Ashli Babbitt was armed and dangerous

[jmdrake]

Okay then so you admit there are 3 people in the hallway? You originally said there were 2. (Other than Boyd)

That's not what I'm saying at all. There were 3 people total including Boyd. Boyd and one other person were on the left side. Then the person in the grey suit that was earier framed at the door at the end of the halway moved to the left side. So 2 + 1 = 3 total on the left side. At that point there was nobody in the halway except those three INCLUDING Boyd. But none of this makes a hill of beans difference. Let's say that there were 3 people hunkered against the wall (or in a doorframe) and one guy (in the grey suit) walking back and forth, "chilling" as you said. So? And? That actually WEAKENS your point to say 3 people were on the left side.

You can barely even see the guy, anything about that dude's posture is merely speculation.

What is not speculation, is the dude that is walking around the middle of the hallway. Looks like he's bored. Not even the biggest moron would call that dude's posture "defensive". (feel free to prove me wrong on that count, though)

Okay. So YOU can't say anything about the posture of anybody but the guy in the grey suit either! So why the hell are you trying to make an issue of how many people were on the left side pressed against the wall when even if there were 20 of them that doesn't advance your argument? Wasn't your argument earlier that there were "4 or 5 people chilling and relaxing in the halway?" Now it's "One guy walking back and forth (not chilling) and an unknown number of people hunkered against the wall or in a door jam."

I can prove 20 minutes. But I know it was a lot closer to 30 minutes because I watched the event live and a lot of the footage that they showed live is not available for me to provide you with. In large part because I don't think they even formally admit that they use the subway as an evacuation procedure. One of the people that was filming live was even explicitly told this, something to the effect of "you're not allowed to film here, the subway and evacuation procedures are confidential".

And....the point of this timeline argument is what exactly? This has NOTHING to do with the fact that there were members of congress in the hallway just a barracade away a mere two minutes before Ashlii Babbitt attempted to crawl through. You're arguning about a meaningless data point.

Anyone who was still there was there because they wanted to be there.

Okay. That in no way lessened the duty of the Capital Hill Police to protect the Congress people who were still there. When Trump was shot he stood up and pumped his fist in the air. That's pretty reckless, but he had a right to do it. His secret service still had the exact same duty to protect him as they would have if he had done the sensible thing and stayed low. You've made a total non argument.

 

[jmdrake]

Byrd would have needed x-ray vision to see the knife considering it was in her pocket when she was shot

Had she stayed on her side of the barricade she'd still be alive.

 

[TheTexan]

And....the point of this timeline argument is what exactly? This has NOTHING to do with the fact that there were members of congress in the hallway just a barracade away a mere two minutes before Ashlii Babbitt attempted to crawl through. You're arguning about a meaningless data point.

And those people "2 minutes prior" were also literally just chilling there relaxing.

And chatting amongst themselves.

"Afraid for their lives". Surely.

They had an evacuation route that was open and available to them that entire time!!! And the people in the video you saw "2 minutes prior" were choosing not to use it

Okay. That in no way lessened the duty of the Capital Hill Police to protect the Congress people who were still there.

It doesn't lessen their duty to protect, but it does show a clear lack of an immediate threat to anyone's life, which is normally a prerequisite before using lethal force.

There were plenty of non-lethal options available to protect the poor, innocent congress critters from possible future harm.

 

[jmdrake]

And those people "2 minutes prior" were also literally just chilling there relaxing.

And chatting amongst themselves.

"Afraid for their lives". Surely.

This was all BEFORE the mob with Ashlii Babbitt started smashing the windows.

There were plenty of non-lethal options available to protect the poor, innocent congress critters from possible future harm.

....until there weren't.

 

[TheTexan]

This was all BEFORE the mob with Ashlii Babbitt started smashing the windows.

....until there weren't.

Okay, so they weren't afraid for their lives when they could visibly see the rioters,

but somehow they were afraid for their lives when they were out of the room entirely and 2 minutes walking distance away (or running distance, if you're Josh Hawley)

Who was Officer Byrd even protecting?

 

[jmdrake]

Okay, so they weren't afraid for their lives when they could visibly see the rioters,

but somehow they were afraid for their lives when they were out of the room entirely and 2 minutes walking distance away (or running distance, if you're Josh Hawley)

Who was Officer Byrd even protecting?

I get it. I'm being trolled. Masterfully I might add. You're right to use deadly force to protect somene else isn't dependant upon that person physically being their at that moment to witness it. But anyway, well played sir well played.

 

[TheTexan]

I get it. I'm being trolled. Masterfully I might at. You're right to use deadly force to protect somene else isn't dependant upon that person physically being their at that moment to witness it. But anyway, well played sir well played.

It pretty much is though, that's what "immediate threat" usually means.

If the person you are defending is not even within shouting distance, it's pretty hard to say that they are in immediate danger.

 

[jmdrake]

It pretty much is though, that's what "immediate threat" usually means.

If the person you are defending is not even within shouting distance, it's pretty hard to say that they are in immediate danger.

So....I want to make sure I understand. Thugs come into your house to specifically rape and kill your daughter. She runs out the back door and gets a 2 minute head start. It's snow on the ground so she can be easily tracked. The thugs definitely don't want you. They only want your daughter. You can't shoot to kill at that point? Seriously?

 

[tebowlives]

I get it. I'm being trolled. Masterfully I might add. You're right to use deadly force to protect somene else isn't dependant upon that person physically being their at that moment to witness it. But anyway, well played sir well played.

You're not being trolled. That's just a pussy comment because you've been outed as a someone who makes things up and thinks repeating made up stories has value.

 

[tebowlives]

So....I want to make sure I understand. Thugs come into your house to specifically rape and kill your daughter. She runs out the back door and gets a 2 minute head start. It's snow on the ground so she can be easily tracked. The thugs definitely don't want you. They only want your daughter. You can't shoot to kill at that point? Seriously?

No one was attacking the racist security guard who murdered Babbitt.

 

[TheTexan]

So....I want to make sure I understand. Thugs come into your house to specifically rape and kill your daughter. She runs out the back door and gets a 2 minute head start. It's snow on the ground so she can be easily tracked. The thugs definitely don't want you. They only want your daughter. You can't shoot to kill at that point? Seriously?

There's literally an armed guard every 10 yards along the path to my daughter so while I will indeed shoot the thugs I will take my sweet time with doing it for she is not in any danger

 

[jmdrake]

There's literally an armed guard every 10 yards along the path to my daughter so while I will indeed shoot the thugs I will take my sweet time with doing it for she is not in any danger

And so there are a most 4 armed guards in the hallway (I'll give you the guy you think is multiple man) and an unknown number of angry rioters coming after your daughter so you just like "It'll be fine" and give warning after warning? Yeah...I'm not buying it.

 

[TheTexan]

And so there are a most 4 armed guards in the hallway (I'll give you the guy you think is multiple man) and an unknown number of angry rioters coming after your daughter so you just like "It'll be fine" and give warning after warning? Yeah...I'm not buying it.

Warning after warning? No.

But at least one solid warning to that individual, that I can personally confirm the attacker saw or heard, there is ample time to afford such a warning.

A warning that the person "should have heard" from "other people" falls far short of adequate warning if you're going to take the life of someone who doesn't even have a visible weapon.

 

[jmdrake]

Warning after warning? No.

But at least one solid warning to that individual, that I can personally confirm the attacker saw or heard, there is ample time to afford such a warning.

A warning that the person "should have heard" from "other people" falls far short of adequate warning if you're going to take the life of someone who doesn't even have a visible weapon.

And so the person keeps coming towards you. He doesn't have a knife that you can see because you, like officer Byrd, lack X ray vision. At the same time others are pouring through the barricade. Now what? Try to do an arrest?

 

[TheTexan]

And so the person keeps coming towards you. He doesn't have a knife that you can see because you, like officer Byrd, lack X ray vision. At the same time others are pouring through the barricade. Now what? Try to do an arrest?

Let's just say, through an unimaginable feat of agility, Ashli Babbitt were to have leaped past the chairs on the other side of the barricade, with such a swiftness and manner that I, Officer Byrd, was entirely unable to get her attention, and she simply made a bee line and sprinted right past me without even acknowledging my presence, I would trust that the guards behind me would raise their weapons to stop her. As they did in the subway when they subdued 30+ other people.

If she ignored their raised weapons, who she clearly would have been aware of as they would have been standing directly in her path? The shooting would be much more justifiable at that point though I do think it would be extremely cowardly to shoot a visibly unarmed woman even if she was about to get her grubby unarmed hands onto a congress critter.

If trained capitol police are not able to subdue a woman without shooting her, they should probably be fired and replaced by someone who can.

As for the other that are "pouring through", this is a fantastical notion. The reality of the situation is that the barricade was still 99% effective, and there was zero immediate risk of a "horde of murderous zombies" flying through the barricade.

If Officer Byrd was even halfway competent, what actually would have happened would have been this:

1) Ashli Babbitt pokes her head through the window and begins to cross over
2) Byrd watches as Ashli stumbles awkwardly over the pile of chairs
3) Byrd shouts at Ashli as she is doing this, pointing a gun at her
4) Ashli sees the gun, finds her way to the floor and puts her hands on her head
5) During this time, 2-3 other people at most, and more likely 0 after seeing the gun, have crossed the barricade and are likewise stumbling over the chairs at this point
6) They see Ashli with a gun aimed at her, with her on the ground, and they do the same
7) The crowd on the other side of the barricade realize that this game is over and they turn around and go home and/or get arrested on their way out

If I am wrong about how the above scenario would play out (and I am not), it's still not justifiable to shoot Ashli before there's an actual imminent threat.

And it's not an actual imminent threat until at least several people have crossed the barricade.

 

[Anti Federalist]

So....I want to make sure I understand. Thugs come into your house to specifically rape and kill your daughter. She runs out the back door and gets a 2 minute head start. It's snow on the ground so she can be easily tracked. The thugs definitely don't want you. They only want your daughter. You can't shoot to kill at that point? Seriously?

A lot would depend on the jurisdiction, but, in many places you would not be justified in using lethal force.

 

[69360]

If you want to blame somebody, blame Trump. He is the one who got these people all worked up. Her blood is on his hands.