Which Came First: The Church or the New Testament?

[TER]

Dude,, your argument is not with me.

Your argument is with Jesus Christ.

No, the argument is with you and St. Paul and every Church Father and Christian going back 2000 years who called their male parent 'father' in addition to those who called their elders and spiritual guides 'father' as St. Paul was to St. Timothy.

I think it is you who have the misunderstanding of what Christ meant. After all, did not Christ say "honor your father and mother?"

Acts 7:2, Stephen refers to "our father Abraham,"

Romans 9:10 Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."

So, the problem as I see it is that you are misinterpreting what Christ meant.

He was telling us that no leader may set up his own interpretation of the faith and seek followers for his opinion apart from Him and His Church.

 

[Eagles' Wings]

No, the argument is with you and St. Paul and every Church Father and Christian going back 2000 years who called their male parent 'father' in addition to those who called their elders and spiritual guides 'father' as St. Paul was to St. Timothy.

I think it is you who have the misunderstanding of what Christ meant. After all, did not Christ say "honor your father and mother?"

Acts 7:2, Stephen refers to "our father Abraham,"

Romans 9:10 Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."

So, the problem as I see it is that you are misinterpreting what Christ meant.

He was telling us that no leader may set up his own interpretation of the faith and seek followers for his opinion apart from Him and His Church.

As usual, one of us imperfect humans are misunderstanding Scripture. What else is new, TER?

Where is that passage again, where Jesus Christ says we are to call priests, "Father"?

 

[Eagles' Wings]

It seems churches or congregations were only known by the name where they were located when Jesus was addressing them in the book of Revelation. There was no mention of denomination.

So what happens when one congregation decides it's the one and only Church?

The Reformation happens! Praise God, for prompting Luther to post his concerns on the church door in Wittenberg, Germany.

 

[Ronin Truth]

It seems churches or congregations were only known by the name where they were located when Jesus was addressing them in the book of Revelation. There was no mention of denomination.

So what happens when one congregation decides it's the one and only Church?

~33,000 denominations and splinters.

 

[Eagles' Wings]

Did not read the OP because it is too long and single space is hard to read.

Jesus Christ, is the Pillar and Foundation of the Church. The Church, founded upon Christ, delights in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, with/in the New Testament.
(John 14:25-26)

 

[Eagles' Wings]

The Holy Spirit called the Church and the whole of Scripture into existence.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

As usual, one of us imperfect humans are misunderstanding Scripture. What else is new, TER?

Where is that passage again, where Jesus Christ says we are to call priests, "Father"?

If everything in Christian life to you relies on the red letter text, Reformationism is almost entirely wrong.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

The Reformation happens! Praise God, for prompting Luther to post his concerns on the church door in Wittenberg, Germany.

Why is it better to splinter and weaken Christians than to negotiate reform and unite them? I don't recall much of what Luther got right beyond his criticism of the Bishop of Rome (the Pope).

 

[Eagles' Wings]

If everything in Christian life to you relies on the red letter text, Reformationism is almost entirely wrong.

Referring to TER's post where he determined that Pete was misinterpreting Jesus' words. Matthew 23 would be the "red letter" text that some use to affirm title of "Father" for their priests. In context, it seems to me that Christ is warning against the temptation to place authority and titles in any other than Himself.

 

[Eagles' Wings]

Why is it better to splinter and weaken Christians than to negotiate reform and unite them? I don't recall much of what Luther got right beyond his criticism of the Bishop of Rome (the Pope).

HB, history says that there was no room for negotiation from Rome . Even the princes of the region sided with Luther against the Pope, at great peril to their lives.

Luther brought the Scripture, in German, to the people. He taught justification is by faith alone, in Christ alone. He taught that the people did not have to pay for their sins through indulgences (still a teaching, in the Catechism).

Luther told the people to read their bibles and they loved it.

Luther was excommunicated for this.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

HB, history says that there was no room for negotiation from Rome . Even the princes of the region sided with Luther against the Pope, at great peril to their lives.

Luther brought the Scripture, in German, to the people. He taught justification is by faith alone, in Christ alone. He taught that the people did not have to pay for their sins through indulgences (still a teaching, in the Catechism).

Luther told the people to read their bibles and they loved it.

Luther was excommunicated for this.

Nope. Luther was given more than enough time to justify his position, but failed to do it.

The time limit of 60 days set by the Bull Exsurge Domine, during which Martin Luther was supposed to make an act of obedience to the Pope, expired on the 27th November 1520, after copies of the papal bull had been put on the doors of the Cathedrals of Meissen, Merseburg and Brandenburg, and after the German friar received the original document, he burnt it with contempt. Since Luther decided to proceed along his way (in suo pravo et damnato proposito obstinatum), the Pope had no other choice than to carry out the threat clearly announced in the document of the 15th June 1520.

On January 3, 1521, Pope Leo X issues the papal bull Decet Romanum Pontificem, which excommunicates Martin Luther from the Catholic Church.

Martin Luther, the chief catalyst of Protestantism, was a professor of biblical interpretation at the University of Wittenberg in Germany when he drew up his 95 theses condemning the Catholic Church for its corrupt practice of selling indulgences, or the forgiveness of sins. He followed up the revolutionary work with equally controversial and groundbreaking theological works, and his fiery words set off religious reformers all across Europe.

In January 1521, Pope Leo X excommunicated Luther. Three months later, Luther was called to defend his beliefs before Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt2"]the Diet of Worms, where he was famously defiant. For his refusal to recant his writings, the emperor declared him an outlaw and a heretic. Luther was protected by powerful German princes, however, and by his death in 1546, the course of Western civilization had been significantly altered.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

From history.com

 

[TER]

As usual, one of us imperfect humans are misunderstanding Scripture. What else is new, TER?

Hi Lousie! Not much is new, as misunderstandings of Scripture are a dime a dozen in this relativistic, individualistic, and materialistic post-Christian world, but thank God we can find the pillar of truth in the Church, (also known by the Apostle as the Body of Christ), so that our vanity and pride does not lead us to false interpretation. I try to to keep my conclusions to a minimum knowing how imperfect I am and choose the wisdom of those greater then me for guidance.

Where is that passage again, where Jesus Christ says we are to call priests, "Father"?

That is an excellent question! I am happy you are joining into the debate!

First answer me this: Where in the Bible did Christ tell His Apostles to abandon circumcision?

 

[TER]

Did not read the OP because it is too long and single space is hard to read.

That is a shame. I think you would find it quite informative. (I formatted the OP for easier reading)

Jesus Christ, is the Pillar and Foundation of the Church. The Church, founded upon Christ, delights in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, with/in the New Testament.
(John 14:25-26)

Amen!

 

[Eagles' Wings]

Nope. Luther was given more than enough time to justify his position, but failed to do it.

The time limit of 60 days set by the Bull Exsurge Domine, during which Martin Luther was supposed to make an act of obedience to the Pope, expired on the 27th November 1520, after copies of the papal bull had been put on the doors of the Cathedrals of Meissen, Merseburg and Brandenburg, and after the German friar received the original document, he burnt it with contempt. Since Luther decided to proceed along his way (in suo pravo et damnato proposito obstinatum), the Pope had no other choice than to carry out the threat clearly announced in the document of the 15th June 1520.

On January 3, 1521, Pope Leo X issues the papal bull Decet Romanum Pontificem, which excommunicates Martin Luther from the Catholic Church.

Martin Luther, the chief catalyst of Protestantism, was a professor of biblical interpretation at the University of Wittenberg in Germany when he drew up his 95 theses condemning the Catholic Church for its corrupt practice of selling indulgences, or the forgiveness of sins. He followed up the revolutionary work with equally controversial and groundbreaking theological works, and his fiery words set off religious reformers all across Europe.

In January 1521, Pope Leo X excommunicated Luther. Three months later, Luther was called to defend his beliefs before Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at [TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt2"]the Diet of Worms, where he was famously defiant. For his refusal to recant his writings, the emperor declared him an outlaw and a heretic. Luther was protected by powerful German princes, however, and by his death in 1546, the course of Western civilization had been significantly altered.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

From history.com

HB, the simple fact is that Luther would not recant. He stood by Scripture and conviction, given by God. By the time of the Diet of Worms, his writings were extensive and the common man was reading them. The papacy wanted him stopped, the money from indulgences had dropped dramatically. The Pope's desire to build St. Peter's on the backs of the poor, was in jeopardy.

It is so simple. God brought the man Luther, to accomplish a great work, and that is what happened.

The powerful German princes were convinced that Luther was bringing them the truth.

 

[Eagles' Wings]

Hi Lousie! Not much is new, as misunderstandings of Scripture are a dime a dozen in this relativistic, individualistic, and materialistic post-Christian world, but thank God we can find the pillar of truth in the Church, (also known by the Apostle as the Body of Christ), so that our vanity and pride does not lead us to false interpretation. I try to to keep my conclusions to a minimum knowing how imperfect I am and choose the wisdom of those greater then me for guidance.



That is an excellent question! I am happy you are joining into the debate!

First answer me this: Where in the Bible did Christ tell His Apostles to abandon circumcision?

Never mind my friend. I shall not get in a circular conversation with you. Our time is too short for that, eh? There are many past threads dealing with circumcision. Our confidence is in the Lord, and that He will lead us into truth. Hold closely to Him, TER, and you will know that great promise of Romans 8:28.

 

[Eagles' Wings]

Amen!

Amen to your Amen. Praise God from whom all blessings flow.

 

[Terry1]

The Greek word /ekklesia/ used there is more likely to be rendered 'congregation' than it is 'church,' if the Greek were pointing to "The Church" (as in my post #20) they are more likely to have used /kyriakos/.

I usually, in polite conversation, refer to One Church, with a Catholic congregation, an Orthodox Congregation, a Baptist Congregation, etc.

Excellent! This is the closest thing to what I believe is correct that I've seen in a long time. Absolutely Gunny--the Holy Spirit dwells in those no matter what denomination they are as He sees fit. Only God knows the heart of individuals.

 

[Ronin Truth]

Matthew 23:9King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Seems pretty clear. Did I miss some nuance?