this went down. He is holding his rage in check for his son. If Ron was just starting out politics today, I am pretty damn sure he wouldn't be a Republican. Not with how they treated him. It's so outrageous. What else could they do, give him a wedgie on national TV? That's about all they haven't done yet..

 

[Carlybee]

Sigh. I just had to sit through a meeting where my neocon boss and her neocon colleague sat and extolled the virtues of Romney and Ryan and oh what a wonderful speaker Ryan was last night and she better not hear that I wrote in Ron Paul like last time and why did they give a tribute to that "nut" and then let his son give a speech. Yep they'll be rolling over to our side any day now. Excuse me while I go stick a knife in my eye.

 

[erowe1]

Wow, 10 pages and nobody mention the fact that Ron Paul walked out of his own convention and head home to Texas (before even Rand's speech)? That doesn't really jibe with his message of toughing it out within the party. Perhaps he now recognizes the futility?

How does Ron doing that have anything at all to do with the message of toughing it out within the party?