Second Amendment: Jefferson Papers Prove Founders Intended Us to Have "Weapons of War"

[James_Madison_Lives]

Second Amendment: Jefferson Papers Prove Founders Intended Us to Have "Weapons of War"

This settles how any court must interpret 2A. No it's not about hunting, with semi-auto .223 consisting of "weapons of war" in an ignorant libtard's fevered imagination.

"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

- Thomas Jefferson Papers, pg 334


So there it is. The Founders INTENDED for us to have "weapons of war," at least a rough equivalence of force to the common government foot soldier. No it doesn't mean everyone needs a rocket launcher.

It does mean the entire argument that the kind of arms they had in mind were mere hunting rifles, is baloney. The arms they meant were likely small arms, but with a enough firepower to discourage blatant tyranny. Not a hunting rifle useless in a firefight. That fits an AR to a tee.

So anytime a libtard gives you the hunting rifle vs. weapon of war bullcrap, educate them on the thinking and endless wisdom of our Founders. Who knew that weapons might change, but people do not.

 

[Sonny Tufts]

"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

- Thomas Jefferson Papers, pg 334

There is no evidence Jefferson ever wrote the second sentence.

No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms.

This sentence comes from Thomas Jefferson's three drafts of the Virginia Constitution. The text varies slightly from the first draft to the subsequent drafts:

First Draft: "No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms."[1]

Second Draft: "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms [within his own lands or tenements]."[2]

Third Draft: "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms [within his own lands or tenements]"[3]

This sentence does not appear in the Virginia Constitution as adopted.

Note: This sentence "No freeman shall ever be debarred..." is often seen paired with the following: "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." The latter sentence does not appear in the Virginia Constitution drafts or text as adopted, nor in any other known Jefferson writings.
https://www.monticello.org/research...opedia/no-freeman-shall-be-debarred-use-arms/

See also:

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...son-didnt-say-people-should-be-armed-protect/
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/thomas-jefferson-gun-quote/
https://www.cnn.com/2013/01/11/opinion/jefferson-fake-gun-quotation/index.html

 

[Matt Collins]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GssArZxVr7I

 

[Krugminator2]

There is no evidence Jefferson ever wrote the second sentence.



See also:

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...son-didnt-say-people-should-be-armed-protect/
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/thomas-jefferson-gun-quote/
https://www.cnn.com/2013/01/11/opinion/jefferson-fake-gun-quotation/index.html

Unfortunately even smart people don't spend two seconds using Google. I assume Rand's Chief of Staff and not Rand actually wrote the book but still... https://theweek.com/speedreads/561614/rand-paul-made-bunch-thomas-jefferson-quotes

 

[Okie RP fan]

See also:

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...son-didnt-say-people-should-be-armed-protect/
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/thomas-jefferson-gun-quote/
https://www.cnn.com/2013/01/11/opinion/jefferson-fake-gun-quotation/index.html

You couldn't have picked worse fact checking sites. All of those organizations are overwhelmingly left leaning with retards running them. Maybe try to do better next time?

Sorry, some of us don't have the patience anymore for low effort responses and those that include silly fact checks from... CNN... and Snopes...

 

[acptulsa]

There is no evidence Jefferson ever wrote the second sentence.

There is some evidence. The claim itself is evidence, though not conclusive. The fact that he borrowed the one sentence for the Virginia constitution, but not the other, is proof of nothing.

Regardless of whether he said that exact quote or not, you can't deny that those were his sentiments.

And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.

Written to William Smith in 1787. If Snopes denies it, call them liars for me.

 

[Sonny Tufts]

You couldn't have picked worse fact checking sites. All of those organizations are overwhelmingly left leaning with retards running them. Maybe try to do better next time?

Sorry, some of us don't have the patience anymore for low effort responses and those that include silly fact checks from... CNN... and Snopes...

If you think you have evidence that the quote is genuine, post it. Or do you think the Thomas Jefferson Foundation is a left-leaning organization run by retards?

 

[Sonny Tufts]

The claim itself is evidence

A bare claim is no evidence at all. It is merely an unsubstantiated claim.

 

[acptulsa]

A bare claim is no evidence at all. It is merely an unsubstantiated claim.

A bare claim? Don't be a supercilious twit, if you can find a way to avoid it. The internet is so full of people all making that same claim, it almost amounts to lore.

No, courts don't necessarily accept lore as evidence. But no serious archaeologist is dumb enough to ignore the stuff.

Who cares if there's "no evidence" a good, true quote is properly attributed other than someone who attempts to discredit the wisdom of it by casting aspersions on the person who repeated it? How is repeating an unproven attribution more dishonest than just repeating it, as though it's their own? And if it isn't, why are you raising a stink over it? Bored?

Or do you think the Thomas Jefferson Foundation is a left-leaning organization run by retards?

Who? Did they have something to do with your so-called refutations? Why don't you link them, instead of linking sites famous for telling half truths and concealing the rest, context be damned? How are we supposed to gleam what the foundation says from hearsay, without best evidence, counselor?

 

[dannno]

Or do you think the Thomas Jefferson Foundation is a left-leaning organization run by retards?

Probably went into debt back in the day and was bought by a Rockefeller, Rothschild or some such. Followed by destroying any primary source materials that they found abhorrent to their agenda.

 

[acptulsa]

Probably...

You probably aren't impressing old Sonny. Maybe if you changed your handle to Snopes he might actually read your suppositions. When they say probably didn't he seems to regard that as Gospel.

 

[Sonny Tufts]

The internet is so full of people all making that same claim, it almost amounts to lore.

The fact that a lot of gullible people repeat the same bogus quote doesn't make it true.

Who? Did they have something to do with your so-called refutations? Why don't you link them, instead of linking sites famous for telling half truths and concealing the rest, context be damned? How are we supposed to gleam what the foundation says from hearsay, without best evidence, counselor?

I did link to them, but you were apparently too wrapped up in your uninformed indignation that you failed to go to the link. Here, I'll post it again:

No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms.

This sentence comes from Thomas Jefferson's three drafts of the Virginia Constitution. The text varies slightly from the first draft to the subsequent drafts:

First Draft: "No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms."[1]

Second Draft: "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms [within his own lands or tenements]."[2]

Third Draft: "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms [within his own lands or tenements]"[3]

This sentence does not appear in the Virginia Constitution as adopted.

Note: This sentence "No freeman shall ever be debarred..." is often seen paired with the following: "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." The latter sentence does not appear in the Virginia Constitution drafts or text as adopted, nor in any other known Jefferson writings.
https://www.monticello.org/research-...rred-use-arms/.

The monticello.org site is run by the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, which owns and operates Monticello and conducts educational initiatives. See https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson-foundation/thomas-jefferson-foundation-an-overview/

Both the CNN and Politifact articles I linked to (which you probably never bothered to read) referenced the monticello.com article, so if they're lying then so is the Thomas Jefferson Foundation.

 

[acptulsa]

Both the CNN and Politifact articles I linked to (which you probably never bothered to read) referenced the monticello.com article, so if they're lying then so is the Thomas Jefferson Foundation.

Hold on, counselor.

So if CNN and Politifact lie, and in the same articles both reference Third Party X, that makes Third Party X a liar too? What if they lied about what Third Party X said?

Your nitpicking is getting nitpicked, counsel. And still neither of us has proven that Jefferson did or didn't say that sentence. Neither of us has distracted everyone from the fact that it echoes Jefferson's sentiments accurately, either. Sorry, you failed. Get over it.

 

[oyarde]

The Oyarde foundation says I should have access to the same arms the govt has in order to eventually protect myself from the govt which the govt has demonstrated through hundreds of yrs is the most likely scenario to be achieved.

 

[Okie RP fan]

If you think you have evidence that the quote is genuine, post it. Or do you think the Thomas Jefferson Foundation is a left-leaning organization run by retards?

I'm not disputing any of the claims in this thread one way or another. I'm simply stating that the sources you provided are shit. They come from shit organizations with proven shit reputations to anyone paying attention.

And to your last question... Most organizations, companies, etc. seem to be run by left leaning retards anymore, so yea... that's the rule, not the exception, in 2023.

 

[acptulsa]

I'm not disputing any of the claims in this thread one way or another. I'm simply stating that the sources you provided are $#@!. They come from $#@! organizations with proven $#@! reputations to anyone paying attention.

Seriously. And then he puts the attribution/link to the one foundation that might actually have physical evidence to look at inside the quote box. You'd think a lawyer would have some idea how to avoid making it easier for people to make him look like an idiot:

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...son-didnt-say-people-should-be-armed-protect/
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/thomas-jefferson-gun-quote/
https://www.cnn.com/2013/01/11/opinion/jefferson-fake-gun-quotation/index.html

It still amazes me that these spin doctors pretend like snopes and their ilk can't possibly quote their sources out of context, even though I just proved how incredibly easy it is to do (especially to someone begging you to do it by making it easier).

And to your last question... Most organizations, companies, etc. seem to be run by left leaning retards anymore, so yea... that's the rule, not the exception, in 2023.

And those which aren't are being pressured hard. Hard. If Schwab can bring enough money to bear to convince both Target and Anheuser Busch that blowing their own feet off with RPGs is a sound business decision, what chance has a little historical foundation got?

 

[A Son of Liberty]

“I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.” – George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

“Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops.” – Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

“Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.” – James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence … I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” – Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

“To disarm the people…s the most effectual way to enslave them.” – George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

“f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

“As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.” – Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

https://thefederalistpapers.org/us/the-founding-fathers-explain-the-second-amendment-this-says-it-all

It seems rather clear what the intent behind the 2nd Amendment was, according to the drafters of the Bill of Rights. NO relevant writings of the founders make mention of hunting, or "sport" shooting. Let's not be obtuse, here - they literally had just successfully fought and won a war against the most powerful military in the world at the time, and did so in large part due to the fact that firearm ownership and discipline by the populace was as common as eggs for breakfast is today. Any argument to the contrary, quite frankly, is absurd.

 

[nobody's_hero]

America's first navy was a fleet of about a half dozen sloops commissioned privately by George Washington.

This flag was their first ensign:

And where the body of the people, or any single man, is deprived of their right, or is under the exercise of a power without right, and have no appeal on earth, then they have a liberty to appeal to heaven, whenever they judge the cause of sufficient moment. And therefore, though the people cannot be judge, so as to have, by the constitution of that society, any superior power, to determine and give effective sentence in the case; yet they have, by a law antecedent and paramount to all positive laws of men, reserved that ultimate determination to themselves which belongs to all mankind, where there lies no appeal on earth, viz. to judge, whether they have just cause to make their appeal to heaven. - John Locke

Now where can I get an old PT boat? I don't live near any water, but you never know.

. Let's not be obtuse, here..

Just a reminder, you're on RPF (2023 edition).