The "Movement" is a Chimera

Taxation is Theft

  • True

    Votes: 133 87.5%
  • False

    Votes: 19 12.5%

  • Total voters
    152
The true movement is toward freedom. People who claim to be "Social Libertarians" and support universal health care, people who think Dennis Kuchinich would be a good VP even though he supports socialistic ideals... if this group is made up largely of people with those beliefs, then we are doomed to be nothing more than Republicrats in the end.

My perspective is that there are a LOT of folks here that support those views, and if that's true, we're really just rallying around the good doctor, not forging a movement toward freedom that will outlast us all.

That is the ideological failure that I fear... that people really don't realize what freedom is.

Not everyone who supports RP is a hard-core libertarian like we are. There are many who support RP and like Kucinich, not because DK is 'libertarian' but because he is constitutionalist.

Do not think that merely because RP attracts *both* libertarians and constitutionalists (of which I happen to be both) means that he *shouldn't* attract liberal constitutionalists (ie Kucinich) and conservative constitutionalists (ie Gingritch) as well as Libertarians.

The core of RP's support indeed comes from libertarians, while also drawing constitutionalists from both sides of the L-R spectrum. Now, while the Constitution is a very libertarian document, do not think that just because someone is a constitutionalist automatically implies that they are libertarian.

Myself, I have always been a constitutionalist libertarian, I voted 'yes' that taxation is theft. I would caveat that to say that some taxations are not -- excise tax, use tax, some tariffs, and so on; while income and property taxes are obviously and obscenely theft.

Point being, while RP is a huge bonus for the Liberty movement, he also draws constitutionalists from without the liberty movement. This can only be a good thing. say 70% of RP supporters are libertarian minded, with 15% leftist constitutionalists, and 15% rightist constitutionalists.

In no way, shape, or form can that be a 'bad thing' for the liberty movement. IMHO
 
I am a libertarian but I am not 100% sure that it is pure libertarianism is the best form of government, that is why I like the federated model espoused by the Constitution which gives each region the freedom to decide for itself what kind of government to form, and gives people the freedom to relocate to any State in the Union they want.
 
WOW!!! I'm guessing that you are not a supporter of Liberty.

You are digging yourself deeper and destroying your credibility with every comment.

I don't need to type another word on the subject; your last post says all we need to know.

So, this is the last I will Type on THAT subject as it has been exhausted to death. You are either disingenuous or really ignorant. I can't force you out of your ignorance of the subject. So it serves no purpose to continue.

------------------------------------------------

All that said. It Begs the question: Why are you a Dr. Paul Supporter??

You don't seem to agree with him - or is it a single issue?? Because that gets back to the original "Chimera" issue.

You do know, of course, that Dr. Paul is a Libertarian don't you?? You do know that he ran for President in 1988, don't you?? You do know that Dr. Paul disagrees with every last word that you have typed??

You're screwing up yet again. When did Dr. Paul advocate zero taxation? Zero taxation equates to Liberty? Bring on the faulty premises.
You probably also mistakenly believe that zero taxation on your wealth will result in your being wealthier. Since you can't even grasp basic civics concepts, I won't even attempt to get into economics with you.
We figured out as a species the benefits of cooperation back in hunter-gatherer times. What you advocate is a devolution to pre-prehistory. Fine. If you need help moving into that bubble of yours, give a shout-out, I'll be the first in line to give you a hand.
Otherwise I'm done with you, you've been in checkmate, and you're a total waste of my time.
 
You're screwing up yet again. When did Dr. Paul advocate zero taxation? Zero taxation equates to Liberty? Bring on the faulty premises.
You probably also mistakenly believe that zero taxation on your wealth will result in your being wealthier. Since you can't even grasp basic civics concepts, I won't even attempt to get into economics with you.
We figured out as a species the benefits of cooperation back in hunter-gatherer times. What you advocate is a devolution to pre-prehistory. Fine. If you need help moving into that bubble of yours, give a shout-out, I'll be the first in line to give you a hand.
Otherwise I'm done with you, you've been in checkmate, and you're a total waste of my time.


dig my new sig
 
Hehe.
On Friday a bunch of guys are coming in a truck to haul away all the refuse on my block, and without my explicit consent. Thank you taxes! Maybe I'll make a copy of your posts and add them to the pile. Or would I need your consent for that?
Put that in your sig and smoke it.
 
I can't vote in your poll, because I believe it is over-simplified. The income tax, as it is currently applied to individuals, is blatantly unconstitutional and is government sanctioned theft of our wages and labor. As such it is also a form of slavery. However, not all forms of taxation fit this definition. I hope that answers your question.
 
One point I want to stress, is that there are many forms of legal taxation, which are even acceptable under libertarian philosophies. Any tax that one can personally and legally avoid without undue hardship conforms with libertarian philosophies -- for instance an interstate commerce tax, tariffs, excises, user fees etc. Then, any tax that is apportioned is legal by the Constitution.

The argument against income and property taxes are much deeper than legality and amounts. Income tax assumes that the government owns the individual and their product, and only allows the individual to 'produce' at their permission. Property tax assumes that the government owns all property and only allows the individual to hold property at their permission.

Sales tax is more of a grey area, libertarian-wise. Something like gasoline tax paying for roads, a(n albeit weak) case can be made that "commerce" is a line of communication upon which the government has authority, due to the use of Treasury notes to affect said commerce. This assumes that the government has a stake of ownership in all commercial transaction, (which is why it's grey) but a valid argument can be made that a federal government DOES have a stake in the general notion of 'commercial transaction' simply because there is a "gross domestic product" supported by the US Treasury system. The use of Treasury notes in order to produce commercial transactions, is what gives legal claim to a stake here, and can be avoided by barter outside of US Treasury notes. Also, sales tax can be avoided, and the government can be de-funded, simply by the people choosing not to buy things commercially (ie - barter).

If stuck with a sales tax, my "perfect world" would be to employ something somewhat radical -- tax not sales themselves, but the use of treasury notes specifically. Of curse, this would require a radical change in the US Treasury department. First of all, money would have to be taken out of the Federal Reserve and returned to the US Treasury. Somehow, tax would have to be distinguished between coinage, paper, and electronic transactions. All of this of course, would be a bloody nightmare to even attempt to implement; but would permit an "opt-out" system without restricting commerce. If, for instance, coinage were based on precious metal value and taxed at zero percent of transaction, electronic transactions were based on precious metal holdings and taxed at 7%, and paper money (based on precious metal certification holdings) taxed at 14%, for instance. The more heavily you rely on the governments "services" the higher the tax you pay. I'm not saying that's a 'good' system (I just invented it on the fly as I typed) but it would be a 'sales tax' that managed to dovetail with libertarian principles...especially if the coinage based on precious metals minted coins that reached as high as $100 for instance. Thus people could choose to use all coins, or all paper. Paper would be easier to trade in, but it puts a higher burden on the Treasury.
 
On what principled basis do you declare that all taxation is theft?

God ordained taxation to finance the Old Testament theocratic state.

God through the Holy Spirit enforced collectivist resource distribution in the early apostolic church.

And the Constitution authorizes two forms of taxation.

Congressman Ron Paul is against unconstitutional taxation, not all taxation.
 
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Thank You

I voted 'yes' that taxation is theft. I would caveat that to say that some taxations are not -- excise tax, use tax, some tariffs, and so on; while income and property taxes are obviously and obscenely theft.

Confiscatory Property taxes is one that makes my blood boil. The mindset that any government entity can levy what is essentially 'Rent', to us, to allow us to have controll over what we own is ludicrous. I damn our parents for letting government accumilate this much power.
 
The true movement is toward freedom. People who claim to be "Social Libertarians" and support universal health care, people who think Dennis Kuchinich would be a good VP even though he supports socialistic ideals... if this group is made up largely of people with those beliefs, then we are doomed to be nothing more than Republicrats in the end.

My perspective is that there are a LOT of folks here that support those views, and if that's true, we're really just rallying around the good doctor, not forging a movement toward freedom that will outlast us all.

That is the ideological failure that I fear... that people really don't realize what freedom is.

Most of the RP supporters I've met at events have an amazing understanding of our political/financial system and the issues. I don't think your giving us enough credit =)


People like Kuchinich because he is one of the only other members of congress to not get corrupted by special interests and their $$$, and his support for Iraq withdrawl.

Also him and his wife are very intelligent, compassionate people.



We are just lucky we have RP, and can support a candidate that practically mirrors 100% of our belief in freedom instead of having to take the next best thing. If there was no Ron Paul I would have registered dem and voted for Kuchinich in their primary. I'd rather an honest man who truly believes an honest socialistic society could work (and who would *actually* end the Iraq war) over a fake proclaiming the joys of freedom and liberty while their campaign is paid for by the special interests.
 
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We pay taxes not only when we make an income, but also when we buy things - corporate taxes, tariffs, fuel taxes, etc. Full understanding this fact leads to understanding that MORE THAN HALF of the money we make goes to the government! Furthermore, understanding how inflation and regulation affects our buying power leads to an understanding that we are only allowed to keep a small fraction of the wealth we create! This isn't just theft, this is slavery!

At the hight of ancient Rome, citizens only had to work 2 days a year to pay their taxes, and I would still call that theft! A voluntary "contract insurance" tax, like Ayn Rand talked about, would be a fair alternative, and would fund all the government that is necessary for a free and prosperous society!
 
Confiscatory Property taxes is one that makes my blood boil. The mindset that any government entity can levy what is essentially 'Rent', to us, to allow us to have controll over what we own is ludicrous. I damn our parents for letting government accumilate this much power.

That's exactly right - property tax has been probably the one major "wanna go freakin insane" issue I have, and have had since I first heard of it. It amounts to paying rent to the gov't for the privilege of using their property. It can only be described as rent - because if you fail to pay, they take their property back.

This is probably my single-most angry issue of everything so far. Maybe even angrier than patriot act and thought crimes bill. I can't tell you how many times I have refused to pay my property tax, stood out on my front porch with a rifle and said "let em come!"

But my family, being afraid for me, would pay the tax that I found so dreadfully evil, if only to forestall a Ruby Ridge on my behalf. I have told them not to pay my way for anything. But I cannot in good conscience pay RENT to the gov't for property I own. I can't pay it because it's wrong, but after so many years now, I know that my family (no matter what I say) will pay it for me, because THEY know if they don't, there will be an ugly clash on primetime news one day when they come to seize my home and land for back property tax.

I cannot overstate how deeply angry this issue makes me. If Thomas Jefferson were here, he'd be advocating armed rebellion over this issue alone. But the sheeple go on paying the gov't rent for the properties they think they own, shrugging on like nothing is wrong. And whenever the concept of property tax comes up in my presence, my eyes glow and I spit. I review in my mind the locations of my rifle and ammo so that I can find them blindfolded, and I think -- yeah, I may die over a stupid principle, but this is one of the most fundamental principles of freedom there is. And people don give a friggin damn!
 
"On what principled basis do you declare that all taxation is theft?"

All taxation is the imposition of the will of one group (which in a democracy is the majority) on to the individual without the individual's consent. If 51% of the populations votes for a new tax to fund universal health care, the 49% who did not consent must pay that new tax or face a prison sentence/fine. Taxation is a violent imposition of one party's will onto another.
 
On what principled basis do you declare that all taxation is theft?

God ordained taxation to finance the Old Testament theocratic state.

God through the Holy Spirit enforced collectivist resource distribution in the early apostolic church.

And the Constitution authorizes two forms of taxation.

Congressman Ron Paul is against unconstitutional taxation, not all taxation.

On what principled basis do you declare that all taxation is not theft?

Because some dudes wrote a book, or some other dudes wrote a political treatise, neither of which I signed?

Taxation may be biblically justified, or dictated by our Constitution, but neither of those arguments changes the fact that taxation is the forcible taking of the fruit of a person's efforts.

By any form of logic, that still means taxation = theft; justified theft, in your mind, but theft nonetheless. Let's not dress it up with pretty terminology and pretend it's not something that it so obviously is.
 
Confiscatory Property taxes is one that makes my blood boil. The mindset that any government entity can levy what is essentially 'Rent', to us, to allow us to have controll over what we own is ludicrous. I damn our parents for letting government accumilate this much power.

There was an article in the paper here over the weekend, where a municipality is setting up a work program so that Seniors who can't pay their property taxes can volunteer for government work assignments to work off their taxes. If that's not absolutely obscene, and a pure case of slavery to the state, I don't know what is!
 
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