When are we going to get serious?

[Drivingrain]

Electoral success, local or national....is highly unlikely. The co-opting of the Tea Party from its Santelli-Ron Paul roots into some kind of social-conservative-group was engineered equally and with cooperation by Republicans and Democrats for their mutual benefit and it is the only example we should ever need to know that progress from electoral victories has little chance of success.

There are at least two ways to get serious w/o electoral victory:
(1) Push on issues, not candidates. And, very importantly, those issues need to be framed as Constitutional amendments. Pick an issue to start with; commerce clause clarification, declaration of war clarification, etc. Obviously, not having an electoral strategy will make it more difficult to get the votes needed for this to happen, but if we fixate on one or two items and drive public support...then it may be successful.
(2) Begin a serious discussion about secession and start movements in selected States.

To me these seem like the only paths to real change in our lifetimes. Maybe Im missing something? Is there a reason why an electoral strategy is better than these strategies?

 

[RPRevolution]

Yes, we were just discussing a similar strategy on my introduction thread. The thing I am trying to figure out right now is how to organize those issues we are focusing on and make the push for them on a HUGE scale, versus random small groups firing in the dark (which also has its place, but for this specific task I believe organization and large scale promotion is key).

 

[torchbearer]

I'm working on a project in louisiana that will make it easy for rand to take this state.

 

[RPRevolution]

I'm working on a project in louisiana that will make it easy for rand to take this state.

Care to elaborate or still working on the details? If it is something that can be multiplied on a country wide or more than one state level I'd love to hear more about it (or even if it can't I'm still curious haha).

 

[CPUd]

Electoral success, local or national....is highly unlikely. The co-opting of the Tea Party from its Santelli-Ron Paul roots into some kind of social-conservative-group was engineered equally and with cooperation by Republicans and Democrats for their mutual benefit and it is the only example we should ever need to know that progress from electoral victories has little chance of success.

There are at least two ways to get serious w/o electoral victory:
(1) Push on issues, not candidates. And, very importantly, those issues need to be framed as Constitutional amendments. Pick an issue to start with; commerce clause clarification, declaration of war clarification, etc. Obviously, not having an electoral strategy will make it more difficult to get the votes needed for this to happen, but if we fixate on one or two items and drive public support...then it may be successful.
(2) Begin a serious discussion about secession and start movements in selected States.

To me these seem like the only paths to real change in our lifetimes. Maybe Im missing something? Is there a reason why an electoral strategy is better than these strategies?

We have those. Here's one that will be back in full swing when the new Senate goes back in to session:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?384502-Keep-calling-Harry-Reid

 

[Drivingrain]

I'm working on a project in louisiana that will make it easy for rand to take this state.

The Rand strategy is an electoral strategy and of course it has significant merit. But I think its flaw is a fatal one. He will not do better in the primaries than Ron did in '12 because Republicans views on foreign policy are not moving at all and won't move anytime soon.

Repubs agree with us on the 10th amend and can also be convinced on the Declaration of War. Dems would be against 10th amendment clarifications , but could be convinced on Declaration of War. Why not jam that issue into the hearts of all sides and get some momentum behind a Constitutional Amendment.

It's realistic it could happen, it could happen fast and it would have a real impact.

 

[torchbearer]

Care to elaborate or still working on the details? If it is something that can be multiplied on a country wide or more than one state level I'd love to hear more about it (or even if it can't I'm still curious haha).

It is specific to louisiana, since our system is different.
but if your goal is to take over the governing bodies of your state gop.. then, you need to learn your political system and rules and find a way to obtain your goal.

 

[Drivingrain]

We have those. Here's one that will be back in full swing when the new Senate goes back in to session:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?384502-Keep-calling-Harry-Reid

Audit the Fed. Right. Of course we all like that, but it's flaws are:
(1) it's a step strategy. The thinking is that if you audit--->public support/outrage---->repeal the Act. It's a very long road.
(2) it's more helpful for building general awareness than having a real impact
(3) it's obscure. We need something that you could explain to Joe-Schmo while on a short elevator ride (i.e. a clean "elevator pitch")

 

[Drivingrain]

Yes, we were just discussing a similar strategy on my introduction thread. The thing I am trying to figure out right now is how to organize those issues we are focusing on and make the push for them on a HUGE scale, versus random small groups firing in the dark (which also has its place, but for this specific task I believe organization and large scale promotion is key).

Grass roots organizing is tough. Ultimately, it takes our movement's grassroots and grass-tops to get things like this moving. Right now our grastops are primarily press figures such as Napalitano/Gilepsie/Schiff/Stossel/Ron Paul/etc working with our few elected officials who do the work in the state-houses and in Congress. If the Judge would talk about a Declaration of War amendment on Fox instead of the crap he does now....then we could actually get somewhere on a big issue.

 

[eleganz]

I'm working on a project in louisiana that will make it easy for rand to take this state.

you can't just say that and leave us...gotta share your thoughts man! I'd love to hear ideas.

 

[torchbearer]

you can't just say that and leave us...gotta share your thoughts man! I'd love to hear ideas.

any hints you get come from post #7.
if you know people in louisiana, send them my way.

 

[nasaal]

Takes the willingness to do the work. Most of us talk a bit game, but most of those(myself included) don't really want to do the work at the end of the day. If we want to build from the bottom up, we have to get people elected strategically throughout key states. We need to agree on what our goals really are and work solely toward them. If we are all over the place then we won't achieve anything. So clarification of goals, and organizing action to achieve them must come first.

 

[RonPaulMall]

The Rand strategy is an electoral strategy and of course it has significant merit. But I think its flaw is a fatal one. He will not do better in the primaries than Ron did in '12 because Republicans views on foreign policy are not moving at all and won't move anytime soon.

Disagree. It is all about how you sell it. Ron sells non-interventionism from a moral, almost hippie like perspective. Ron talks about the immorality of bombing Iranians because Ron Paul, in his heart, genuinely believes Iranian lives are just as worthy of respect as American lives and he refuses to back down on that. Rand might believe the same thing in his heart, but in terms of how he presents stuff, he does it in a much more jingoistic way that doesn't turn off the GOP base. Think about it. Ron's FP is no different in substance than Pat Buchanan's, right? But Paul is viewed as "weak" and "coddling our enemies". Buchanan on the other hand, is viewed as an "extreme right wing Nazi". Why? Presentation. Buchanan seems tough, talks tough, and always frames things in terms of what's best for America. America First, essentially. As long as Rand packages his father's believes in Buchanan-like rhetoric, the GOP will lap it up.

 

[VRod]

I've been more of a political reader who has written a few letters to my congressmen. This thread reminds me that I should be more active in grass roots efforts.

Would it be better to try to affect change in the GOP, or try to build up the Libertarian Party?

 

[deadfish]

Electoral success, local or national....is highly unlikely. The co-opting of the Tea Party from its Santelli-Ron Paul roots into some kind of social-conservative-group was engineered equally and with cooperation by Republicans and Democrats for their mutual benefit and it is the only example we should ever need to know that progress from electoral victories has little chance of success.

People keep saying the Tea Party was co-opted. In my experience, so-cons just show up to TP meetings in much greater numbers than liberty-minded folks. Ron Paul supporters talk tough in cyperspace but just don't show up in meatspace when it matters.

 

[sailingaway]

Disagree. It is all about how you sell it. Ron sells non-interventionism from a moral, almost hippie like perspective. Ron talks about the immorality of bombing Iranians because Ron Paul, in his heart, genuinely believes Iranian lives are just as worthy of respect as American lives and he refuses to back down on that. Rand might believe the same thing in his heart, but in terms of how he presents stuff, he does it in a much more jingoistic way that doesn't turn off the GOP base. Think about it. Ron's FP is no different in substance than Pat Buchanan's, right? But Paul is viewed as "weak" and "coddling our enemies". Buchanan on the other hand, is viewed as an "extreme right wing Nazi". Why? Presentation. Buchanan seems tough, talks tough, and always frames things in terms of what's best for America. America First, essentially. As long as Rand packages his father's believes in Buchanan-like rhetoric, the GOP will lap it up.

but it does turn independents and cross over voters off, as well as more liberal Republicans. It is sort of like the newsletters some volunteer thought would help Ron's popularity with cultural conservatives. These statements will come back.

I hope they are taking that into consideration. All the country isn't the south.

 

[sailingaway]

I've been more of a political reader who has written a few letters to my congressmen. This thread reminds me that I should be more active in grass roots efforts.

Would it be better to try to affect change in the GOP, or try to build up the Libertarian Party?

That is quite a debate. I think the GOP at the moment but ready to turn on a dime. I think we need strings on all bows, however. These issues are American issues.

You will find a lot of different opinions on that subject, however.

Welcome to the forums!

 

[Victor Grey]

but it does turn independents and cross over voters off, as well as more liberal Republicans. It is sort of like the newsletters some volunteer thought would help Ron's popularity with cultural conservatives. These statements will come back.

I hope they are taking that into consideration. All the country isn't the south.

We need the GOP base to actually win primary elections. It's the whole reason people focus on the GOP takeover.

Votes. Mass numbers of general election votes.

That's how you win. It is what it is.

Changing the rhetoric slightly or simply "bullshitting" the social conservatives and defense neoconservatives is how it's done.
You don't even have to necessarily lie. Just say things from another angle. That's what those people live for.

Some people seem to care about the pointless box of cardboard rhetoric political change comes in, exactly the same, as any democrat or republican party zombie does.

 

[Bastiat's The Law]

but it does turn independents and cross over voters off, as well as more liberal Republicans. It is sort of like the newsletters some volunteer thought would help Ron's popularity with cultural conservatives. These statements will come back.

I hope they are taking that into consideration. All the country isn't the south.

How exactly does this turn off independents and others? If Ron spoke like this he would've been the nominee and won the election.

 

[RPRevolution]

Takes the willingness to do the work. Most of us talk a bit game, but most of those(myself included) don't really want to do the work at the end of the day. If we want to build from the bottom up, we have to get people elected strategically throughout key states. We need to agree on what our goals really are and work solely toward them. If we are all over the place then we won't achieve anything. So clarification of goals, and organizing action to achieve them must come first.

Yup I agree, I haven't really been doing the work necessary either, that's why i joined today to hopefully change that. What state are you working within?