The "Original Sin" is unbiblical

[TER]

Re

Well first of all you mean Saul of Tarsus. And second of all, no he did not. It was teh later "Apostolic" Fathers, such as Augustine and Ireneaus that formulated the false idea of original sin.

St. Ireneus is most certainly an Apostolic Father. We should be careful not to sit here in judgment of them, as if we knew Jesus Christ better then they did, those who ate with Him and sat with Him and were fed to the lions. There is no need to put apostrophes around the word Apostolic. That is exactly who they were. Even history reveals it.

Have you ever read the works of St. Ireneus? This man was amongst the greatest of saints.

 

[TER]

God created you. You were created bad. But that’s not his fault, it’s yours. Nonsense.

When God made Creation, He made it and everything in it Good. This is clearly revealed in Genesis. This includes our bodies and our passions. Our flesh is not evil, it is a good gift from the Father, and part of who we are, trinitarian in spirit, soul, and body. In the image of Him Who has sanctified and restored our race, the Incarnate Word of God Jesus Christ.

Sin has entered the world, and He came to vanquish it, and render it powerless. And He did in His Holy Resurrection. Saving us fully, body, soul, and spirit.

 

[Sola_Fide]

All men are held accountable for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. People are born mortal and fallen, meaning they will inevitably sin because we are born imperfect. That is the heritage of being a child of Adam. It is through Christ that the natural man, the fallen man, is killed and the saint can be born. And this is what Paul is talking about. But never is one man held accountable for another man's sin. Each man is accountable only for his sins before God.

Well, that is the Mormon fantasy for sure. But the title of this thread is "Original sin is unbiblical".


Original sin is Biblical, which I just showed from Romans 5 (and 1st Corinthians 15):

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 NIV

For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

All who are in Adam are dead in sin, and death came through that one man. Just as all the ones in Christ will be made alive.

You can say you disagree all you want, but to say this is "unbiblical" or "created by Augustine" is, well, its just inaccurate. I will say this: every anti-Christian worldview will distort this key biblical understanding. From Roman Catholicism, which says the fall didn't affect the intellect...all the way to atheists who say we were born good (or neutral). And the cults like Mormonism are degrees in between. Every anti-Christian worldview will deny or distort this truth.

The reason that you do not understand the imputation of Adam's sin is the same reason you don't understand the imputation of Christ's righteousness. It's there in Romans 5.

 

[carclinic]

Paul of Tarsus is the one who came up with the idea of "Original Sin".

No, Jesus Christ revealed it to him by revelation.

Proof:
-I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (Gal 1:11-12)

Jesus testifies regarding original sin:
-Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone." (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19)

The Old Testament testifies regarding original sin:
-Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you. (Psalm 143:2)

Paul merely elaborates how:
-For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)


Without the assertion that ALL MEN STAND CONDEMNED AND WORTHY PUNISHMENT BEFORE GOD, there is no need for the cross, for Christians have faith that Christ took our sins and gave use His righteousness.

Any other belief system is works-based and unchristian.

 

[carclinic]

Originally Posted by robert68

God created you. You were created bad. But that’s not his fault, it’s yours. Nonsense.

This.

God created you in His image. You decide to be bad out of your own volition. That's your fault, not His. Exactly.

 

[carclinic]

Re

St. Ireneus is most certainly an Apostolic Father. We should be careful not to sit here in judgment of them, as if we knew Jesus Christ better then they did, those who ate with Him and sat with Him and were fed to the lions. There is no need to put apostrophes around the word Apostolic. That is exactly who they were. Even history reveals it.

Have you ever read the works of St. Ireneus? This man was amongst the greatest of saints.

I renaeus WAS NOT an apstolic father, but rather a church father. Irenaeus heard Polycarp teach when he was young, and Polycarp knew the apostle John.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Each man is accountable only for his sins before God.

And this is saddest part of this post. Because what it implies is that a man who is dead in sin will actually in some way be able to stand before a holy God and give an account of himself. This is another way in which Mormonism misunderstands the law and the gospel.

God's law is not something whereby men get to show how well they've been following it in the last day. God's law is a death sentence for man....because the law says:

Galatians 3:10-12 NIV

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith."

The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

The law says "cursed is he who does not do EVERYTHING in this law". The covenant of law is one of ABSOLUTE and PERFECT obedience (the person who does these things will live by them).

This is why Paul says "clearly" that no one will be declared righteous by their obedience to these laws. Elsewhere, the Bible says:

James 2:10 NIV

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

If you keep the entire law, but stumble at one point, its as if you broke all of it. No man is able to do this. No man will be able to stand before a holy God and "give an account of himself" as if he could offer his sin-tainted works to God. Man is DEAD. He is a lawbreaker. Man has no hope from himself and the law.


You, Pierzstyx, have no hope. If you lean on your works and your law-keeping to justify you before God, you will spend an eternity in Hell. I hope and pray that God convicts your soul of the inadequacy of any of your works or obedience. We are saved by Christ alone, and there is no salvation for men who add their obedience to the already perfect sacrifice of Christ, like the Judaizers did.

 

[TER]

Edit...

 

[robert68]

God created you in His image. You decide to be bad out of your own volition. That's your fault, not His. Exactly.

"Original Sin" is something everyone (except Adam, Eve and Jesus) is born with. Choice has nothing to do with it.

 

[Daveforliberty]

Well, it's important because Christ dying for the sins of His people would make no sense without the understanding of original sin.

It's irrelevant. By the time anyone can even understand the argument on this page, we have all sinned. On our own. Arguing these nuances of doctrine is one reason people avoid and even condemn Christianity. Rather, why don't we just love one another, live life by example and point to the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ?

I would suspect millions of Christians have lived, died, and gone to be with the Lord without ever hearing, thinking about, or discussing "Original sin."

 

[AFPVet]

One theory is that Adam and Eve gained the knowledge of good and evil and passed this knowledge down on a genetic level. It doesn't matter though... Yeshua died for the sins of the world and thus, we are 'saved' from spiritual death (separation from God).

 

[Eagles' Wings]

It's irrelevant. By the time anyone can even understand the argument on this page, we have all sinned. On our own. Arguing these nuances of doctrine is one reason people avoid and even condemn Christianity. Rather, why don't we just love one another, live life by example and point to the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ?

I would suspect millions of Christians have lived, died, and gone to be with the Lord without ever hearing, thinking about, or discussing "Original sin."

^^^^^THIS^^^^^^

 

[Eagles' Wings]

One theory is that Adam and Eve gained the knowledge of good and evil and passed this knowledge down on a genetic level. It doesn't matter though... Yeshua died for the sins of the world and thus, we are 'saved' from spiritual death (separation from God).

Amen, to this.

 

[carclinic]

"Original Sin" is something everyone (except Adam, Eve and Jesus) is born with. Choice has nothing to do with it.

No more than the choice of being hungry, horney, or any other human instinct. Look at all the evil mankind does. Our nature has nothing to do with choice. We only have the power to fight against our nature.

"If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it." (Genesis 4:7)

 

[TER]

Whoever may interested in learning what the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches about Original Sin, below is a brief and concise explanation from an article on Wikipedia:

In Eastern Orthodoxy, God created man perfect with free will and gave man a direction to follow. Man (Adam) and Woman (Eve) chose rather to disobey God by eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, thus changing the "perfect" mode of existence of man to the "flawed" mode of existence of man. This flawed nature and all that has come from it is a result of that "original sin". All humanity shares in the sin of Adam because like him, they are human. The union of humanity with divinity in Jesus Christ restored, in the Person of Christ, the mode of existence of humanity, so that those who are incorporated in Him may participate in this mode of existence, be saved from sin and death, and be united to God in deification. Original sin is cleansed in humans through baptism or, in the case of the Theotokos, the moment Christ took form within her.

This view differs from the Roman Catholic (Augustinian) doctrine of Original Sin in that man is not seen as inherently guilty of the sin of Adam.[6] According to the Orthodox, humanity inherited the consequences of that sin, not the guilt. The difference stems from Augustine's interpretation of a Latin translation of Romans 5:12 to mean that through Adam all men sinned, whereas the Orthodox reading in Greek interpret it as meaning that all of humanity sins as part of the inheritance of flawed nature from Adam. The Orthodox Church does not teach that all are born deserving to go to hell, and Protestant doctrines such as Predeterminism that derive from the Augustinian understanding of original sin are not a part of Orthodox belief.

 

[robert68]

No more than the choice of being hungry, horney, or any other human instinct. Look at all the evil mankind does. Our nature has nothing to do with choice. We only have the power to fight against our nature.

"If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it." (Genesis 4:7)

First you say "we decide to be bad". Now you say it's not our choice, it's "our nature". I don't think there's disagreement that "Original Sin" is something everyone (except possibly "Jesus") is born with.

 

[TER]

I don't think there's disagreement that "Original Sin" is something everyone (except possibly "Jesus") is born with.

Of course Robert, you are stating the truth. That is, to be a Christian, one must humble themselves and accept who they are, humans born in fallen flesh and with corruptible passions, sinners choosing their own selfish will above the will of God.

We do not however bear the guilt of the sin of Adam and Eve. This is not the understanding of the Church from the beginning. This was instead a misunderstanding of St. Augustine, an understandable misread of a Latin translation which read differently from the original Greek. The Greek Fathers however from the beginnings plainly spoke that we are not born with guilt and responsible for the sinful actions of others, including our forebearers Adam and Eve.

In our humility however we see that we are in the end just like all people, born with ancestral sin, in the inherited fallingness of our human nature, a nature corrupted and corruptible and which has tarnished and defaced our entire being. The unfortunate consequence of sin. This is why we must become baptized with water as well as by the Holy Spirit. By this Holy Mystery of the Church, our complete trinitarian being, body, soul and spirit, is reborn and is restored and healed and glorified by the power and life-saving work of the Incarnate Word of God the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. For He has redeemed our race and has shown us the way to divine communion with God for He is the Way. He is the Truth. He is the Light of the world. He is our salvation. And in imitation of Him and to fulfill all righteousness, we too must become baptized in water in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and be cleansed from our slavery to sin in order to partake in the divine nature of God as St. Paul taught, and to put on Christ.

The Holy Tradition of Baptism was initiated by the Holy Forerunner of Christ John the Baptist, the greatest ascetic monk the world has ever known, and established and fulfilled by the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the waters of the Jordan. On that day, when the Holy Trinity was first clearly revealed to Israel (and indeed, the world!), in the Holy Theophany which occurred when our Lord was baptized. Below is an icon of this event,

In this simple and pure revelation of the Holy Trinity, we see how we too find cleansing and restoration through the Incarnate Word of God Jesus Christ, the Son of God revealed by the Father, Who was baptized and instructed His disciples to baptize in water and Spirit in the name of the Holy Trinity, and they have not stopped doing so for the last 2000 consecutive years, in dangerous times and through turbulent days, in order to heed His call to announce the Good News to all nations so that they too can be healed and fulfilled by the grace of our merciful and loving God Who saves us. This is precisely the Great Commission of Christ, and the work has persisted nonstop since the day He commissioned it in the upper room in Jerusalem.

And first of all, before we can even understand the will of God we must follow Christ and become as He, humble and poor in spirit, with meekness and with forgiveness towards our enemies, and in love and mercy for all children of God. For to such is the Kingdom of Heaven and to those is the blessedness of the peace and comfort and joy of God. This is the love we struggle for in this world, in faithful assurance of the treasures promised by Christ Who has overcome the world.

 

[jmdrake]

Re

St. Ireneus is most certainly an Apostolic Father. We should be careful not to sit here in judgment of them, as if we knew Jesus Christ better then they did, those who ate with Him and sat with Him and were fed to the lions. There is no need to put apostrophes around the word Apostolic. That is exactly who they were. Even history reveals it.

Have you ever read the works of St. Ireneus? This man was amongst the greatest of saints.

Irenaeus was born during the first half of the 2nd century (the exact date is disputed: between the years 115 and 125 according to some, or 130 and 142 according to others), Irenaeus is thought to have been a Greek from Polycarp's hometown of Smyrna in Asia Minor, now İzmir, Turkey. Unlike many of his contemporaries, he was brought up in a Christian family rather than converting as an adult.

How did Irenaeus "eat with Jesus and sit with Jesus" when he wasn't born until long after Jesus had ascended to heaven?

 

[jmdrake]

All men are held accountable for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. People are born mortal and fallen, meaning they will inevitably sin because we are born imperfect. That is the heritage of being a child of Adam. It is through Christ that the natural man, the fallen man, is killed and the saint can be born. And this is what Paul is talking about. But never is one man held accountable for another man's sin. Each man is accountable only for his sins before God.

Romans 5:12-13...important parts in bold.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Now how to reconcile Romans 5:13 which clearly says sin isn't imputed where there is no law to Romans 5:12 which talks about "all have sinned"? Well the most obvious answer is everyone capable of understanding what Paul is writing has already sinned. That doesn't mean two day old baby has sinned. But "all means all" except for when certain people decide it doesn't mean all.

 

[TER]

Irenaeus was born during the first half of the 2nd century (the exact date is disputed: between the years 115 and 125 according to some, or 130 and 142 according to others), Irenaeus is thought to have been a Greek from Polycarp's hometown of Smyrna in Asia Minor, now İzmir, Turkey. Unlike many of his contemporaries, he was brought up in a Christian family rather than converting as an adult.

How did Irenaeus "eat with Jesus and sit with Jesus" when he wasn't born until long after Jesus had ascended to heaven?

He did not physically sit and eat with Jesus as did the Apostles who came just before him, but he did teach and maintain the Apostolic faith of those who actually did, including physically partaking of the Holy Eucharist. The point remains that we should be careful to not think we somehow know better about the faith of Christ 2000 years removed then those who were taught by the Apostolic Fathers.