Trump’s Immigration Ban Is Illegal

When it says "provided" that means the prioritized list will only be made from the minority religion applicants. The SOS and SHS will make exceptions on a "basis of religious-based persecution" ONLY if the persons are from a religious minority in that country. There is NO other way to read that. The majority religion of that country will NOT be considered for exceptions, period.

In your reading and interpretation are you including the words prior to your bolding above; "to the extent permitted by law"?
If its not permitted by law (congrsssional law) it's not happening. How is this unconstitutional? I'm still not understanding your view
 
Congress cannot pass a law giving authority to the president to exclude people based on religion. They can broadly exclude people but NOT narrowing it down by religion. That is giving the federal government the power to favorably, Only allow immigrants of a certain religion. It is especially true at that time when the country was taking in huge numbers of people. If congress was not limited the dominant religion could have forced congress to exclude all religions they didn't like, thereby limiting the free exercise thereof.

How do you define a broad exclusion vs a narrow one? Is it broad to exclude all Muslims (not done in this EO, no matter how much you pretend it to be), and is it narrow to exclude counties listed in a piece of 2015 confessional legislation?
To say something can broadly exclude but cannot narrowly exclude is a difficult proposition. Who defines broad vs narrow?

also, the first amendment specifically means the exercise of religion within the USA jurisdiction. It does not pertain to a religious belief or a personals religion who is a non US citicen and/or not on US soil. This is a pure fact and cannot be disputed. I'm not sure if I may just be misunderstanding your point but to suggest the 1st amendment relates to a foreigner on Non-US soil isn't true ... it's that simple.
 
In your reading and interpretation are you including the words prior to your bolding above; "to the extent permitted by law"?
If its not permitted by law (congrsssional law) it's not happening. How is this unconstitutional? I'm still not understanding your view
That is a disclaimer thrown in but when it specifically includes language that is clearly against the constitution it is flawed. Nothing in the law that it is based, that I read, says the president can exclude by religion. If it does it is unconstitutional and can be struck down. With His EO he is NOT faithfully executing the law as congress passed it but trying to make a law say something it doesn't which is overstepping the power granted to the Executive branch. That also would be unconstitutional. To say otherwise would be the same as a president issuing a EO that states, "to the extent permitted by the second amendment and the Brady act I hereby order the confiscation of all privately owned firearms in America.
 
How do you define a broad exclusion vs a narrow one? Is it broad to exclude all Muslims (not done in this EO, no matter how much you pretend it to be), and is it narrow to exclude counties listed in a piece of 2015 confessional legislation?
To say something can broadly exclude but cannot narrowly exclude is a difficult proposition. Who defines broad vs narrow?

also, the first amendment specifically means the exercise of religion within the USA jurisdiction. It does not pertain to a religious belief or a personals religion who is a non US citicen and/or not on US soil. This is a pure fact and cannot be disputed. I'm not sure if I may just be misunderstanding your point but to suggest the 1st amendment relates to a foreigner on Non-US soil isn't true ... it's that simple.

So let me get this straight. You believe Congress has the authority to pass laws specifically allowing people of only the religion they chose to emigrate to this country?
 
That is a disclaimer thrown in but when it specifically includes language that is clearly against the constitution it is flawed. Nothing in the law that it is based, that I read, says the president can exclude by religion. If it does it is unconstitutional and can be struck down. With His EO he is NOT faithfully executing the law as congress passed it but trying to make a law say something it doesn't which is overstepping the power granted to the Executive branch. That also would be unconstitutional. To say otherwise would be the same as a president issuing a EO that states, "to the extent permitted by the second amendment and the Brady act I hereby order the confiscation of all privately owned firearms in America.

Now you're really confusing me.
So now you're suggesting that some words are 'thrown in' without meaning or purpose and others are not. On top of it all you're suggesting that you know the difference? Do you realize these words are in a continuous sentence? You can't pick some words and ignore others....I thought you claim to understand legal documents and thus, understand how the English language is written.



Based on your last sentence, the EO would not confiscate any firearms. So what's your point?
 
So let me get this straight. You believe Congress has the authority to pass laws specifically allowing people of only the religion they chose to emigrate to this country?

I couldn't help but notice how you ignored my opening point. Would you explain how I know the difference between broad and narrow exclusions which you mentioned earlier?
 
So let me get this straight. You believe Congress has the authority to pass laws specifically allowing people of only the religion they chose to emigrate to this country?

Maybe you should go back to reread the order. Nothing about religion. Seven nations mentioned. There is currently no way to verify documents issued by a non-government.
 
I couldn't help but notice how you ignored my opening point. Would you explain how I know the difference between broad and narrow exclusions which you mentioned earlier?
Tired of arguing the point. Feel free to read the below. Just bear in mind the if we defer to "necessary for national defense" the legal precedent especially if ruled that way by the SC will open the door wide for the next democrat to Declare Global warming a threat to national security superseding all of the bill of rights. Next the domestic war on terrorism will supersede the right to own and bear arms. People never learn. I will do great things with the ring of power...

http://law.emory.edu/eilr/recent-de...-emigrants-denied-entrance-united-states.html

The First Amendment and the Claim That Muslim Emigrants Be Denied Entrance into the United States
Vincent J. Samar *


Abstract

Terrorist attacks throughout the world and particularly within the United States have given rise to a new chapter in the ongoing debate over liberty versus security. The most recent manifestation of this dispute focuses on whether Muslim refugees can be denied entry as a class into the United States, based on their religion alone, for fear they might be harboring potential terrorists. This Essay shows that such a policy cannot be justified under the First Amendment Establishment Clause, as well the United States’ expressed international commitments to preserving international human rights. What can be done is to engage a broader set of investigative approaches that are more likely to provide greater security than any policy focused on religion alone.

Introduction

Recent terrorists’ killings in Paris, France and in San Bernardino, California have caused some in the United States (U.S.) to argue that no Muslims be allowed to emigrate into the United States. 1

This Essay will consider whether the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution disallows the government from denying any group of people entry into the United States based on religion alone. It also considers what impact the United States barring Muslims from entry would have on its international human rights obligations. Based on the assumption that such a restriction would not normally be within the constitutional power of the government to act, this Essay will also consider whether that limitation might be overcome by a compelling interest on the part of the United States to protect national security. Part I presents a very brief history of the Establishment Cause as a structural limitation on the power of government to act. Part II discusses the U.S.’s obligations under international human rights law to protect both the freedom to emigrate and the freedom of religion. Part III considers the compelling interest of the U.S. federal government to protect national security and the fact that this interest must be narrowly drawn when it would override other fundamental human rights. Finally, Part IV evaluates the practical implications of the present claim that potential Muslim emigrants into the United States can be denied entry based on religion alone.

I. The Establishment Clause

Since I have elsewhere dealt at some length with the Establishment Clause, how it came about, and what it means today, 2

I will keep my remarks here more focused on laying the groundwork for the present issue of Muslim emigration. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides in pertinent part: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of a religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . .” 3

This provision was adopted as part of the Bill of Rights in 1791 to fulfill a compromise reached in 1788 in Massachusetts between those who sought to create a strong central government and those concerned with protecting states’ rights and personal liberties. 4

The early history of the republic shows that many of the colonies were founded not so much out of fear of European state-established religions, but more out of fear that the state would force conformity and membership in a state religion. 5

Unfortunately, as several colonies in the New World sought to establish a particular religion, not all were tolerant of outsiders’ religions. 6

James Hudson provides a concise summary of the state of religion at the founding of the American Republic:

Although they were victims of religious persecution in Europe, the Puritans supported the Old World theory that sanctioned it, the need for uniformity of religion in the state. Once in control in New England, they sought to break “the very neck of Schism and vile opinions.” The “business” of the first settlers, a Puritan minister recalled in 1681, “was not Toleration, but [they] were professed enemies of it.” Puritans expelled dissenters from their colonies, a fate that in 1636 befell Roger Williams and in 1638 Anne Hutchinson, America’s first major female religious leader. Those who defied the Puritans by persistently returning to their jurisdictions risked capital punishment, a penalty imposed on four Quakers between 1659 and 1661. Reflecting on the seventeenth century’s intolerance, Thomas Jefferson was unwilling to concede to Virginians any moral superiority to the Puritans. Beginning in 1659 Virginia enacted anti-Quaker laws, including the death penalty for refractory Quakers. Jefferson surmised that “if no capital execution took place here, as did in New England, it was not owing to the moderation of the church, or spirit of the legislature.” 7


One of the most enlightening indications of early intolerance was the Virginia Declaration of Rights. “After declaring that ‘all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience,’” Article 16 of the Declaration continued “that it is the mutual duty of all to practise Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.” 8

Five states—New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, South Carolina, and to some degree, Maryland—“continued to have tax-supported established churches.” 9


Concerns such as these would later lead James Madison to note in the Federalist Paper No. 10 that “[a] zeal for different opinions concerning religion, concerning government, and many other points . . . have, in turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress each other, than to co-operate for their common good.” 10

As a consequence, when the new Constitution of 1787 was proposed to replace the Articles of Confederation, it specifically provided that

[t]he Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. 11


Anti-Federalists’ sentiment regarding the relationship of government to religion was more inconsistent. 12

Still, even the Constitution’s exclusion of a religious test as a way to avoid too much government involvement with religion would hardly have satisfied the Anti-Federalist Thomas Jefferson, who would later come to propose a “wall of separation between Church and State.” 13

Justice Reynolds would later elevate Jefferson’s proposal in Reynolds v. United States, 14

the 1879 U.S. Supreme Court case that upheld a federal law prohibiting polygamy in the then territory of Utah, by saying it “may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] [A]mendment thus secured.” 15

Indeed, the idea of a wall of separation would subsequently be invoked by Justice Hugo Black to also apply to states in Everson v. Board of Education, a case involving state reimbursements to parents for transportation of children attending public and parochial schools. 16

There, Justice Black held that the Establishment Clause applies to the states via the Fourteenth Amendment’s Due Process Clause, while still upholding New Jersey’s law permitting reimbursement of transportation expenses. 17


More recent commentary on the Establishment Clause describes the approaches taken by different Supreme Court Justices as “strict separation,” “neutrality theory,” and “accommodation/equality.” 18

The basis for these seemingly different approaches no doubt stems from the fact that the amendment itself does not clearly state what exactly constitutes an establishment of religion. This lack of clarity is especially poignant when, at times, it appears that the government can use religion in furtherance of various independent objectives, such as allowing state funding of religious-based drug and alcohol treatment centers. 19

Still, Everson demonstrates that the Court will inevitably interpret the Establishment Clause alongside the Free Exercise Clause, causing it to walk a tightrope between the two clauses. This would have been necessary in Everson, where some parents would have chosen to send their children to parochial rather than public schools. Still, the outer parameter of how far any accommodation to religion can go before it becomes an establishment of the state seems clear in Justice Black’s statement in Everson that the

“establishment of religion” clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. 20


Despite the subtle differences between various government benefit programs that involve religion, the clear line between accommodation and establishment is where the government’s action will “aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another.” 21

That is especially true, as Justice Black noted, not only where a criminal punishment may be involved, but also where the government imposition is in the form of a tax or a mere regulation that favors one religion over another. 22

The clear message Justice Black set out is that government cannot in any way favor one religion over another if the government is acting on the basis of religion alone. 23

Thus, if the effect of the government’s actions is to benefit one religion over another, it must in all cases be based, at least in part, on some independent, legitimate reason that the government has a powerful obligation to promote.

II. International Human Rights Law

Several international human rights documents address the rights to emigrate and of religious freedom. For example, Article 14(1) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) adopted by the United Nations in 1948 states: “Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.” 24

The Article goes on to provide that the right can only be asserted by those suffering from political, not civil, persecution. 25

Although it was originally believed to set forth only aspirational goals for U.N. member states to achieve, “the reference to [it as] customary law has become a standard argument in discussions of the legal nature of the Declaration and individual provisions thereof,” which would make it binding on all member states. 26

Additionally, Article 18 of the UDHR provides: “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.” 27

Particularly important when analyzing Article 18 of the UDHR is its subsequent inclusion in Article 18 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), which has almost identical wording. 28

This fact is crucial in understanding that the rights to emigrate and of religious freedom are binding treaty obligations on ICCPR signatory states, which includes the United States. 29


Reading these two documents—the UDHR and the ICCPR—together creates an obligation for the nations of the world to assist people escaping political persecution in their home countries and to do so without regard to their religious biases or prejudices. While the UDHR does not prescribe how many emigrants escaping persecution a country must admit, the UDHR, read alongside the ICCPR, clearly requires that the determination not be based on religion alone. That said, it would certainly be within the normal sovereign authority of any nation-state to provide appropriate quotas and vetting to ensure its own national well-being within the broader humanitarian purposes these treaties set forth. What would not be legal would be for a nation-state to refuse to admit an immigrant solely on grounds of the petitioner’s religion, while immigrants with other religious beliefs are easily admitted. This limitation is especially true where a nation-state has already agreed to admit persecuted persons, because the UDHR obligation is not even an issue in that case; rather, only the closing of the door to immigrants based on their religious belief would be a problem, should it happen.

Here it is important to also note that the ICCPR has the authority of federal—not just international—law. Under Article 6 of the U.S. Constitution,

all Treatises made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be [along with the Constitution itself and the Laws of the United States which are made in Pursuance thereof] the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding. 30


Since the ICCPR was ratified by the U.S. Senate in 1992, it is binding on the United States not only as a matter of international treaty law, but also as a matter of domestic federal law. 31

This means that, both as a matter of international and federal law, the United States cannot conduct its own immigration policy in a way that discriminates against immigrants based strictly on their religion. But what exactly would that policy look like?

In accordance with its obligations under the UDHR, the United States has an immigration policy designed to address incoming refugees seeking asylum from political persecution. 32

U.S. Immigration Policy is rather complex but can be briefly summarized as follows:

Refugees are admitted to the United States based upon an inability to return to their home countries because of a “well-founded fear of persecution” due to their race, membership in a social group, political opinion, religion, or national origin. Refugees apply for admission from outside of the United States, generally from a “transition country” that is outside their home country. The admission of refugees turns on numerous factors such as the degree of risk they face, membership in a group that is of special concern to the United States (designated yearly by the President of the United States and Congress), and whether or not they have family members in the U.S. 33


This policy both provides the criteria for who can be admitted to the country and affords the President a fair amount of discretion in making decisions about which groups are designated for admission. Still, it is clear from the language of the ICCPR and the U.S. Constitution, as discussed above, that religion by itself can never be a basis for refusing admittance, especially where the persecution is itself connected to religion. If religion could operate as the sole determinant for admission to the country, it would create a conflict between the government’s constitutional authority to provide a system for immigration and naturalization 34

and the Establishment Clause’s limitation on the government’s ability to act in these circumstances.

III. Protecting the National Security of the United States

By now it should be clear that because the United States cannot constitutionally favor one religion over another and because its international obligations and domestic policy require it to provide refuge for those fleeing political persecution, a general ban against Muslim emigrants fleeing persecution is not legally tenable. This does not, however, mean that appropriate procedures cannot be put in place to ensure the security and safety of those living in the United States. The problem that arises here, as with most areas where different legal (including, in this case, constitutional) obligations intersect, is knowing exactly where to draw this line.

As a general constitutional matter, the state cannot establish religion. But what if religion is itself an indicator of a potential threat to the homeland? Can the federal government then potentially refuse to grant refugee status to Muslims outside the United States fleeing persecution in order to safeguard the homeland? In other words, even though most Muslims are not terrorists, can refugee status be refused to all Muslims if a significant number of terrorists are Muslim? On the one hand, the First Amendment does not permit states to favor one religion over another, and refusing entry to Muslims would in fact be favoring non-Muslim refugees over Muslim refugees. Of course, the alleged reason for the United States restricting entry for Muslim refugees would not be because they are Muslim per se, but because the government views being Muslim as an indicator that the refugee is a terrorist. The problem is not avoided by claiming that non-nationals do not have a constitutional right to emigrate; the issue here is a structural limitation on the power of the U.S. government to establish religion—not to whom the right is being denied. While non-national refugees of any faith have a right to the possibility of asylum under the UDHR, their claim must be juxtaposed with the U.S. government’s constitutional obligation and sovereign authority to protect its own national security interests. I would present this latter obligation as the focus when deciding whether any group can be excluded from entry into the United States based on the compelling interests of national security and protection that every government shares and has a right to pursue.

The Constitution acknowledges this compelling interest when it states: “We the People of the United States . . . [are empowered to] provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Prosperity . . . .” 35

In so doing, it affords to Congress the specific power to raise an army and a navy, 36

and says that “[t]he President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into actual service of the United States . . . .” 37

But does the Constitution’s acknowledgement of these specific security interests automatically legitimize excluding any Muslim non-nationals from emigrating into the country, even if statistical support suggests that the exclusion of Muslims is likely to advance security? If it does, then this would seem to be a far greater extension of the federal government’s reach of power than the framers of the Bill of Rights intended when they adopted the Establishment Clause as a structural limitation on the scope of government power.

IV. Evaluating Muslim Refugees Entering the United States

It has been suggested that the Muslim refugee issue might bring about a rerun of the situation in Korematsu v. United States, 38

only now applied to Muslim non-nationals rather than Japanese-American citizens. In Korematsu, President Franklin Roosevelt issued an Executive Order after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor

designed to safeguard “against espionage [and] against sabotage,” and providing that certain military commanders might designate “military areas” in the United States “from which any and all persons may be excluded, and with which right of any person to enter, remain in, or leave shall be subject to whatever restrictions” the “Military Commander may impose in his discretion.” The West Coast program established for persons of Japanese ancestry included curfews, detention in relocation centers, and exclusion from the West Coast area. 39


In 1943, following a unanimous upholding of the curfew orders in Hirabayashi v. United States, the Court upheld the exclusion order by majority vote in Korematsu. 40

That decision has since been deeply regretted by subsequent members of the Supreme Court, most recently by Justice Stephen Breyer in his 2015 book, in which he points out that there was not a shred of evidence to support the government’s alleged need to exclude American citizens of Japanese ancestry from the West Coast and to intern them in detention camps. 41

The case was decided based on a perceived but unsubstantiated notion of military necessity. 42

It was a racial classification, but the Court was willing to accept the government’s interest as a sufficiently compelling justification, regardless of whether it applied strict scrutiny.

The present situation involving Muslim refugees does not exactly mirror Korematsu because the Muslims in question are not American citizens with the full range of constitutional rights that American citizens possess. However, once we move beyond this difference, the motivation for banning Muslim refugees from entering the United States parallels the motiviations in Korematsu: they are based on fear following armed attacks by a particular group. In Korematsu, the government reacted to the widespread fear in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor. Now, it wants to react to the widespread fear following the recent attacks in Paris and San Bernadino by radical Muslims.

The problem with fear is that it can lead to poor assessments of the real dangers Americans and the world face. Are not most of the refugees that a blanket ban on entry into the country would exclude themselves fleeing the same destabilized dangerous conditions that Americans are now so concerned about? Could not a terrorist just as easily enter the country posing as a non-Muslim European or even an American returning home to engage in a terrorist act? Indeed, while the husband in the San Bernardino attacks was a Muslim, he was also an American citizen, whom one would not normally exclude. 43

It would seem like the idea that religion should be the single factor deciding who enters and who is kept out of the United States would actually decrease the real level of security that the ban is supposed to create. Without denying that there is a real compelling interest for security and protection, all this goes to say that the measure being focused upon, namely being a member of the Islamic faith, is both over- and under-exclusive as a matter of law. It is over-exclusive in that it keeps out potentially thousands of non-terrorists fleeing persecution, and in that sense puts the country in the position of not living up to its own values and international legal commitments. At the same time, it is also under-inclusive in allowing those who too easily present themselves as non-Muslims or with some other seemingly legitimate connection to potentially slide under the vetting radar. A far better alternative would be to reform the measure by basing the determination on how likely the person is to actually present a threat to national security.

Such an alternative would not merely focus on any single measure, especially one as elusive as religion, but would consider a spectrum of activities and behaviors, such as past and present associations, as well as serious psychological assessments, 44

including the person’s commitment to finding a job and making a life for themselves and their family and living in a diverse community. It would also look at present behavior and ask immigrants to report what could be considered suspicious or potentially harmful criminal activity, regardless of where it occurs or by whom. Granted, this is not a full-proof way to ensure safety and security. There is no such thing as a full-proof guarantee of safety and security any more than employees going to work or teachers going to school can be absolutely certain that a threat will not make its way into their lives. But this is certainly a far more effective way of ensuring security than bringing into what is already a dangerous situation widespread fear, which would not only put the United States in the untenable position of violating its own values and legal commitments but encourage a general distrust of Muslims. Such a distrust would only serve to engender reciprocal fear and distrust from Muslim immigrants. At a time when the United States and its allies need to work together with both Muslims living in the U.S., as well as the nations of the Middle East, especially the Muslim nations, the focus must be to bring people together under the values and ideals established by our constitutional order and international commitments. We must not squander these opportunities by giving into irrational fears that will not provide us real security and, in the long run, will probably do more harm than good by making us complacent in the belief we have solved the security problem.

Conclusion

In this short Essay, I have tried to show—by pointing out how one misguided suggestion that would ban a whole group of people from entering the country based on their religious belief—that the challenges posed by global terrorism will not be resolved by breaking faith with those constitutional principles and international human rights values that have allowed us to develop as a nation and to protect the human dignity and freedom that we have all come to cherish. I have further tried to demonstrate that only by continuing on this path of developing those principles and values along with the institutions that can sustain them will we be able to ensure the future and avoid the darkness of fear that might otherwise inhibit our development as a free people. We stand at an epic crossroads with the other nations of the world over what kind of future we shall impart to the next generation. Hopefully, it will be one where the dignity of the individual matters constitutionally across the globe, so that people are judged by how they act, and not by what they believe.
 
Maybe you should go back to reread the order. Nothing about religion. Seven nations mentioned. There is currently no way to verify documents issued by a non-government.

Maybe you should.

Iran DOES have a central government- the TPTB just doesn't like it.
 
I think the problem is you guys don't know how to read a legal document. When it says "provided" it is modifying the first part of paragraph (b) to only "prioritized refugee claims" IF they are an "minority religion"

Pondering the 20/60 split in Iraq mentioned above... if the persecuted side is a majority, they need to man up and fix their own plight, where a minority would not be able to overcome a majority already in power.
Also, the claims to be prioritized in your quote are not on the basis of religion, but on that of persecution for the reason of religion.
 
Maybe you should go back to reread the order. Nothing about religion.

Seriously?

Maybe YOU should go back and reread it. It definitely does mention religion. And Trump has talked specifically about that provision, saying that the point of it is to give preference to Christians over Muslims.
 
Judge Nap on the subject:

The President and Immigration

By Andrew P. Napolitano

February 2, 2017

This past weekend, we all saw massive public outrage in major cities throughout the country. It was directed at the Jan. 27 issuance of an executive order, signed by President Donald Trump, addressing immigration. With the executive order, the president ordered the suspension of entry of all refugees to the United States for 120 days, as well as anyone from Syria for an indefinite period and anyone from Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen for 90 days.

The crowds of protesters, which included members of Congress, called the president a tyrant. The president argued that he was lawfully protecting the country from those who might facilitate terrorist attacks here. Can he legally do this?

Here is the back story.

The Constitution expressly gives Congress the power to regulate naturalization, which is the process of becoming an American citizen. It does not expressly give it the power to regulate immigration, which is the process of legally entering the country. From 1776 to 1882, Congress recognized this distinction by staying largely silent on immigration, and thus, anyone could come here from anywhere, with the only real regulation being for public health.

In 1882, Congress gave itself the power to regulate immigration, contending that although the Constitution was silent on the issue, the concept of nationhood gave Congress the ability to regulate the nation’s borders and thereby control who was permitted to enter from foreign countries and under what circumstances.

In response to economic competition from Asian immigrants in California — and in the midst of anti-Asian racial animus — Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, which limited the number of immigrants from China for 10 years. In 1892, Congress extended the law for another 10 years, and in 1902, Congress made the law permanent. In 1924, Congress passed the Johnson-Reed Act, which restricted entry into the United States through quotas with respect to national origins. The quotas were capped in 1929, reduced in 1943 and substantially expanded in 1965.

In 1952, Congress passed the Immigration and Nationality Act, which expressly authorized the president to suspend the immigration of any person, class of people or group of people into the United States for public health, public safety or national security reasons.

The courts have upheld this presidential power because under our system, immigration materially affects the nation’s foreign policy and foreign policy is constitutionally the domain of the president — with Congress’ role being limited to the senatorial confirmation of treaties and ambassadors and to authorization of money for the president to spend. Yet the courts have limited the president’s exercise of this power so that he cannot base it on First Amendment-protected liberties, such as the freedoms of speech, religion and association. So he cannot bar an immigrant because of the immigrant’s political views, religion or colleagues.

In 1979, President Jimmy Carter exercised this presidential power to bar anyone from Iran from entering the country until the hostage crisis was resolved. In 2011, President Barack Obama used this presidential power to bar anyone from Iraq from entering the country for six months.

Enter President Trump.

As a candidate, Trump promised that he would secure the nation’s borders from those whom he deems harmful to national security for limited periods of time — at least until he and those under him could determine a more accurate mechanism for separating the true refugees from the ones seeking entry for nefarious purposes. On his eighth day in office, he did just that.

The reaction was swift, loud and seemingly everywhere as foreign-born people, many with green cards and visas, were stopped and detained at the nation’s international airports last Saturday. Over the weekend, federal judges in New York City, Boston, Virginia and Seattle ruled that Trump’s order could not apply to green card holders or those who received valid State Department-issued visas based on the pre-executive order protocol.

To its credit, the government recognized that the language of the executive order needed to be clarified because green card holders, no matter the country of origin, have the same right of exit and entry as citizens. Moreover, the government cannot constitutionally give anyone a benefit — such as a visa — and then nullify the benefit because it changed the issuing standards afterward. So the Trump changes can be prospective only.

Where does this leave us?

Expect numerous challenges in Congress and in the courts to Trump’s order because, the challengers will argue, though its stated purpose was not to bar a religious group, its effect is largely to bar Muslims. For sure, the courts will address this. The purpose/effect distinction — which exists in many areas of the law, such as school desegregation, legislative apportionment and voting rights — has not been accepted by the courts against a president for a temporary immigration ban because the courts have often deferred to presidents on foreign policy.

Is the ban just?

Everyone knows we are a nation of immigrants. Three of my grandparents immigrated here as children. Most people recognize that all people have the natural right to travel, which means they can seek entry here; but the country has accepted the ideas that our borders are not open, that the welfare state here is not without financial limits and that in perilous times such as today, immigration is largely and legally in the hands of the president, whether one has voted for him or not.

Yet like all governmental powers, particularly those that often clash with natural rights when they are exercised, the power to regulate immigration must be exercised narrowly. Many reading this are here because someone left another country for the freedoms that are respected here. Those freedoms are natural to everyone and will always draw people here.

The government can only morally and constitutionally interfere with personal freedom for the most compelling of reasons and utilizing the least restrictive means. Is the government faithful to that well-recognized rule? We shall soon see.
 
Tired of arguing the point.
you make a comment about broad vs narrow exclusions. I ask you twice to explain. You can't. And now you throw in the towel in such a way as to pretend you are simply tired, rather than unable to explain or defend your position. There is no shame in changing your mind with more information or admitting you made a poor comment about narrow exclusions.
Not sure why you're arguing in the first place. I was asking questions to better understand positions of some (not only you as I've engaged others here too) so it's unfortunate to learn that this wasn't a discussion back and forth but rather you took this as a 'dig your heels in' style debate.

I will continue asking questions so you shouldn't feel the need to quote me in the future and I won't quote you. But know that my continued comments are to try and understand how and why people are fighting this EO so hard. I'm not sure I've ever seen an EO I've liked. I've made hard claims of unconstitutionality to many if not all other meaningful EO's but to me, this specific one doesn't fit into the same box. Trump has already made other EOs i label as unconstitutional and I look forward to being on the same side of those issues with you in the future.

+Rep to you as I appreciate all your time discussing this with me.
 
Judge Nap on the subject:

The judge is great. Thanks for posting.

He point out (you forgot to bold it), that this isn't a Muslim or religious ban.

It also sounds like every single congressional immigration law is and was unconstitutional.

A little pet-peeve of mine is when people say we are a nation of immigrants.... not so. We are a nation of citizens.


And now, where does that leave us? A president made an EO directing the executive branch how to carry out an unconstitutional congressional law:confused:
 
Responses in bold.

How do you cope with life? Instead of just disagreeing, anyone who differs from your specific views is a traitor or neocon or has some other moral failing. You behave like a degenerate.

I don't dance around things as they appear. These conversations are meaningless unless you're willing to be real. And so I keep it real.

If you claim to be loyal to the Constitution but then call for massive big government programs not just not authorized but specifically forbidden by the US Constitution (through the ban of the Tenth Amendment) then you are betraying the cause which you wish to support. That makes you a traitor. It also falls directly in line with neocon propaganda where they say all the right words about following the Constitution but then violate it as a matter of course.

There is nothing degenerate about this. Quite the opposite in fact. What is degenerate is this feel good snowflake culture that is so afraid of hurting the feelings of someone else that they allow for all kinds of immorality, hypocrisy, backbiting, and lies to slide by as if they were of equal value to the truth.




Clearly Ron Paul thinks the federal government should regulate immigration and that it is constitutional.

As I've argued elsewhere, Dr. Paul's arguments on regulating immigration are highly mixed. In some places he sounds as if he is willing to regulate immigration at a national level and in other places he talks about having absolute free trade by having borders so porous human capital can move through it at will.
 
Responses in bold.



As I've argued elsewhere, Dr. Paul's arguments on regulating immigration are highly mixed. In some places he sounds as if he is willing to regulate immigration at a national level and in other places he talks about having absolute free trade by having borders so porous human capital can move through it at will.

A truely free market allows for the free movement of both labor and capital.
 
A truely free market allows for the free movement of both labor and capital.

And to betray my own bias perhaps, I think that is what Ron Paul truly supports. In the primary elections he always talked about having the soldiers come home and "guard America's borders," which some took to meant he was saying he thought soldiers should prevent illegal immigration. But I'm not convinced he meant it that way as much as he wanted the nationalists in the Republican Party to think he meant it that way. He never actually said it and one could argue that the army would "guard America" simply by being back IN America. Remember he also talked about drastically cutting military spending, which would require the shrinking of the Army as a necessity.

Going along with this you have to pay attention to how he couches his language about "limiting" immigration. He has outright called for amnesty for illegals -giving them a green card but not citizenship, perhaps ever- here in the US, he openly derides any verification of citizenship for employment regulations like E-Verify, he opposes any sort of barrier like a wall, and his "solution" to so many illegal immigrants coming to America is to get rid of the welfare state.

http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/arc...how-to-solve-the-illegal-immigration-problem/

Do any of those sound like they're federal government actions to actually limit or prevent immigration in any way to you? Because they don't sound like that to me.

To go along with this, in "Swords Into Plowshares," Dr. Paul openly says that if you want true peace then you have to have completely free markets where all capital, even human capital, can freely move between nations without restriction. And if that doesn't sound like open borders then I don't know what does.
 
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