ways to approach talking about Libertarianism to Christians

[Oukvekpwv]

An issue in the elections is the Christian right. Now I am not supposing that this will be a cure all argument.. There are all kinds of christians.. I just would like to give my perspective; which may be a perspective that may be a nice starting point of discussion.

First I'll talk about my favorite go to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_the_two_kingdoms
The two kingdoms theology originating in the reformation

Luther insisted that “liberty of conscience” was one of Jesus Christ’s principles. According to Luther, the civil government’s role is simply to keep outward peace in society. The civil government has no business enforcing spiritual laws. “The laws of worldly government extend no farther than to life and property and what is external upon earth,” Luther insisted. Echoing Luther, writing on religious liberty, Thomas Jefferson stated “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others.” Jefferson may not have had Luther specifically in mind, but was perhaps an heir to the Protestant tradition which gave birth to this sentiment.

as a christian i see it as a general sentiment that Jesus' mission was a spiritual mission.. as Paul as discussed the 'circumcision of the heart'

No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. -Romans 2:29

this is similar to Judas' perception that Christ was supposed to conquer the Roman government; that being his reason for betrayal. In my opinion Christ was lawful to the worldly governments but was apathetic to worldly government and worldly wealth.. Christ's mission was of the spiritual realm..

another one of my favorites is 1 Samuel chapter 8

But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.” - 1 Samuel 8:6-9

this is similar to what Ron Paul says in that our freedom comes from our creator not our government.

im starting to get tired so im sorry if this was written incoherently just throwing some ideas out there and making conversation.. what do you all think?

 

[Sola_Fide]

Excellent post.

Jefferson and all of the founders (not to mention the founding generation themselves) were direct intellectual heirs of Luther's ideas of total liberty of conscience.

 

[TroySmith]

+ 1. Talk about Christianity as VOLUNTARY and SELF RESPONSIBILITY as well. I think a lot of Christians are in many ways libertarian in nature, but either lack understanding of economics and become liberal or are radically pro-Israel and become neo-cons. The first is probably the easiest to remedy, but both can be done.

 

[Dr.3D]

My thought is that libertarianism pretty much goes by the following rule.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

That seems to be the message I keep hearing from Ron Paul. This is especially true with his foreign policy.

 

[AggieforPaul]

Jefferson may not be the best example to cite to a Christian who's a skeptic of liberty. Jefferson crossed out all mentions of miracles in his Bible, and wrote the "wall of separation" of church and state letter.

 

[Oukvekpwv]

jefferson isnt the highlighting concept though.. the meaning of it is how Chrisitans understand the relationship between church and state in how it relates to the teachings of Christ.. which was, i feel, very well articulated in the work of Martin Luther..

 

[Sola_Fide]

Jefferson may not be the best example to cite to a Christian who's a skeptic of liberty. Jefferson crossed out all mentions of miracles in his Bible, and wrote the "wall of separation" of church and state letter.

The wall of seperation was a good thing because it meant that faith would remain voluntary and untouched by government, just like Luther said. You should actually read the letter to the Danbury Baptists sometime. It does not mean anything like what it does today.


Yes, Jefferson and many of the elites were picking up Unitarianism and other rationalistic interpretations of the Bible, so what? The elites are always less spiritual than the people of the country. The elites are always less liberty oriented and less faithful than the people.

The PEOPLE of the early Americas were a Calvinistic people who were directly influenced by the Reformation and all of the ideas of liberty, free markets, nullification, separation of church and state, etc.


I've posted about how important doctrine is in spiritual reformation. It was one doctrine--just one doctrine-- that was the heart of the Reformation: justification by faith alone. By understanding that a man never has righteousness inside himself, but that his righteousness is only imputed to him by Christ's atoning sacrifice, it transformed the medieval world because they would stand on posts or beat themselves bloody trying to look inside themselves for righteousness. Now that men knew righteousness was outside themselves and not within, their energies were put toward productive capitalism, this is what is called the "Protestant work ethic".

Revival won't come to America until we have a revival in doctrine, a revival in the understanding of justification by faith alone. Men do not have righteousness inside themselves, which is why a man does not become good when he enters the halls of government. He remains evil, and must be restrained and nullified.

 

[Oukvekpwv]

I've posted about how important doctrine is in spiritual reformation. It was one doctrine--just one doctrine-- that was the heart of the Reformation: justification by faith alone. By understanding that a man never has righteousness inside himself, but that his righteousness is only imputed to him by Christ's atoning sacrifice, it transformed the medieval world because they would stand on posts or beat themselves bloody trying to look inside themselves for righteousness. Now that men knew righteousness was outside themselves and not within, their energies were put toward productive capitalism, this is what is called the "Protestant work ethic".

Revival won't come to America until we have a revival in doctrine, a revival in the understanding of justification by faith alone. Men do not have righteousness inside themselves, which is why a man does not become good when he enters the halls of government. He remains evil, and must be restrained and nullified.

yea man, i concur.. 100% this is the key to discussing how the Christians should view how to act within government and voting for issues.. and this i thought was a good place to start talking about how to relate this.. if more christians understood this better im sure more christians would be supporting ron paul..

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Galatians 5:14-15
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

 

[Oukvekpwv]

If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

what do you mean? is my post somehow negative? or did i miss what you were trying to say? by all means i dont think negativly of anyone.. this incldes obama.. but it doesnt mean i like the ideologies he follows.. Im just for othodoxy.. knowing what i believe and what i believe it.. and um.. well i repect people for what they believe but i feel that theres a certain way that people misinturpret the teachings of Christ.. I defend my beliefs.. theres nothing wrong with that either.. i believe standing up for something isnt being disrepectful to others necesarily.. not standing of for things is being disrespectful to myself and to my beliefs..

 

[Sola_Fide]

yea man, i concur.. 100% this is the key to discussing how the Christians should view how to act within government and voting for issues.. and this i thought was a good place to start talking about how to relate this.. if more christians understood this better im sure more christians would be supporting ron paul..

Yes, more Protestants need to understand where they have come from and what these doctrines are.

The reason that revival won't come to America (like the kids in the Perry video wanted) is because most Protestant churches don't believe in justification by faith anymore. God has to give our country knowledge again, like he did in Western Europe and America. Knowledge of the truth is a gift of God. It is revealed to men, its not sought out by men.

 

[bunklocoempire]

How I explain it:

Knowing what God has done for me through my God given faith, God CONVINCES me to WANT to live a God pleasing life.

God does not FORCE me to live a God pleasing life.

What I do is done out of LOVE.

(follow up) Jesus did not preach force.


Bunkloco

 

[Sola_Fide]

Galatians 5:14-15
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

You can read the first chapter of Galatians (the book you just cited) to see how important the doctrine of justification by faith was. Paul thought it was important enough to intentionally call out Peter to his face about it. This is the most important thing because without it, there is no gospel at all.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

what do you mean? is my post somehow negative? or did i miss what you were trying to say? by all means i dont think negativly of anyone.. this incldes obama.. but it doesnt mean i like the ideologies he follows.. Im just for othodoxy.. knowing what i believe and what i believe it.. and um.. well i repect people for what they believe but i feel that theres a certain way that people misinturpret the teachings of Christ.. I defend my beliefs.. theres nothing wrong with that either.. i believe standing up for something isnt being disrepectful to others necesarily.. not standing of for things is being disrespectful to myself and to my beliefs..

No. I posted that bible verse for you to show christians. Galatians 5:14-15 is where all law is summed up in God's command "love your neighbor as yourself" and do not judge eachother otherwise your judgements will come back and destroy both of you.Christians are not called to be christians to judge other people and use government as a way of casting stones at their political opponents. Jesus said not to cast stones and that includes enabling government to cast stones. The Jews were not willing to cast stones so they went and to Pilate to cast the stones is a perfect example of that context of being non-judgemental.

 

[Oukvekpwv]

Knowledge of the truth is a gift of God. It is revealed to men, its not sought out by men.

Again totally agree. but thats why i feel called to talk about it.. we are few who still understand it.. it maybe God who does the work but we are few that the words can come from.. spiritual brush fires..

i was just talking in chat about this tonight.. its not us who does good.. no one can do good.. it is by grace alone..

 

[Mr.Magnanimous]

...

 

[CaptainAmerica]

You can read the first chapter of Galatians (the book you just cited) to see how important the doctrine of justification by faith was. Paul thought it was important enough to intentionally call out Peter to his face about it. This is the most important thing because without it, there is no gospel at all.

Yes and its so often that many other people overlook this simple and vital chapter.

 

[Oukvekpwv]

No. I posted that bible verse for you to show christians. Galatians 5:14-15 is where all law is summed up in God's command "love your neighbor as yourself" and do not judge eachother otherwise your judgements will come back and destroy both of you.Christians are not called to be christians to judge other people and use government as a way of casting stones at their political opponents. Jesus said not to cast stones and that includes enabling government to cast stones. The Jews were not willing to cast stones so they went and to Pilate to cast the stones is a perfect example of that context of being non-judgemental.

oh cool yea sorry or being defensive, i get like that sometimes.. its definitly good stuff

 

[Oukvekpwv]

http://libertarianchristians.com/My friend runs this site

thanks for the link ill definitly check it out

 

[CaptainAmerica]

oh cool yea sorry or being defensive, i get like that sometimes.. its definitly good stuff