The "Original Sin" is unbiblical

Everyone who disagrees with you is an Arminian in your book? Even Islamists I bet.

Islamists are synergists. Like all false religions, Islam teaches that men are saved by a mixture of grace and works.



All synergists are not Arminianists and all monergists are not Calvinists.
Partly correct. All Arminians are synergists, but not all synergists are Arminians. All non-Calvinists are synergists.

There are even some "Calvinists" who are synergists (the ones who teach that sanctification is a mixture of man's work and the spirit's works), but I wouldn't necessarily call them consistent Calvinists.

There are other "Calvinists" who are Lordship salvationists, and they teach that faith is something other than belief (it is "faithfulness" they say...which is just another word for man's effort). I wouldn't call these men consistent Calvinists either.





Your understanding of Romans 5 requires you to ignore verses 13, 14.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Sin isn't imputed where there is no law. A toddler can't understand the law. Therefor no sin is imputed to him. Yes all who are old enough to understand what Paul is saying in Romans 12 have sinned by that point. Even though who haven't read the written law have sinned because aspects of the law have been revealed to them through nature. But again, that excludes toddlers.

No. This verse has nothing to do with "toddlers" or people who "don't understand the law". "Sin is not imputed where there is no law, nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses" is describing a time period (the period between Adam and Moses).

So even at the time between Adam and Moses, before the law was given to make our sin increase, sin's effect of death reigned over man because Adam acted as man's federal head when he sinned. When Adam sinned, all sinned. When Adam fell, all fell.

But since the time of Moses and until the end of time, the law utterly convicts every man, woman, and toddler. The curse of the law is on every man in Adam. That means every person who is born. Even before Moses, men still died as a result of Adam's sin, but now that the law has been given, men are convicted of every sin and every mouth is silenced, as Paul says in Romans 3.






You can't have it both ways on the meaning of the word "all". You can't say "all" just means "all kinds of people" when the Bible says "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" and then turn around and say "all" includes "everyone from the moment of conception".

"All" is defined by the context in which it is used. The context in which Paul is using the word "all" in Romans 5 is "all the men in Adam" and "all the men in Christ". This is used in a different sense than the verse in Timothy.

All the men in Adam have Adam's sin imputed to them and they die as a result. All the men in Christ, the Second Adam, have Christ's righteousness imputed to them and they live.
 
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As explained in my post above #97, in Greek it says "because of death all have sinned."

Your post didn't explain that, it just asserted it without giving a reason.

But it's not, "because of death all have sinned." It's "death spread to all men because all sinned." Eph ho doesn't mean "because of which," it means "because."

Compare this to 2 Corinthians 5:4, where the same phrase is used. It means, "For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed," not "we groan and are burdened, because of which we do not wish to be unclothed...."

If you have access to any grammars of New Testament Greek, they should discuss this idiom.
 
Islamists are synergists. Like all false religions, Islam teaches that men are saved by a mixture of grace and works.

Not only does Islam teach it, but so do all the Abrahamic faiths, including Christianity. If you stopped fixating on a few verses which you interpret incorrectly with respect to the Church from the beginning and stopped ignoring other verses (including the very parables and teachings of Christ), you would see that we, as stewards of Christ, have an important role in our salvation, even as it is Christ Who saves us ultimately.
 
Your post didn't explain that, it just asserted it without giving a reason.

But it's not, "because of death all have sinned." It's "death spread to all men because all sinned." Eph ho doesn't mean "because of which," it means "because."

Compare this to 2 Corinthians 5:4, where the same phrase is used. It means, "For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed," not "we groan and are burdened, because of which we do not wish to be unclothed...."

If you have access to any grammars of New Testament Greek, they should discuss this idiom.

Your translation is incorrect, and I say this as someone's whose first language was Greek.
 
Your translation is incorrect, and I say this as someone's whose first language was Greek.

Interesting. Perhaps you are letting your familiarity with Modern Greek influence your interpretation of a Koine idiom.

Here are a few questions:
1) Do you interpret the eph ho in 2 Corinthians 5:4 the same way you do for Romans 5:12?
2) Can you find any English translations of the Greek of Romans 5:12 that were made by scholars of the Greek of that period that render Romans 5:12 the way you do?
3) In your interpretation, how does the second half of Romans 5:12 complete the thought of the first half?

Notice that the two halves are connected by houtos (thus, so).

1st half: "Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin [not sin through death]."
"Thus"
2nd half: "death spread to all men [eph ho] all sinned."

Furthermore, the entire remainder of Romans 5:12-21 is about how Adam's sin leads to the death of all, not how their death results in them sinning. And the point of this is to compare how one man (Adam) making many sinners is analogous to one man (Jesus) making many righteous. It is not my own disobedience that made me a sinner, it was Adam's. And it is not my own obedience that makes me righteous, it is Christ's.
 
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Not only does Islam teach it, but so do all the Abrahamic faiths, including Christianity. If you stopped fixating on a few verses which you interpret incorrectly with respect to the Church from the beginning and stopped ignoring other verses (including the very parables and teachings of Christ), you would see that we, as stewards of Christ, have an important role in our salvation, even as it is Christ Who saves us ultimately.

TER, you know I respect you very much. This is why I plead with you with to throw away your traditions and look solely to the Word of God.

A man is not saved by anything he does. A man is saved before he was born or before the world was created:

2 Timothy 1:9 NIV

He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,


Titus 3:5-7 NIV

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 9:11-16

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,


“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Romans 3:28

For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 4:4-6

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:


The only way to read the Scriptures and come away with the understanding that works are involved in our salvation is to read the Scriptures with the blinders of man-made traditions on. We are saved by sola gratia.
 
TER, you know I respect you very much. This is why I plead with you with to throw away your traditions and look solely to the Word of God.

The Word of God is not a book of pages but Jesus Christ. But if you wish to make the Bible into a god, then why do you ignore verses and traditions which are in fact described within it?
 
Interesting. Perhaps you are letting your familiarity with Modern Greek influence your interpretation of a Koine idiom.


:) and perhaps your indoctrination of western interpretations of the Holy Scriptures influence your interpretation of it?

Here are a few questions:
1) Do you interpret the eph ho in 2 Corinthians 5:4 the same way you do for Romans 5:12?
2) Can you find any English translations of the Greek of Romans 5:12 that were made by scholars of the Greek of that period that render Romans 5:12 the way you do?
3) In your interpretation, how does the second half of Romans 5:12 complete the thought of the first half?

Notice that the two halves are connected by houtos (thus, so).

1st half: "Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin [not sin through death]."
"Thus"
2nd half: "death spread to all men [eph ho] all sinned."

Furthermore, the entire remainder of Romans 5:12-21 is about how Adam's sin leads to the death of all, not how their death results in them sinning. And the point of this is to compare how one man (Adam) making many sinners is analogous to one man (Jesus) making many righteous. It is not my own disobedience that made me a sinner, it was Adam's. And it is not my own obedience that makes me righteous, it is Christ's.

But you are using the western translation, whereas the Greek understanding is what I have listed now several times, that the phrase "eph ho" modifies the previous word Thanatos (death), and thus is read as I have listed above in post 97, namely that "because of which (death) all have sinned". I'm sorry I can't make it any clearer for you.

I will try to find specific examples in the writings of the earliest Church writers to demonstrate that this was the understanding of this phrase in the eastern Church.
 
:) and perhaps your indoctrination of western interpretations of the Holy Scriptures influence your interpretation of it?



But you are using the western translation, whereas the Greek understanding is what I have listed now several times, that the phrase "eph ho" modifies the previous word Thanatos (death), and thus is read as I have listed above in post 97, namely that "because of which (death) all have sinned". I'm sorry I can't make it any clearer for you.

I will try to find specific examples in the writings of the earliest Church writers to demonstrate that this was the understanding of this phrase in the eastern Church.

No, I am translating the Greek into English. So do all major English versions of the New Testament, which, as far as I can tell, all translate "eph ho" as "because" or "for that."

Can you answer my 3 questions?

The reason you can't make it clearer is that your view is not based on any actual reasons. It's just an assertion. You call it the "Greek understanding," not because it's the understanding based on the Greek words used, but because it's the understanding that the Greek Orthodox impose on the text in order to get around admitting that Paul taught something they don't accept.
 
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This is a long chapter but immensly informative and accurate impartial explanation of the approach to the concept of Orginal Sin of the Eastern Church. It comes from this treatise called "Original Sin and Ancestral Sin- Comparative Doctrines" by James J. DeFrancisco, Ph.D.. I highly recommend everyone read it, as it clearly points out the distinctions between the the major faiths in regards to this important topic, including what the Jews, Muslims, and various denomination understand as Original Sine. I have pasted the chapter pertaining to the Eastern Orthodox Church below:

The Ancestral Sin Approach of the Orthodox Fathers

As widespread as the term original sin is today, it was unknown in both the
Eastern and Western Church until Augustine (c. 354-430). The concept of original sin
may have arisen in the writings of Tertullian, but the expression seems to have first
appeared in Augustine’s writings. Prior to Augustine, theologians used different
terminology indicating a contrasting way of thinking about the fall, its effects, and
God’s response to it. The phrase the Greek Fathers used to describe the fall that took
place in the Garden was ancestral sin.

It is suggested by those in the Orthodox Church that the doctrine of ancestral
sin naturally leads to a focus on human death and Divine compassion as the
inheritance from Adam, while the doctrine of original sin shifts the center of attention
to human guilt and Divine wrath.xxii It is further posited by Hughes that the approach
of the ancient church points to a more therapeutic than juridical approach to pastoral
care and counseling.

According to Hughes, love is the heart and soul of the theology of the early
Church Fathers and of the Orthodox Church. He states that, “The Fathers of the
Church—East and West—in the early centuries shared the same perspective: humanity
longs for liberation from the tyranny of death, sin, corruption and the devil which is
only possible through the Life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
Ancestral sin (Greek: amartema) refers to an individual act of sin. The Eastern
Church Fathers assigned full responsibility for the sin in the Garden to Adam and Eve
alone. The word amartia is the more familiar term for sin which literally means
“missing the mark” and is used to refer to the condition common to all humanity.

The Eastern Church never speaks of guilt being passed from Adam and Eve to their
progeny, as did Augustine and the Western Church. Instead, the position of the
Eastern Church is that each person bears the guilt of his or her own sin.

Relative to the Eastern view, the question becomes, “What then is the
inheritance of humanity from Adam and Eve if it is not guilt?” The Orthodox Fathers
uniformly answer with the word: death. As Romanides writes, “Man is born with
the parasitic power of death within him.” Cyril of Alexandria teaches that our
human nature became “diseased…through the sin of one”. Therefore, for the
Orthodox fathers, it is not guilt that is passed on but, rather it is a condition, a disease
that results in death.

The freedom to obey or disobey belonged to our first parents, “For God made
man free and sovereign”. Adam and Eve failed to obey the commandment not to
eat from the forbidden tree – the tree of knowledge of good and evil - thus rejecting
God’s commands and their potential to manifest the fullness of human existence.
Because of this, in the Eastern view, death and corruption began to take over the
creation. “Sin reigned through death.” In this view death and corruption do not
originate with God and He didn’t create or intend for death and corruption to enter into
the world. In this view, God cannot be the Author of evil. Death is the natural result
of turning aside from God.

Adam and Eve were overcome with the same temptation that afflicts all
humanity: the desire to be independent and exercise self will, to realize the fullness of
human existence without God. According to the Orthodox fathers sin is not a
violation of an impersonal law or code of behavior; it is outright rejection of the life
offered by God. This higher level of life is the mark, the missing of which is
what the word amartia refers. Fallen human life is above all else the failure to realize
the God-given potential of human existence, which is, as Peter writes, to “become
partakers of the divine nature”.

In Orthodox thought God did not threaten Adam and Eve with punishment. He
was not angered or offended by their sin. Rather, He was moved to compassion.
The expulsion from the Garden and from the Tree of Life was an act of love and not
vengeance so that humanity would not “become immortal in sin”.
The Fall could not destroy the image of God in humanity. This great gift given
by God to humanity remained intact, but damaged. Origen described this as the
image buried as if in a well choked with debris. While the work of salvation
was accomplished by God through Jesus Christ the removal of this debris hiding the
image in humanity calls for free and voluntary cooperation. Paul uses the word
synergy, or “co-workers”, to describe the cooperation between Divine Grace
and human freedom. For the Orthodox Fathers this means asceticism (prayer, fasting,
charity and keeping vigil) developed from Paul’s image of the spiritual athlete.
This is also the working out of salvation “with fear and trembling” spoken of by Paul.
Paul and Jesus describe salvation as a process involving faith, freedom and
personal effort to fulfill the commandment of Christ to “love the Lord your God with
all your heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself”.

The Orthodox use the term "ancestral sin" in relation to the disobedience of
Adam and Eve. The Orthodox understanding on this matter is quite different from the
"west" in its doctrine of "original sin."

There are two major issues presented by these three texts related to ancestral sin
and salvation: Genesis 3:1-24, Roman 6:22-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, 51-58
when seen in conjunction:

(1) The relationship between sin and death. Here we can identify:
Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord."
1Corinthians 15:56: The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

(2) The Orthodox doctrine of salvation as it pertains to the cross and the
resurrection of Christ.

It begins with the Garden of Eden. Since in the Greek this is paradeisoz
(Paradise) we may rightly understand the Garden and indeed Heaven as a real place in
space-time but removed from the fallen domain of this world. In this dimension, our
first parents communed with the world, each other and God. The Fathers (Theophilus
of Antioch, Ephraim the Syrian, Hilary of Poitiers, Maximus the Confessor), insist that
our first parents were created neither mortal nor immortal. Until the point of his
disobedience Adam was sinless but not perfect and able to sin. He was not immortal
but capable of achieving immortality through obedience. This is most important for
what comes afterward and especially as we compare the doctrine of our original state
from the perspective of Holy Scripture with what later emerged in the post-Orthodox
West.

From this starting point Adam was like a child, fully capable of growing up in
obedience to his Heavenly Father and achieving immortality. He ate the fruit from the
tree of the knowledge of good and evil in disobedience to God’s Word and suffered
death as a result.

Irenaeus and the Fathers generally do not see death as a divine punishment for
the disobedience of our first parents. This distortion arose later in the West under the
influence of Augustine. The Fathers interpret the consequences of the Fall as
something we brought on ourselves when we distanced ourselves from God. In this
view, God still walks in the Garden. It is we who hide and shamefully cover our
nakedness. Likewise, the expulsion of Adam and Eve from Paradise and the angel
standing guard with the flaming sword is not an act of divine retribution but a
compassionate and merciful provision lest we eat of the second tree, the Tree of Life,
and die eternally. The fruit of this tree, if we had eaten it, would have condemned us
forever.

John Chrysostom says:

"Partaking of the tree, the man and woman became liable to death and subject to
the future needs of the body. Adam was no longer permitted to remain in the
Garden, and was bidden to leave, a move by which God showed His love for him
… he had become mortal, and lest he presume to eat further from the tree which
promised an endless life of continuous sinning, he was expelled from the Garden
as a mark of divine solicitude, not of necessity."

Paul taught in the context of the resurrection as the remedy for sin and death, ("O
death where is thy sting …?"), "the sting of death is sin." [1 Corinthians 15:55-56]

Cyril of Alexandria wrote:

"Adam had heard: ‘Earth thou art and to the earth shalt thou return,’ and from
being incorruptible he became corruptible and was made subject to the bonds of
death. But since he produced children after falling into this state, we his
descendents are corruptible coming from a corruptible source. Thus it is that we
are heirs of Adam’s curse."
 
Furthermore, the entire remainder of Romans 5:12-21 is about how Adam's sin leads to the death of all, not how their death results in them sinning. And the point of this is to compare how one man (Adam) making many sinners is analogous to one man (Jesus) making many righteous. It is not my own disobedience that made me a sinner, it was Adam's. And it is not my own obedience that makes me righteous, it is Christ's.

Well said. This is simply the only consistent way to read Romans 5.
 
This is a long chapter but immensly informative and accurate impartial explanation of the approach to the concept of Orginal Sin of the Eastern Church.

That is informative about the view of the Eastern Church. Notice that it also bears no resemblance to what Paul teaches in Romans 5:12-21.

The view that article espouses was first devised by Irenaeus. I prefer to go back to the view of the earlier apostolic Church, rather than to adopt that later corruption of it.
 
That is informative about the view of the Eastern Church. Notice that it also bears no resemblance to what Paul teaches in Romans 5:12-21.

:) So you say

What you are really saying is 'notice that is also bears no resemblance to what I understand Paul teaches in Romans 5:12-21. ;)
 
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The view that article espouses was first devised by Irenaeus. I prefer to go back to the view of the earlier apostolic Church, rather than to adopt that later corruption of it.

Tell me, did this earlier apostolic Church you prefer to go back to believe in the grace filled tradition of holy ordination? Did they worship in communion and partake of the Body and Blood of Christ? Did they lack bishops and priests and deacons? Which early apostolic Church are you referring to?
 
Tell me, did this earlier apostolic Church you prefer to go back to believe in the grace filled tradition of holy ordination? Did they worship in communion and partake of the Body and Blood of Christ? Did they lack bishops and priests and deacons? Which early apostolic Church are you referring to?

I'm referring to the one the apostles themselves belonged to that we can read about in the New Testament.

Yes, they worshiped in communion. They did this in local house churches without the need of any priests or bishops present to make it valid. They did not have priests, except the Jewish ones in the Temple in Jerusalem. They did have bishops. But these were the same thing as what they also called elders, of which there were many in the churches of each city, and should not be confused with what developed later of having a single bishop over a whole city.
 
The reason you can't make it clearer is that your view is not based on any actual reasons. It's just an assertion. You call it the "Greek understanding," not because it's the understanding based on the Greek words used, but because it's the understanding that the Greek Orthodox impose on the text in order to get around admitting that Paul taught something they don't accept.

I see you have edited your previous post. Allow me to respond.

I'm sorry, but history is against you in this regard. The understanding of the Eastern Orthodox is in accordance to the faith of the Fathers of the Church as handed down to them initially by the Apostles. The Orthodox Church does not ignore the Holy Scriptures, for it was through the writings of men within this Church which wrote, collected, compiled and canonized these writings which you now use (and misuse). What YOU are doing is picking and choosing and applying your own mistranslations and misinterpretations in order to justify views which have no historical precedence in the entire history of the Church and ignore other teachings which you don't like. How convenient! And then you wish to say that you have a better understanding of the original Greek then the very Greek Fathers of the Church of the first 3 centuries! How rich!
 
:) So you say

What you are really saying is 'notice that is also bears no resemblance to what I understand Paul teaches in Romans 5:12-21. ;)

I think any casual observer can read it and notice that nowhere in it does the author mention Romans 5:12-21, nor say anything resembling what is in Romans 5:12-21. It is the Eastern view, yes. But it is not a view that comes from the Greek text of what Paul wrote. It comes from later theological developments.

This is where I differ from you. You follow novel teachings. I go back to the older traditions.
 
I see you have edited your previous post. Allow me to respond.

I'm sorry, but history is against you in this regard. The understanding of the Eastern Orthodox is in accordance to the faith of the Fathers of the Church as handed down to them initially by the Apostles. The Orthodox Church does not ignore the Holy Scriptures, for it was through the writings of men within this Church which wrote, collected, compiled and canonized these writings which you now use (and misuse). What YOU are doing is picking and choosing and applying your own mistranslations and misinterpretations in order to justify views which have no historical precedence in the entire history of the Church and ignore other teachings which you don't like. How convenient! And then you wish to say that you have a better understanding of the original Greek then the very Greek Fathers of the Church of the first 3 centuries! How rich!

It's not a matter of history. We all have access to Romans 5:12-21, and those of us who can read the Greek have access to it in the Greek. It says what it says. Later history doesn't change it. The fathers who took the view you presented in that article that you copied and pasted didn't develop their view of sin and death from Romans 5:12-21. They, like you, didn't like what Romans 5:12-21 said, so they imposed something different on it that bears no resemblance. It has nothing to do with their knowledge of Greek. It has to do with their unwillingness to believe in alien guilt and alien righteousness.

I notice you still have not answered my 3 questions.

And the writings of the New Testament were all written, collected, copied, and canon in the first century by the apostolic Church, and not only by later churches that began to look like what you would recognize as the Orthodox Church.

And when you say that I claim to understand Greek better than the fathers of the early church, I certainly do not. And I must point out that in all you've said about their view of sin and death, you have never actually pointed to any discussion by them of the Greek text of Romans 5:12, which you claim to be interpreting.
 
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I'm referring to the one the apostles themselves belonged to that we can read about in the New Testament.

Yes, they worshiped in communion. They did this in local house churches without the need of any priests or bishops present to make it valid. They did not have priests, except the Jewish ones in the Temple in Jerusalem. They did have bishops. But these were the same thing as what they also called elders, of which there were many in the churches of each city, and should not be confused with what developed later of having a single bishop over a whole city.

You have just revealed you ignorance in topics related to the structure and worship of the early Church. You should study more about the faith of the early Christians before you make unfounded assumptions as you have above.
 
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