Who needs cranky Ayn Rand when we have Thomas Jefferson?

[prmd142]

Staring, the misconceptions about her have to be cleared up.
1) She wasn't against charity. At all. She was against FORCED "charity".
2) She wasn't militant. She favored non-intervention. The youtube clip always used against her is misleading. She felt the Iranians had violated property rights when they nationalized the oil rigs that we built.Therefore, we had the right to reclaim our property that she felt was stolen from us.
3) Her emphasis wasn't money or "hating poor people". Her emphasis was on ACHIEVEMENT with money being the proper award for that achievement. She was vehemently against "looters" who used the government, or force in general, to acquire wealth.

My comparison to Einstein and Newton is like this. Think of your thoughts and beliefs as a large structure, a skyscraper say. Most genius' come along with ways to tweak that structure, or apply parts of it and new and effective ways. Occasionally, some genius' turn the whole structure on it's head. That's what people like Einstein and Rand did.

+1776

 

[doodle]

2) She wasn't militant. She favored non-intervention. The youtube clip always used against her is misleading. She felt the Iranians had violated property rights when they nationalized the oil rigs that we built.Therefore, we had the right to reclaim our property that she felt was stolen from us.

So when Palestinians property rights were violated, she supported US giving support to Palestinians so they can defend their property?

Courtesy of another esteemed member:

Ayn Rand on Israel (Ford Hall Forum lecture, 1974)

Q: What should the United Sates do about the [1973] Arab-Israeli War?

AR: Give all the help possible to Israel. Consider what is at stake. It is not the moral duty of any country to send men to die helping another country. The help Israel needs is technology and military weapons—and they need them desperately. Why should we help Israel? Israel is fighting not just the Arabs but Soviet Russia, who is sending the Arabs armaments. Russia is after control of the Mediterranean and oil.

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=media_america_at_war_israeli_arab_conflict

PLAYBOY: . . . And that any free nation today has the moral right -- though not the duty -- to invade Soviet Russia, Cuba, or any other "slave pen." Correct?

RAND: Correct. A dictatorship -- a country that violates the rights of its own citizens -- is an outlaw and can claim no rights.

http://freedomkeys.com/ar-playboy.htm

I could be right but from what I have seen so far, she comes across as a major league hypocrite and a practioner of militant collectivism.

 

[Agorism]

US government violates property rights all the time so Russia has the right to invade?

 

[MaxPower]

Indeed, Rand was clearly far more militarily interventionist than most here (including myself) would like, though I do think it should also be pointed out that Jefferson himself was not a pure libertarian of the Ron Paul stripe, either; there were times (see, say, the early-to-mid-1780s) in which he toyed with some ideas that would now be considered "Progressive" (eg. land redistribution and a comprehensive inheritance tax), and though he did not stick with most of these ideas or push them in office, he did, for example, support the establishment of a (quite modest, compared to what we have now, and without compulsory attendance) public school system in the Virginia legislature, and partake of a couple relatively un-libertarian actions in his presidential stint, such as the Louisiana Purchase and Embargo Act. Jefferson would be readily identifiable in today's political spectrum as as a libertarian- he disdained deficit spending, opposed central banking and paper money, believed in the right to state nullification and secession, was generally on the side of civil liberties, foreign non-interventionism, low taxes, etc.- but even he was not ideologically pure on the level of a Ron Paul.

 

[Agorism]

Jefferson has the best political rhetoric and his Declaration was ideologically pure. He shrank government and the British government, and he was not one of those at the Constitutional Convention trying to make a new big government to replace it.

 

[Carehn]

One time Ron Paul did something or said something that contradicted his life's work. Guess we have to scrap the old revolution and hold off till the perfect human is born.

I don't get why so many people who have NEVER read Rand can have so much against her. And on this site! Not just talking about this thread and its posters but all the other Rand threads ever on this site.

Jefferson had slaves! Should we scrap the declaration then?

 

[Depressed Liberator]

Rand was an asshole in every way possible.

 

[doodle]

I would have asked:

Who needs cranky Ayn Rand when we have Rudy Giuliani?

In quick sampling of philosophies of the two, both are anti socialists, individualists ( although both seem hypocritical on this at times), objectivists and support pursuit of personal happiness, conservative leaning, anti welfare state, pro foreign wars and diminshed liberties at home/patriot act.

I have yet to see any meaningful difference in policies/advocaies of Ayn Rand Institute and Rudy Giuliani.

 

[low preference guy]

In quick sampling of philosophies of the two, both are anti socialists, individualists ( although both seem hypocritical on this at times), objectivists and support pursuit of personal happiness, conservative leaning, anti welfare state, pro foreign wars and diminshed liberties at home/patriot act..

Thank you for destroying your own credibility.

It's good to know you're either a shameless liar or on a cocaine trip.

 

[Carehn]

I would have asked:

Who needs cranky Ayn Rand when we have Rudy Giuliani?

I have yet to see any meaningful difference in policies/advocaies of Ayn Rand Institute and Rudy Giuliani.

didn't know thats what we where talking about. I don't see much difference between giuliani and the country Jefferson started.

So i guess giuliani and Jefferson would be about the same?

 

[R3volutionJedi]

Who cares for Ayn Rand when we have Thomas Jefferson -

Amen!
+1000

 

[Agorism]

Ayn Rand thought the Arabs were savages.

Wikipedia anti-arab page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism

In the mid-1970s, a prominent American libertarian author, scholar and philosopher, Ayn Rand, advocated strong anti-Arab sentiment following the Arab-Israeli War of 1973: "The Arabs are one of the least developed cultures. They are typically nomads. Their culture is primitive, and they resent Israel because it's the sole beachhead of modern science and civilization on their continent. When you have civilized men fighting savages, you support the civilized men, no matter who they are."[81]

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=media_america_at_war_israeli_arab_conflict

 

[doodle]

didn't know thats what we where talking about. I don't see much difference between giuliani and the country Jefferson started.

So i guess giuliani and Jefferson would be about the same?

Just to narrow the frame, I'll stick with current advocacies/supported policies of Ayan Rand Institute and compare them to those of Rudy Giuliani. AR is not arround, but let's assume ARI people are faithful to her philosophical outlook.

I'm also thinking if this could derail OP's thread and can start a new discussion on this.

In the meantime, if there are any key differences in what Rudi Giuliani has advocated vs ARI, I am prepared to be corrected.

 

[Carehn]

Just to narrow the frame, I'll stick with current advocacies/supported policies of Ayan Rand Institute and compare them to those of Rudy Giuliani. AR is not arround, but let's assume ARI people are faithful to her philosophical outlook.

I'm also thinking if this could derail OP's thread and can start a new discussion on this.

In the meantime, if there are any key differences in what Rudi Giuliani has advocated vs ARI, I am prepared to be corrected.

We where going at it last night a little right? Fine you win. Ayn Rand was an evil, statist, warmongering, bitch... And a horrible writer. I bet she would have voted for Obama. Twice!

 

[Carehn]

Ayn Rand thought the Arabs were savages.

Wikipedia anti-arab page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism



http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=media_america_at_war_israeli_arab_conflict

One last thing....


they are

 

[doodle]

We where going at it last night a little right? Fine you win. Ayn Rand was an evil, statist, warmongering, bitch... And a horrible writer. I bet she would have voted for Obama. Twice!

I don't yet enough to predict her vote but her current deciples at ARI I believe would have voted for Obama over Ron Paul.

Ron Paul wants to cut all foreign welfare ( including financial and military aid to Israel) and would not be bombing foreign countries or bending Constitution to strip liberties by increasing government powers through things like Patriot Act despite any ad campaign funded by Ayan Rand's students/Atlas Shrugged producers.

There is no win/lose here, just exchange of views.

 

[Agorism]

I wonder if she supported the US Government having a giant nuclear arsenal?

Bet she did.

 

[Depressed Liberator]

One last thing....


they are

get out

 

[doodle]

One last thing....


they are

Are you a collectivist or individualist?

 

[Agorism]

Ayn Rand was a collectivist as she was constantly attacking anarchists and Libertarians.