Where did Ayn Rand disagree with "libertarians" ??

Being against Corporate charter is not a left wing position. Corporations have many State-granted immunities, privileges, and advantages where none would exist without the State. Corporations are relatively new and are ideas born out of the Monarchy and late 19th Century Statist policy proposals.

Trusts, partnerships, and other forms of associations are all perfectly acceptable within the NAP and Property Right paradigm (self-proprietorship). This is an area where a lot of libertarians get it right, and a lot get it wrong. Perhaps those for Corporations here should read the history and legalese that created these abominations. They are artificial State-constructs, not market constructs.
 
Spot-on analysis.

I think, as an objectivist myself, that Rand got this horribly wrong, and her position against libertarianism was inconsistent with the rest of her philosophy. That's an argument to be had between objectivists, I suppose.

Consider, for instance, that she wrote in support of Barry Goldwater, who was no objectivist! Yet she had to demonize John Hospers? She praised Ludwig von Mises, but she despised Murray Rothbard (the two of them had a volatile history). The inconsistency is bothersome, but then again all humans have faults.

I suppose she wasn't being very objective in that respect.
 
I've read much Rand's work and she's very smart. I'm not an objectivist but I'm closer to an objectivist than an AnCap.
 
More condescending remarks I see.



Voluntary associations that would not exist without Government Charters and licensing...... A legal contract between shareholders without the Government involvement would be a Trust. There you go making assumptions again. This is the problem with most modern Libertarians, they ignore everything Mises said. Even Jefferson was against Corporations as they exist.



So Corporations do not Lobby the Government for preferential treatment with regards to powers of the State?

You are confusing what corporations are with what some corporations do. Also, you would have a point if you mentioned the words "limited liability".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability#Criticisms

Do this and you might even get someone to agree with you.


Edit: See and understand "Austrian" above. That said it is an open question how different a non-sanctioned corporation would be.

It should be clear from previous discussion, however, that corporations are not at all monopolistic privileges; they are free associations of individuals pooling their capital. On the purely free market, such individuals would simply announce to their creditors that their liability is limited to the capital specifically invested in the corporation, and that beyond this their personal funds are not liable for debts, as they would be under a partnership arrangement. It then rests with the sellers and lenders to this corporation to decide whether or not they will transact business with it. If they do, then they proceed at their own risk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability#Criticisms
 
Last edited:
In the end she would most likely not have voted for RP because of her strong support of israel.
 
How is supporting libertarianism plagarism ? Libertarianism is just modern classic liberalism which exsisted long before Rand's time.
 
It think it should be kept in mind that libertarianism is a political philosophy. Objectivism is a philosophy that deals with politics, metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, and aesthetics. Ayn Rand could also be extremely intolerant. In many instances she refused to deal with those who weren't Objectivists.
 
In the end she would most likely not have voted for RP because of her strong support of israel.

By the contrary. She might have voted for Ron Paul because he`s supporter of Israel. He wants to give them back their freedom to act as sovereign nation.

Rand also hated handouts. So put lack of freedom and state handouts together and ask yourself if Ayn Rand would have supported that.

If you think she`d have supported it, you obviously didn`t read her books.
 
By the contrary. She might have voted for Ron Paul because he`s supporter of Israel. He wants to give them back their freedom to act as sovereign nation.

Rand also hated handouts. So put lack of freedom and state handouts together and ask yourself if Ayn Rand would have supported that.

If you think she`d have supported it, you obviously didn`t read her books.
Who's side we should be on...
 
It wasn't just libertarians, Rand tended to dislike everyone. She would excommunicate any of her friends and associates for the smallest deviation from her own beliefs

I excommunicate people all the time, sometimes whole businesses if my fast food order gets screwed up. The other day, this dog barked at me. So I excommunicated it and now what is it going to bark about?
 
More condescending remarks I see.

Voluntary associations that would not exist without Government Charters and licensing...... A legal contract between shareholders without the Government involvement would be a Trust. There you go making assumptions again. This is the problem with most modern Libertarians, they ignore everything Mises said. Even Jefferson was against Corporations as they exist.

They argued against cronyism, mercantilism, corporatism, whatever you want to call it - not against the idea of corporations themselves. The State should not have the power to play favorites in the economy.

The single most distinguishing characteristic of a corporation is limited liability. When a corporation fails, shareholders lose their investments, but they are not liable to pay back the banks for any debts the corporation took on. Banks agree to lend money to corporations with this understanding, and it is a calculated risk that they take. Limited liability encourages investment, and discourages debt. This is a double benefit!

Corporations also typically set up an organizational structure quite unlike a trust. They're a distinct sort of entity.

So Corporations do not Lobby the Government for preferential treatment with regards to powers of the State? Did you simply close your eye's when GE was let off on it's tax fouls last year? Corporations do not Grovel, if that were true the President would not have massive donations from the financial sector to back his bid for re-election. Romney would not be also garnering the same backing. In reality it's the other way around, the Individuals that operate the State beg for donations for re-election with the promise of preferential treatment.

The corporations created the legal framework that they are working in, why do you think they donate to candidates?

You didn't even read what I wrote. I said corporations are amoral, and will use government to their advantage when they can. But without a willing government, corporations cannot use force.

That's called grovelling. Pat my back, I'll pat yours, except only one party actually has *power*. That's the government, who has guns and tanks and the mob. Governments don't need corporations and governments can destroy the corporations.

There are no moral arguments here, it's purely Ethical. Morality is a flawed concept based upon Individual ideas of good or evil. Individual morality is flawed in that it can not be applied to everyone, so the argument you are making as a pseudo Libertarian would not apply to everyone if based on morality.

Ethics is the study of morality, so you're spouting gibberish again. Good and evil are not 'flawed concepts.' If you know your values, you can determine rationally and objectively whether or not something is going to be good or evil. Politics is directly derived from ethics in philosophy. If you're an ethical nihilist and you don't believe in good or evil, that drives your politics just as much as someone who's an absolutist.

Corporations would take over the role, if they were still standing after such a collapse. As it stands now the Wars are started and fought at the behest of the Corporations. Unless you really think the Federal Government truly had a motive to invade Iraq. Oddly enough the only people that made out on that deal were the Corporations that struck it big on no bid contracts. Go figure, it was also the same Corporations that donated and put Bush into office.

It's silly for anti-Statists to support an organization that operates in the same manner as the States they so despise. I would prefer no Government, rather some unrealistic utopia that would never happen.

Like I said, corporations will use the gun of the government if it is available to be used. Their activities will reflect the legal and moral framework of the state. The state will use them when it suits their purpose, and crush them when that suits their purpose. I only wish more CEO's understood the double-edged nature of government.

I'm not arguing for a utopia. I'm pointing out the simple logic of clearly delineating the role of government to one of a passive protector of property rights.
 
Being against Corporate charter is not a left wing position. Corporations have many State-granted immunities, privileges, and advantages where none would exist without the State. Corporations are relatively new and are ideas born out of the Monarchy and late 19th Century Statist policy proposals.

Trusts, partnerships, and other forms of associations are all perfectly acceptable within the NAP and Property Right paradigm (self-proprietorship). This is an area where a lot of libertarians get it right, and a lot get it wrong. Perhaps those for Corporations here should read the history and legalese that created these abominations. They are artificial State-constructs, not market constructs.

I will research this more, but I have to say I don't see any problem with any voluntary association of individuals and contractual agreements. I'm unaware of any violation of the NAP within the concept of a corporation.
 
I've gotten the sense that Rand thought all charity was immoral - not just state handouts but private individuals giving what they have to those in need.

Can someone more knowledgeable on Rand's positions either verify or dispute this? Its just what I've gotten from listening to her supporters criticise Bill Gates and others from spending their wealth on charity.

If she does have this viewpoint it's one I detest, and one I hope most libertarians, in fact all people, reject
 
I've gotten the sense that Rand thought all charity was immoral - not just state handouts but private individuals giving what they have to those in need.

Can someone more knowledgeable on Rand's positions either verify or dispute this? Its just what I've gotten from listening to her supporters criticise Bill Gates and others from spending their wealth on charity.

If she does have this viewpoint it's one I detest, and one I hope most libertarians, in fact all people, reject
You have to read her books. Please don't discredit her views before you have read them.
And your sense is correct. Watch this interview to learn more, but I'd suggest reading the fountainhead for more info.
 
More condescending remarks I see.



Voluntary associations that would not exist without Government Charters and licensing...... A legal contract between shareholders without the Government involvement would be a Trust. There you go making assumptions again. This is the problem with most modern Libertarians, they ignore everything Mises said. Even Jefferson was against Corporations as they exist.



So Corporations do not Lobby the Government for preferential treatment with regards to powers of the State? Did you simply close your eye's when GE was let off on it's tax fouls last year? Corporations do not Grovel, if that were true the President would not have massive donations from the financial sector to back his bid for re-election. Romney would not be also garnering the same backing. In reality it's the other way around, the Individuals that operate the State beg for donations for re-election with the promise of preferential treatment.

The corporations created the legal framework that they are working in, why do you think they donate to candidates?

There are no moral arguments here, it's purely Ethical. Morality is a flawed concept based upon Individual ideas of good or evil. Individual morality is flawed in that it can not be applied to everyone, so the argument you are making as a pseudo Libertarian would not apply to everyone if based on morality.




Corporations would take over the role, if they were still standing after such a collapse. As it stands now the Wars are started and fought at the behest of the Corporations. Unless you really think the Federal Government truly had a motive to invade Iraq. Oddly enough the only people that made out on that deal were the Corporations that struck it big on no bid contracts. Go figure, it was also the same Corporations that donated and put Bush into office.

It's silly for anti-Statists to support an organization that operates in the same manner as the States they so despise. I would prefer no Government, rather some unrealistic utopia that would never happen.

Finally, someone who gets it!

However, I think you give too much credit to the corporations themselves. The elites that control the money supply and the policy are more than just people who got rich from business. The framework for this nation and the people who currently control its policy have been around for a long time through generations. This isn't something all the corporations got together to decide yesterday, and they are not the only ones who had a strong hand getting people elected.

What you said about morality was spot on, though!
 
It's not condescending if it's true. Take the left-wing tirade-of-the-year somewhere else.



We don't lose the right to petition the government as a result of our associations, even though you apparently think we should.



Assuming you mean rolls, GE pays taxes every year. Again, you're spewing socialist rhetoric, and in fact, most of us think that corporations should pay no taxes anyway.

The government shouldn't have the right to give our money away like it does, but because they do, it's ridiculous to blame the people who ask for it. They're not the problem.

I agree that we shouldn't blame people who ask for it. I didn't see where the poster you replied to said that, though. I also don't see why you call it "socialist rhetoric." It's not socialist, it's just anti-corporatist. What he's saying is that many of the corporations that exist today wouldn't be nearly as big as they are now without the help of government. That is 100% true.
 
Ethics is the study of morality, so you're spouting gibberish again. Good and evil are not 'flawed concepts.' If you know your values, you can determine rationally and objectively whether or not something is going to be good or evil. Politics is directly derived from ethics in philosophy. If you're an ethical nihilist and you don't believe in good or evil, that drives your politics just as much as someone who's an absolutist.

Morality cannot be determined as truth from an individual standpoint. You are saying everyone should know what morality is and what right and wrong is, but you are forgetting that there is no universal standard for this unless it comes from God. What's moral to one person might be amoral to another if they are simply left to determine morality for thesmelves. Therefore, it is fundamentally flawed to say that every individual should follow a moral framework, when you don't even know what moral framework they believe in. What you are assuming is that your idea of morality is automatically the best understanding of good and evil because your understanding is "normal" and has a set of principles that you believe are right. Many others may have a moral framework that does not include those principles. There is no way to tell which one is objectively right unless there is an absolute authority that makes one framework binding on everyone. Individual understanding can never do this. This is one of the things wrong with Rand's philosophy as well as your understanding of it.
 
You have to read her books. Please don't discredit her views before you have read them.
And your sense is correct. Watch this interview to learn more, but I'd suggest reading the fountainhead for more info.


One day I'll give Fountainhead a shot. I've read Anthem and consider it one of the greatest literary works I've ever found, even if it is short. I know she is a great writer and ultimately a great thinker, but I do think she is dead wrong on charity.
 
Yeah well didn't Ayn Rand end up collecting social security? I'll bet there's a good excuse for that right?

There's a group ( maybe it should be written in the past tense) who refused to "collect" social security when they hit that age. Wasn't Dr Sennholz in that group? ( how many here even know who that is without "searching the internet"? )
 
Last edited:
Gibberish.

Corporations are voluntary associations of individuals. They are legal contracts between share holders delineating the ownership of property. There is nothing wrong with corporations - they happen to be extremely effective tools of industry. Why would anyone be anti-corporation, unless they are also anti-property, anti-trade, and pro-force?

Corporations are not states. They are not replacements for states. They do not use force. If a corporation wishes to engage in force, it has to grovel at the heels of the State, which has a monopoly on force. Corporations are amoral. They exist to make profit for the shareholders. Their activities will reflect the legal and moral framework of the State within which they exist. If they can use government, they will.

But what if the government had no power to lay taxes, to wage wars, or to violate the rights of others? What if corporations could garner no special privledges from government? What if government existed to enforce contracts, protect property rights, and never played favorites?

This. A lot of the people here sound like Marxists in their criticism of corporations.
 
Back
Top