Was America founded on Judeo-Christian Principles? Of Course it was!

Yes, you can. That is one reason I dislike anyone attempting to “prove” we were founded on some monolithic absolutist principle(s).

What I mean (if you mean your “common people” posts) is to verify whether or not these people were all/mostly Christians in the sense that they understood the term—did they consider themselves “Christians,” go to rituals, etc. I didn’t mean “prove”—at least I don’t remember saying to do this—in the way I’ve been asked to “prove” Enlightenment influence.

What I mean by the Enlightenment role is that it colored the glass through which we viewed all past texts, principles, etc. I don’t mean it absolutely influenced the founding. I mean in the same way that Aquinas saw Christianity through the light of Aristotle or the way Euripides viewed the Greek religion through in a time coming after the philosophy of Socrates.

While I would be very cautious in equating the very wide gap of interpretation of something like the Bible—which is very mystical almost all of the time, and very, very ambiguous especially in the Old Testament, but also in Revelation, and other parts of the New Testament—with the relatively straight-forward propositions of many of the Enlightenment philosophers or scientists—ex: there’s not many ways to interpret Newton’s science or Tom Paine’s “Another evil which attends hereditary succession is, that the throne is subject to be possessed by a minor at any age; all which time the regency, acting under the cover of a king, have every opportunity and inducement to betray their trust. The same national misfortune happens, when a king worn out with age and infirmity, enters the last stage of human weakness. In both these cases the public becomes a prey to every miscreant, who can tamper successfully with the follies either of age or infancy.”—I would not in the least rule out that we continue to interpret Enlightenment texts in the light of our contemporary context. BUT, I would also suggest that the two texts of are a very different nature. The Bible is imaginative in the extreme, one of the most powerfully imaginative works yet produced (I mean this in nothing but a positive sense); the texts of the Enlightenment, while handy and well-expressed, are not imaginative literature. They lack the power to require, as Bloom puts it, “misreading.” Comparatively, one could look at the relationship between the legal writings of Edward Coke and the poetry of Walt Whitman. In the former, everything is generally practical, empirical, and unimaginative—though important, obviously; the latter is pure imagination, and offers up the true sublime to the mind, and requires—because poetry and imaginative literature and religious writings make use of symbolism, narrative, sonority of syllable, and every other formal device that supports the ambiguity (a positive) of the text—the reader to instinctively interpret that object which has so affected his mind and senses. I would say this leads not to “no principles,” but to many versions of a truth—Aquinas and Adams both had their versions of Christianity; the fact that there are two versions does not mean that “certitude” slips from the sphere of principle, but that reality has been burst open into many versions of principle; as Godard says in Notre Musique, “Truth has two faces.” I would add many more of those faces to the equation.

I view this as an encouraging, optimistic light to view the world and everything in it; it does not reduce reality, but allows for the emanation of truth from many mouths. It requires us to not thrust towards the easy answer, but to admit many causalities and strive for the solid truth of complex reality.

First of all you have a very intelligent post.

Second....Enlightenment writings can't be misread? Are you familiar with the Progessive period in America? That all about the different interpretations of republicanism and republican principles (espoused by Enlightenment thinkers). Before that period, everybody undertood the meanings of liberty and freedom to be as little government interference as possible. During that period, people started to interpret these Enlightenment concepts to mean the government needs to be proactive to protect my freedoms and liberty. And in order for me to be a good republican citizen, the government needs to get involved in the economy. One of Herbet Croly's most famous sayings is "Hamiltonian means to a Jeffersonian end." It was because this new interpretation of Enlightenment values that we got both New Deal's, and things have gone downhill since.

This conversation is turning to philosophy, and if you'd like to start a different thread dedicated to that, I'll support you.

This thread is about the influence of Christian principles on the founding of this country. I've pointed out that the founders were influenced heavily by Christian principles. We can argue all day long about what those principles are and if they are even Christian principles at all. That is not relevant. What is relevant is that our founders saw Enlightenment values as Christian as well, and applied them to the founding. Therefore, Christian "principles" had a major impact on the founding, as I among others pointed out.
 
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First of all you have a very intelligent post.

Second....Enlightenment writings lacked the power to be misread? Are you familiar with the Progessive period in America? That all about the different interpretations of republicanism and republican principles (espoused by Enlightenment thinkers). Before that period, everybody undertood the meanings of liberty and freedom to be as little government interference as possible. During that period, people started to interpret these Enlightenment concepts to mean the government needs to be proactive to protect my freedoms and liberty. And in order for me to be a good republican citizen, the government needs to get involved in the economy. One of Herbet Croly's most famous sayings is "Hamiltonian means to a Jeffersonian end." It was because this new interpretation of Enlightenment values that we got both New Deal's, and things have gone downhill since.

To be quite honest, I haven’t read much of the writings on this, as I’ve pretty much disgusted with the Statist-welfare thought. That is, though, a very good example of how Enlightenment can be interpreted. Though, as I said, it isn’t on the same level as Christian interpretation—the former seems to me a debate over the method of insuring how established concepts (freedom and liberty) are obtained, and the nature of government’s role in this method; the latter can vary so dramatically that the face of the original text can be seen throughout history in the contexts almost absolutely different social orders, from government to etiquette, to existential views, etc. I don’t deny the possibility of Enlightenment philosophy—which is many things, really—being interpreted; I think it is inevitable; I do think, on the other hand, that there are less wide boundaries to this. But you are right on this; the Sun itself needs the eye, as Blake said.

This conversation is turning to philosophy, and if you'd like to start a different thread dedicated to that, I'll support you.

This thread is about the influence of Christian principles on the founding of this country. I've pointed out that the founders were influenced heavily by Christian principles. We can argue all day long about what those principles are and if they are even Christian principles at all. That is not relevant. What is relevant is that our founders saw Enlightenment values as Christian, and applied them to the founding. Therefore, Christian "principles" had a major impact on the founding, as I among others pointed out.

To be honest, I don’t really want another thread; I need to limit how much time I spend on online in this manner. This topic keeps pulling me back already.
 
To be quite honest, I haven’t read much of the writings on this, as I’ve pretty much disgusted with the Statist-welfare thought. That is, though, a very good example of how Enlightenment can be interpreted. Though, as I said, it isn’t on the same level as Christian interpretation—the former seems to me a debate over the method of insuring how established concepts (freedom and liberty) are obtained, and the nature of government’s role in this method; the latter can vary so dramatically that the face of the original text can be seen throughout history in the contexts almost absolutely different social orders, from government to etiquette, to existential views, etc. I don’t deny the possibility of Enlightenment philosophy—which is many things, really—being interpreted; I think it is inevitable; I do think, on the other hand, that there are less wide boundaries to this. But you are right on this; the Sun itself needs the eye, as Blake said.

I understand what you saying about the differences in levels of interpretation. I'm not going to disagree and I think you raise a smart point. My argument about the Christian principle thing still stands though.

As far as progressivism goes, what I referenced is typically called "effective freedom," or "positive freedom,"or positive liberty."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_freedom is a good starting to got from if you're interested. Of course, being wikipedia, the article does not go nearly far enough in describing it. Also, more Enlightenment thinkers works go "re-interpreted" other than Rosseau such as John Locke and his social contract and Voltaire who was looked at as sticking up for the less fortunate. This type of Progressive Era thinking is why Clinton and Obama can get away with using freedom and liberty in the same sentence as promoting more government.
 
Um, what? This makes no sense at all and has nothing to do with the thread topic.

Rant against Chrisianity and Christians in another thread.

Sure it does, you just dont like the message. It is a summary of the arguments that after so many pages have proved nothing. When you start with an unprovable premise then you will come to the illogical fallacies found here.
Either way, it matters little. The outcome will be that those who have had power in the past will continue to attempt to write history in their favor without realizing that the future is being written by those of us who hold contempt for the overly forceful religious zealots who attempt to creat a christian nation through the legislation by the gospel.
Both sides have attempted to prove their point and it has come to a stalemate. The only proof that the Christian side has is a few quotes by some of the founders. This does not prove the OP original position. They have failed to prove that this was the only or majority basis for the decisions written into our founding documents.
The opposing side has not proven that Christianity was not an influence but has been able to prove that it was not the only basis and therefore rendering the OP point to be false and without merit. Any objective person can see this, but I doubt those that wish to taint history will agree.
Either way, I couldnt care less. The future is ours, those that love true unbiased freedom above all and are willing to sacrifice our pet projects in order to attain a truely neutral country based upon mutual respect. This can only be accompished by stopping those that attempt to infest government with their own agenda. Such things like "In god we trust" on our money wasnt necessary for the first 150 years of our existance and we did just fine. Monuments such as the ten commandments in the courthouse is christian arrogance and has no place being paid for or displayed in publicly owned buildings. I could go on and on.
For the good of the nation, I would hope that Christians realize that your kingdom is in Heaven and that you should care not for things of this world. Leave the earth and especially America to us, the sensible ones who will allow you to have your religion as long as we dont have to have it shoved down our throat or in our face. TY
 
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Sure it does, you just dont like the message. It is a summary of the arguments that after so many pages have proved nothing. When you start with an unprovable premise then you will come to the illogical fallacies found here.
Either way, it matters little. The outcome will be that those who have had power in the past will continue to attempt to write history in their favor without realizing that the future is being written by those of us who hold contempt for the overly forceful religious zealots who attempt to creat a christian nation through the legislation by the gospel.
Both sides have attempted to prove their point and it has come to a stalemate. The only proof that the Christian side has is a few quotes by some of the founders. This does not prove the OP original position. They have failed to prove that this was the only or majority basis for the decisions written into our founding documents.
The opposing side has not proven that Christianity was not an influence but has been able to prove that it was not the only basis and therefore rendering the OP point to be false and without merit. Any objective person can see this, but I doubt those that wish to taint history will agree.
Either way, I couldnt care less. The future is ours, those that love true unbiased freedom above all and are willing to sacrifice our pet projects in order to attain a truely neutral country based upon mutual respect. This can only be accompished by stopping those that attempt to infest government with their own agenda. Such things like "In god we trust" on our money wasnt necessary for the first 150 years of our existance and we did just fine. Monuments such as the ten commandments in the courthouse is christian arrogance and has no place being paid for or displayed in publicly owned buildings. I could go on and on.
For the good of the nation, I would hope that Christians realize that your kingdom is in Heaven and that you should care not for things of this world. Leave the earth and especially America to us, the sensible ones who will allow you to have your religion as long as we dont have to have it shoved down our throat or in our face. TY

You obviously haven't read my posts if you think the only arguments that agree with the premise of the OP are a few quotes from the founders. Like I said, I'm not sure why you or anyone else is bringing up things that have nothing to do with the thread like "In God We Trust" on our money.

I go back to my question of what exaclty are you talking about? I'm speaking specifically for myself, but I have not argued anything outside of history. I never suggested Christianity should influence the government or anything of the like. I've never argued about Christian symbols and phrases on buildings and why they should be there. Don't use such sweeping statements and lump all Christians together, just because some of them argue for things you and I don't like. If you disagree with my evidence, please refute it specifically or get out of the way. Use another thread for your soapbox.

Besides, if you could care less about this why are you even posting here other than to preach about your views that do not address the preimse of the OP?

I've argued that Christianity was not the only influence, but was just as big as any other, and the OP has stated the same thing.

I'm not going to deny the existence of arrogance of certain Christians, but to claim all Christians are? Again, stop using sweeping statements that make you look silly. Maybe there is arrogance on your part, saying that the premise of the OP is wrong, but yet won't refute evidence to support it (specifically mine). Am I suggesting I am right and my evidence is irrefutable? No, but at least I'm providing solid evidence by non-religious nutjobs to back up my claims.

The best piece of advice I ever got was: "when you point the finger of blame, remember there are three fingers pointing back at you."
 
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ROFL!!! Thirty five of the Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of the orthodox Christian Churches and others were evangelical Christians. Heheh are you implying they were all atheists? Where is your evidence of this? LOL

To my understanding, and I am a history major, the overwhelming majority of the founding fathers were Deists. There were also some Unitarians and closet-case atheists. Thomas Jefferson was very disappointed in the amount of influence that religion had in the republic. I consider myself to be a born again Christian and a follower of the teachings of Christ. It does not bother me that the founding fathers weren't of the same faith as me. Read the 1796 treaty with Tripoli.
 
The Facts Remain the Same

Sure it does, you just dont like the message. It is a summary of the arguments that after so many pages have proved nothing. When you start with an unprovable premise then you will come to the illogical fallacies found here.
Either way, it matters little. The outcome will be that those who have had power in the past will continue to attempt to write history in their favor without realizing that the future is being written by those of us who hold contempt for the overly forceful religious zealots who attempt to creat a christian nation through the legislation by the gospel.
Both sides have attempted to prove their point and it has come to a stalemate. The only proof that the Christian side has is a few quotes by some of the founders. This does not prove the OP original position. They have failed to prove that this was the only or majority basis for the decisions written into our founding documents.
The opposing side has not proven that Christianity was not an influence but has been able to prove that it was not the only basis and therefore rendering the OP point to be false and without merit. Any objective person can see this, but I doubt those that wish to taint history will agree.
Either way, I couldnt care less. The future is ours, those that love true unbiased freedom above all and are willing to sacrifice our pet projects in order to attain a truely neutral country based upon mutual respect. This can only be accompished by stopping those that attempt to infest government with their own agenda. Such things like "In god we trust" on our money wasnt necessary for the first 150 years of our existance and we did just fine. Monuments such as the ten commandments in the courthouse is christian arrogance and has no place being paid for or displayed in publicly owned buildings. I could go on and on.
For the good of the nation, I would hope that Christians realize that your kingdom is in Heaven and that you should care not for things of this world. Leave the earth and especially America to us, the sensible ones who will allow you to have your religion as long as we dont have to have it shoved down our throat or in our face. TY

I suggest you read this, mtmedlin, and stop with your unfounded, illogical, and "atheistically"-biased statements against the truth of America's Christian founding, which only show your personal hatred of Christianity. The facts still remain, whether or not you like them or agree with them.
 
Theocrat, your hanging onto that one little, non-binding, unpassed resolution written by people who voted for the war, the patriot act, and are still voting for those things is completely pathetic.
 
Tsk, Tsk

Theocrat, your hanging onto that one little, non-binding, unpassed resolution written by people who voted for the war, the patriot act, and are still voting for those things is completely pathetic.

You still have not disproven the truth of its propositions, sophocles07. I find that pathetic on your part. It's okay, though, because you've already lost this debate. You can now crawl back under the rock you believe you evolved from. :D
 
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Etymological background
The first-known uses of the terms "Judeo-Christian" and "Judeo-Christianity", according to the Oxford English Dictionary, are 1899 and 1910 respectively, but both were discussing the emergence of Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian_tradition

Wish I could afford the subscription, might just win an ounce of gold... - lol

m

Delegates unite!!!

Dare to WIN!!!

Actually you made my point. I was off by a year, perhaps?

Then how can a country be founded on something that was never mentioned until over a century after it's founding?

My point is that language is essential in order to convey ideas. By changing meanings of words to conform to ideologies- think "gay marriage"- you can easily convince people that a dog is a cat or up is down, peace war, slavery freedom.

America was no more based on "Judeo-Christian" values than it was on "Islamo-Aryan ones. Allowing the newest power players in the population to redefine it's history doesn't make it so, it only makes it part of the power meme of the day.

Good luck with that.
 
You still have not disproven the truth of its propositions, sophocles07. I find that pathetic on your part. It's okay, though, because you've already lost this debate. You can now crawl back under the rock you believe you evolved from. :D

I've decided to read through this resolution, but I'm simply not convinced. The sum of the resolution is:

Affirming the rich spiritual and religious history of our Nation’s
founding and subsequent history and expressing
support for designation of the first week in May as
‘‘American Religious History Week’’ for the appreciation
of and education on America’s history of religious faith.

Whereas religious faith was not only important in official
American life during the periods of discovery, exploration,
colonization, and growth but has also been acknowledged
and incorporated into all 3 branches of American Federal
government from their very beginning;

No where in this does it say that the principles the country was founded upon are Christian, or Judeo-Christian, or anything. It says that religion played a major role in the founding era, and the government since then has been religious, and that's it. It's that simple. It simply says that our history is rich with religion. That is true, but so what? It does not say that we were founded upon religious principles. This resolution has nothing to do with the premise of the OP.
 
Pardon My Frankness, But...

I've decided to read through this resolution, but I'm simply not convinced. The sum of the resolution is:

Affirming the rich spiritual and religious history of our Nation’s
founding and subsequent history and expressing
support for designation of the first week in May as
‘‘American Religious History Week’’ for the appreciation
of and education on America’s history of religious faith.

Whereas religious faith was not only important in official
American life during the periods of discovery, exploration,
colonization, and growth but has also been acknowledged
and incorporated into all 3 branches of American Federal
government from their very beginning;

Your assessment is extremely simplistic. The Resolution says more than just what you've posted here. I don't see how you can't see that. Just read what it says.

No where in this does it say that the principles the country was founded upon are Christian, or Judeo-Christian, or anything. It says that religion played a major role in the founding era, and the government since then has been religious, and that's it. It's that simple. It simply says that our history is rich with religion. That is true, but so what? It does not say that we were founded upon religious principles. This resolution has nothing to do with the premise of the OP.

Uh, hello! The Resolution states this on Page 6:

Whereas in 1854 the United States House of Representatives
declared ‘‘It [religion] must be considered as the foundation
on which the whole structure rests . . . Christianity;
in its general principles, is the great conservative element
on which we must rely for the purity and permanence of
free institutions’’;

And this:

Whereas in 1853 the United States Senate declared that the
Founding Fathers ‘‘had no fear or jealousy of religion
itself, nor did they wish to see us an irreligious people
. . . they did not intend to spread over all the public authorities
and the whole public action of the nation the
dead and revolting spectacle of atheistical apathy’’;

Whereas America’s first Presidential Inauguration incorporated
7 specific religious activities, including—
(1) the use of the Bible to administer the oath;
(2) affirming the religious nature of the oath by the
adding the prayer ‘‘So help me God!’’ to the oath;
(3) inaugural prayers offered by the President;
(4) religious content in the inaugural address;
(5) civil leaders calling the people to prayer or acknowledgement
of God;
(6) inaugural worship services attended en masse by
Congress as an official part of congressional activities;
and
(7) clergy-led inaugural prayers, activities which
have been replicated in whole or part by every subsequent
President;

I could go on and on, but here's the point. This Resolution simply affirms and testifies what the thread starter, Deborah K, has already proven in this forum thread: America was indeed established on Christian principles. With all due respect, you're simply blind or willingly ignorant if you can't see and understand that's the intent of H. Res. 888. Thus, I believe this Resolution serves as an additional witness of what the thread starter has originally set out to prove, even if it's stated from the most unlikely of places, namely, our current U.S. House of Representatives.
 
Your Link Proves Nothing


All this blog does is offer the author's own personal interpretation and opinion of what he thinks of America's Christian founding. This is not honest scholarship, nor is he an authority on such matters, as evidenced by his use of logical fallacies in his argumentation to try and disprove the truth of America's Godly heritage. Nice try, Minestra di pomodoro.
 
All this blog does is offer the author's own personal interpretation and opinion of what he thinks of America's Christian founding.

It doesn't look like that to me. Tell me this. Do you think that evolution is "opinion" also?

This is not honest scholarship, nor is he an authority on such matters, as evidenced by his use of logical fallacies in his argumentation to try and disprove the truth of America's Godly heritage.

Which logical fallacies? He searched for the quote that Newt Gingrich attributed to George Washington and found that it was never properly sourced but often repeated. He also found the primary source for "Washington's Prayer" which was augmented at the National Prayer Breakfast -- The original was not a prayer at all!
 
I suggest you read this, mtmedlin, and stop with your unfounded, illogical, and "atheistically"-biased statements against the truth of America's Christian founding, which only show your personal hatred of Christianity. The facts still remain, whether or not you like them or agree with them.

Arrogance again. I have read your drivel and it is written on a biased sense again. I stopped reading the stuff you post simple because it is all the same and lacks the credibility that a scholar would find to be effective debate.
Your amazing arrogance again comes out in stating that my debate is "atheistically"-biased statements . Hate to break it to you, but Iam not an atheist nor do I hate all christians. the OP made a premise and in it she made the statement that the majority of the founders took principles that were based in the christian religion as the main source for writing the founding documents. this statement come from her second post.
I proved that point invalid by pointing out that the supposed research was biased from the outset because they found what they started out looking for. Its easy to tailor "research" to whatever you want it to say. The true arrogance is when Christians decide that the Bible was not a made up document that was chosen by the early catholic church and edited out tombs that it didnt agree with. The bible is an innacurate collection of scrolls that were not all written by followers of the christian faith and had deep roots that went back to ancient writers and older religions.
You can give me list after list of your drivel and hope that I will believe it but you never take on the task of proving that it is the Bible and not other documents that were the true basis. hell, the bible isnt even based off of completely origincal texts. Our constitution is a model of English common law which has more to do with Islam then Christianity. Explain that. Dont come at me with your contempt angle, I already have that covered.
 
I've argued that Christianity was not the only influence, but was just as big as any other, and the OP has stated the same thing.

I'm not going to deny the existence of arrogance of certain Christians, but to claim all Christians are? Again, stop using sweeping statements that make you look silly. Maybe there is arrogance on your part, saying that the premise of the OP is wrong, but yet won't refute evidence to support it (specifically mine). Am I suggesting I am right and my evidence is irrefutable? No, but at least I'm providing solid evidence by non-religious nutjobs to back up my claims.

The best piece of advice I ever got was: "when you point the finger of blame, remember there are three fingers pointing back at you."

1. No the OP didnt argue that, read up son, your behind. In her rebutals, she has claimed that the Bible was the major influence. Come in hear to correct me, you need to have your facts of the basic argument down a little better then that.

2. Knock off with the "makes you look silly" and "arrogance onyour part" bullshit. When you dont even understand the debate, making statements like this....really.

3. You want me to read your long winded bs, then shorten it up and make a point. I read over your stuff and got board real easy because you were arguing a point that I wasnt making. Dont address me, unless you address the point I am making.

4. Lastly, your statement "I've argued that Christianity was not the only influence, but was just as big as any other, and the OP has stated the same thing. is completly unprovable. How do you measure % of influence. BS again. The only point that I have made and continue to make is that 1. Christianity was not the basis for the founding documents because its own foundings are not original.
2. The fouding fathers based the constitution around one major factor. English Common law, which has much deeper roots in Islamic law then any other religion.
3. Ancient writings like Platos "republic" would have been required reading for all men who attended school. Since I do not know of any founder who did not attend some form of schooling, it is much more accurate to say that the ideas expressed by those books played a major role in the formation of the Constitution.

the bible was there but English common law and well written texts were the major influence, no a cherry picked book of tombs that were written well after the death of the supposed founder.

Argue that.
 
Your assessment is extremely simplistic. The Resolution says more than just what you've posted here. I don't see how you can't see that. Just read what it says.



Uh, hello! The Resolution states this on Page 6:



And this:





I could go on and on, but here's the point. This Resolution simply affirms and testifies what the thread starter, Deborah K, has already proven in this forum thread: America was indeed established on Christian principles. With all due respect, you're simply blind or willingly ignorant if you can't see and understand that's the intent of H. Res. 888. Thus, I believe this Resolution serves as an additional witness of what the thread starter has originally set out to prove, even if it's stated from the most unlikely of places, namely, our current U.S. House of Representatives.

Just because the Senate in the mid-19th century said something, doesn't mean it is true. Where did those senators get their information from to make their judgement? Just because the House, in the mid 19th century declared something does that make it true? Where did their get their information from to make their judgements? I'm confused on why you think just because the Senate or the House says something about history, it is automatically true. So please, provide their sources of information in which they made that judgement. I'll reiterate that those quotes from some of the founders in this resolution only say how important religion is, not that they were inspired by Christianity to form our government.

So again, please provide the Senate and the House's sources of information on which they made this judgement. Or was it just their opinion? When you talk about history, my friend, you provide sources. Pointing to this resolution and saying "well the Senate said it in 1853, it must be true!" is not sufficient. If you cannot provide me with their sources, I'll just assume that their delcarations were just their opinion which means nothing in the realm of academia.

Please enlighten me.
 
1. No the OP didnt argue that, read up son, your behind. In her rebutals, she has claimed that the Bible was the major influence. Come in hear to correct me, you need to have your facts of the basic argument down a little better then that.

2. Knock off with the "makes you look silly" and "arrogance onyour part" bullshit. When you dont even understand the debate, making statements like this....really.

3. You want me to read your long winded bs, then shorten it up and make a point. I read over your stuff and got board real easy because you were arguing a point that I wasnt making. Dont address me, unless you address the point I am making.

4. Lastly, your statement "I've argued that Christianity was not the only influence, but was just as big as any other, and the OP has stated the same thing. is completly unprovable. How do you measure % of influence. BS again. The only point that I have made and continue to make is that 1. Christianity was not the basis for the founding documents because its own foundings are not original.
2. The fouding fathers based the constitution around one major factor. English Common law, which has much deeper roots in Islamic law then any other religion.
3. Ancient writings like Platos "republic" would have been required reading for all men who attended school. Since I do not know of any founder who did not attend some form of schooling, it is much more accurate to say that the ideas expressed by those books played a major role in the formation of the Constitution.

the bible was there but English common law and well written texts were the major influence, no a cherry picked book of tombs that were written well after the death of the supposed founder.

Argue that.

Well, other people in this thread read what I wrote and responded in intelligent and logical ways, I don't understand why you can't. Why is it long winded? Because I actually use sources to back up my claims? Again, maybe we can have an intelligent conversation when you can refute my sources. I find it humorous you're telling me to read up, but you refuse to read my posts. I also find it humorus you're telling me I don't understand the debate, but again refuse to read anything I typed and you still are trying to argue with me.

It's hard to argue with that since I've agree with half of it, and the other half you'd need to read my posts to understand why I disagree with that other half.
 
You still have not disproven the truth of its propositions, sophocles07. I find that pathetic on your part. It's okay, though, because you've already lost this debate. You can now crawl back under the rock you believe you evolved from.

Oh my god you are brilliantly funny.


BTW: familydog has certainly iced yooo buttcheeks on this one, cattleprod.
 
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