What would Rand Say about Feds Making School Accomodate TransGender or No Funds?

[jmdrake]

Find me a documented case of a trans woman assaulting another woman in a locker room or bathroom.

That's easy enough.

http://www.charismanews.com/us/4134...sing-girls-in-the-bathroom-gets-no-punishment
http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/transgender-boy-invades-girls-bathroom/

Then consider the astronomically high rates of violence against trans women perpetrated by (mostly) cis males, and ask yourself if you can conceivably think of a reason why a trans woman would be afraid to use male locker rooms, bathrooms, etc.

Let's see. Ever heard of "crime of opportunity?" Most schools don't let boys who think they are girls use the girls bathroom. So obviously there will be very few cases of that. And most cases of men assaulting transgendered (men? women?) have occurred because the men thought they were taking home a woman and then found out differently. I'm not saying that's right. I'm just saying that's what happens. Besides, if he really is a she than why not change school districts where nobody already knows her as him?

 

[Jamesiv1]

I generally agree with Rothbardian Girl. I wonder if my opinion would change if I had a teenage girl? It might? I don't know. However, I don't think passively catching a glimpse of a flaccid penis is really going to hurt anyone.

It's not the transgender guy's flaccid penis we should be concerned about.

It's the fully erect penis of the 16-year old guy wanting to impress his friends by breaking the rules. And 'sexting' it. Tube or it didn't happen, right?

I have a 12-year old daughter. I will pitch a fit if this goes down at her school.

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

I'm not sure what this school has, but it's not likely that they would actually undress inside a shower curtain and then put their clothes back on inside the shower curtain. They would perhaps shower inside a shower curtain but would still have to get undressed out in the open in front of everyone.

On the contrary, I can definitely see it as being likely, especially given the fact that many transgender people suffer from dysphoria, which naturally would increase their desire to keep their bodies private. Again, I never saw anyone's lower half in public. There were spaces outside the shower to hang/place underwear; you'd place it there before showering, come back out wrapped in a towel, grab the undies and put them on in the privacy of the shower curtain. High school showers are not about maximum dryness/comfort post-shower. You'd have five minutes at most to do all this stuff. In larger high schools, typically the showers don't tend to get used, at least not all the time.

I can't find any data, but I'd be highly willing to bet completely open communal showers are slowly being phased out, especially for females.

That's easy enough.

http://www.charismanews.com/us/4134...sing-girls-in-the-bathroom-gets-no-punishment
http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/transgender-boy-invades-girls-bathroom/

I asked for a documented case of assault; instead, I got claims of harassment. Since these articles don't even bother to gender properly (a transgender woman would be the one using the girls' bathroom), I have to seriously doubt their objectivity. Of course people who believe transgender women aren't women are going to claim that their simply being in the same room as them constitutes "harassment." From your second link: "First of all, it's our position that a teenage boy's presence into (sic) the bathroom for teenage girls is inherently harassing."

No, it generally doesn't work like that. If that were true, then I could sue my male bosses at work for harassment simply by being in the same room as me. Also, I did some research on the story (http://www.transadvocate.com/anti-g...trans-school-harassment-is-fake_n_10351.htm):

I did some fact checking and learned from the school superintendent that their investigation found that there was no attack or harassment. Furthermore, it turns out that apparently all of this was caused by one parent who felt that trans people should be segregated away from the cisgender population:

Since this came to light media outlets have deleted PJI’s story and apologized to the trans student.

Today, PJI issued a statement to the TransAdvocate via their apparent mouthpiece, a TERF activist. While the statement still offered no evidence to support the claim that this trans kid is a predator, they finally revealed the nature of the supposed “harassment” endured by the cisgender school kids.

In a statement delivered to the TransAdvocate by attorney Cathy Brennan, the PJI claims that a trans person in the restroom is “inherently intimidating and harassing.” Brennan, vocal critic of trans equality measures, became somewhat infamous after she outed a trans teen to his parents and school, and recently attempted to intervene in the medical care of a transgender person.

After days of sidestepping any explicit statements about the exact nature of the supposed “harassment,” PJI now asserts that the mere presence of a trans person constitutes harassment and intimidation to cisgender people.

The PJI requested that journalists cease pulling their stories, suggesting that media outlets are doing so simply because LGBT activists are bullying them into “silence.”

Let's see. Ever heard of "crime of opportunity?" Most schools don't let boys who think they are girls use the girls bathroom. So obviously there will be very few cases of that. And most cases of men assaulting transgendered (men? women?) have occurred because the men thought they were taking home a woman and then found out differently. I'm not saying that's right. I'm just saying that's what happens. Besides, if he really is a she than why not change school districts where nobody already knows her as him?

What? The problem is that a trans woman who uses the men's bathroom is likely to be assaulted, not the women's bathroom. And if you weren't at least trying to provide a rationale for violence, then why even bring that up? If the UPS guy accidentally delivers me the wrong package from Amazon, it would be totally understandable why I would beat him up. Right?

As for your last sentence... "if you don't like America, then just move out!"

 

[dannno]

I can't find any data, but I'd be highly willing to bet completely open communal showers are slowly being phased out, especially for females.

You don't find Danke to be credible?

 

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Boy, I wish I was still in high school right now. I would troll the shit out of these ridiculous new policies.

 

[jmdrake]

I don't know how universal this is (I'm guessing it's fairly universal because girls in HS tend to value privacy... it's an awkward time), but in my high school's locker room, each shower had its own curtain and each toilet had its own stall. I had gym for four years, including an aquatics unit, and never once saw anyone strip down or even inadvertently expose an area that is usually covered.

I worked for the coach at my academy (private high school) and I had to clean the boys and girls lockers. The girls had privacy. The boys had communal showers. With all of the concern in the Christian world about homosexuality, that never made any freaking sense to me. This was a boarding academy and the dorm showers were the same. Again, no freaking sense.

So now, consider taking your "logic" to its natural conclusion. Should a girl who thinks she's a boy use the boys locker room? What do you think is going to happen to a girl who thinks she's a boy if she's in a communal shower with a bunch of boys? I mean if we're going to break down all of these "gender barriers" and have people uses the facilities that best fits who they supposedly are then she (he) should be required to use the boys facilities right?

Here's a crazy idea. Delay sex reassignment treatment until you finish high school. It's not going to kill you. Obviously even some old fart like Bruce Jenner can be "reassigned." Seriously, there is enough social pressure in high school that there isn't a good reason to add to it by changing genders. Or move to another school where nobody, including the teachers, is going to know you are really a he or a she. Seriously this can be pulled off. The federal government now bans schools from requiring birth certificates for registration because that's somehow "unfair" to undocumented immigrants. (See: http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20140520/news/140529963/) So....move somewhere else, register him as a her, make sure that he does everything to make sure nobody ever finds out, problem solved.

 

[jmdrake]

I can't find any data, but I'd be highly willing to bet completely open communal showers are slowly being phased out, especially for females.

Females have never had to deal with communal showers. That's why you have no experience with them but most guys responding to you have. It's a part of your "female privilege." I hope they do phase them out for males. Perhaps one positive about the new gay awareness in America is that parents of heterosexual boys will demand they be phased out.

Anyway, I will do better than give you "data." Here's a picture. Most guys (at least my age) are quite familiar with this.

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

I worked for the coach at my academy (private high school) and I had to clean the boys and girls lockers. The girls had privacy. The boys had communal showers. With all of the concern in the Christian world about homosexuality, that never made any freaking sense to me. This was a boarding academy and the dorm showers were the same. Again, no freaking sense.

So now, consider taking your "logic" to its natural conclusion. Should a girl who thinks she's a boy use the boys locker room? What do you think is going to happen to a girl who thinks she's a boy if she's in a communal shower with a bunch of boys? I mean if we're going to break down all of these "gender barriers" and have people uses the facilities that best fits who they supposedly are then she (he) should be required to use the boys facilities right?

The first paragraph of this reply would be better directed toward Brett85 and every other person trying to argue that women's locker rooms don't have privacy measures built into them. We are in agreement that most women's locker rooms are designed for privacy. The correct way to proceed in that direction is to also push for privacy in men's locker rooms. I am not sure what the issue is here.

As for the case of trans men having to shower with men, there are safeguards in place. Actual trans people have noted all your concerns and supplied advice to trans men based on those concerns. One second of Googling brought me this link: http://www.ftmguide.org/lockers.html

 

[Brian4Liberty]

General rule: No one should be forced to be naked in front of other people if they don't want to be. Individual stalls should be available. Case closed.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

... where nobody already knows her as him?

And that is part of the solution for transgendered people. A person will be able to go with their preferred gender if they can convincingly "pass" as that gender. They can use their preferred bathroom or locker room when it goes unnoticed by others.

A transgender person who strips completely naked and thus gives away the secret is no longer going unnoticed. Don't ask, don't tell, don't show.

 

[specsaregood]

General rule: No one should be forced to be naked in front of other people if they don't want to be. Individual stalls should be available. Case closed.

seems like that would take a lot more space and cost a lot more to clean/maintain.

 

[jmdrake]

The first paragraph of this reply would be better directed toward Brett85 and every other person trying to argue that women's locker rooms don't have privacy measures built into them. We are in agreement that most women's locker rooms are designed for privacy. The correct way to proceed in that direction is to also push for privacy in men's locker rooms. I am not sure what the issue is here.

Interesting that you've ignored the evidence I provided that you requested of boys who think they are girls harassing girls in the girls locker room.

As for the case of trans men having to shower with men, there are safeguards in place. Actual trans people have noted all your concerns and supplied advice to trans men based on those concerns. One second of Googling brought me this link: http://www.ftmguide.org/lockers.html

Anything but the simple best advice of stick to using the girls facilities as long as you have a vagina. Really, why would you want a girl to put herself in danger like that based on some internet "advice" that isn't going to be 100%? The simple truth is, this isn't about "protecting" transgender people from the "evil heterosexual homophobes" that might beat them up. If it were then you and everyone else would want to keep "trans men" as far away from male facilities as possible. It's about pushing an agenda to blur gender lines. These poor kids are just mixed up pawns in a bigger game. You might have bought the crazy kool-aid to believe you are advocating for their good, but those pushing this at the federal level know exactly what they are doing.

Edit: Rothbardian Girl I don't think you actually read your own link! It's all about how a "trans man" who's in transition can hide the fact that she is really a she. Well...if that's the case...the freaking school doesn't need a policy letting her use the men's room! Seriously, parents of such a mixed up kid should take him / her to a different school district where nobody knows the birth gender. Then use all of the "How to hide what you biologically are" tricks to...well...hide what you biologically are. Teachers don't have to know. Principals don't have to know. And most of all other students don't have to know. But, if you are filing a complaint demanding your "right" to use the other locker room then everybody knows!

 

[Brian4Liberty]

seems like that would take a lot more space and cost a lot more to clean/maintain.

Depends. Many (most modern) gyms have individual shower stalls (exclusively or available) already, and they all have individual toilet stalls.

Some small establishments are now getting away with one unisex bathroom instead of a Men's and Women's. Saves them space and cleaning.

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

Interesting that you've ignored the evidence I provided that you requested of boys who think they are girls harassing girls in the girls locker room.



Anything but the simple best advice of stick to using the girls facilities as long as you have a vagina. Really, why would you want a girl to put herself in danger like that based on some internet "advice" that isn't going to be 100%? The simple truth is, this isn't about "protecting" transgender people from the "evil heterosexual homophobes" that might beat them up. If it were then you and everyone else would want to keep "trans men" as far away from male facilities as possible. It's about pushing an agenda to blur gender lines. These poor kids are just mixed up pawns in a bigger game. You might have bought the crazy kool-aid to believe you are advocating for their good, but those pushing this at the federal level know exactly what they are doing.

Edit: Rothbardian Girl I don't think you actually read your own link! It's all about how a "trans man" who's in transition can hide the fact that she is really a she. Well...if that's the case...the freaking school doesn't need a policy letting her use the men's room! Seriously, parents of such a mixed up kid should take him / her to a different school district where nobody knows the birth gender. Then use all of the "How to hide what you biologically are" tricks to...well...hide what you biologically are. Teachers don't have to know. Principals don't have to know. And most of all other students don't have to know. But, if you are filing a complaint demanding your "right" to use the other locker room then everybody knows!

I did not ignore your so-called evidence. See post #103:. In any case, I asked for a documented case of assault, not claims of harassment made by transphobic students.

No woman is going to want to see a bearded trans man in a woman's bathroom - and if they're not at that stage of transition yet, then you'll have homophobic women complaining about someone who appears to be a butch lesbian in the bathroom. So ya just can't win with people's irrational prejudices, I guess. Moving schools is a bit like "Move to [insert other country here] if you don't like America!" logic, so you'll excuse me if I don't take it that seriously.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Yes, this.

Why are abortions and pumping yourself full of artificial hormones to turn yourself into some modern day Frankenstein horror, the only two things you can do prior to reaching 18?

I worked for the coach at my academy (private high school) and I had to clean the boys and girls lockers. The girls had privacy. The boys had communal showers. With all of the concern in the Christian world about homosexuality, that never made any freaking sense to me. This was a boarding academy and the dorm showers were the same. Again, no freaking sense.

So now, consider taking your "logic" to its natural conclusion. Should a girl who thinks she's a boy use the boys locker room? What do you think is going to happen to a girl who thinks she's a boy if she's in a communal shower with a bunch of boys? I mean if we're going to break down all of these "gender barriers" and have people uses the facilities that best fits who they supposedly are then she (he) should be required to use the boys facilities right?

Here's a crazy idea. Delay sex reassignment treatment until you finish high school. It's not going to kill you. Obviously even some old fart like Bruce Jenner can be "reassigned." Seriously, there is enough social pressure in high school that there isn't a good reason to add to it by changing genders. Or move to another school where nobody, including the teachers, is going to know you are really a he or a she. Seriously this can be pulled off. The federal government now bans schools from requiring birth certificates for registration because that's somehow "unfair" to undocumented immigrants. (See: http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20140520/news/140529963/) So....move somewhere else, register him as a her, make sure that he does everything to make sure nobody ever finds out, problem solved.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Yes, this.

Why are abortions and pumping yourself full of artificial hormones to turn yourself into some modern day Frankenstein horror, the only two things you can do prior to reaching 18?

Well, our ignorant parents and a corrupt medical profession found it perfectly acceptable to perform plastic surgery on the genitals of nearly every infant boy for several generations...the slippery slope leads here.

 

[JK/SEA]

I think you mean males with boobs.

nope...chicks with dicks...and a vagina...and boobs...look it up.

 

[PierzStyx]

Your sex organs do not determine your gender identity.

Of course not. Your gender, male or female, is literally encoded in your DNA. So unless "transgender" people can recode their very genetic makeup, the whole thing is a mass delusion fed by massive bodily harm and hormone doping.

 

[Dr. Dog]

Of course not. Your gender, male or female, is literally encoded in your DNA. So unless "transgender" people can recode their very genetic makeup, the whole thing is a mass delusion fed by massive bodily harm and hormone doping.

Exactly. Ever single cell in Bruce Jenner's body (except his sperm cells, assuming he hasn't mutilated his genitals yet) is, has been, and will always be male.

 

[JK/SEA]

Exactly. Ever single cell in Bruce Jenner's body (except his sperm cells, assuming he hasn't mutilated his genitals yet) is, has been, and will always be male.

oh...i think i found who God is...Dr. God...er...dog....lol..